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I don't mind deleting the off topics...just takes an extra second or two,
depending on how many there are. Have a happy weekend! Tony Huntington Beach,CA -----Original Message----- From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of Shelly Hurd Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 8:24 AM To: Subject: [IBC] Admin - R.A.B. - Long List Members, In the past two weeks we have seen an increasing number of argumentative / off topic posts / and increasing numbers of spam posts all received through rec.arts.bonsai. These posts not only waste my time, they waste yours, and fill our archives with what can only be politely described as garbage. We/I have three alternatives: (and others have already said I should not open this up for discussion). So for 24 hours or so let's discuss. I strongly urge any and all lurkers out there to join in this discussion. After that I will close discussion and do what I feel needs to be done. 1) Put up with it. Continue to issue pleas for it not to happen (mostly disregarded and which also fill the archives). I need to say here, that those of you on the list know that I prefer to let most topics run their course, without intervention from me. I'll tell you that several members ask for my intervention or stronger list management from time to time but I try NOT to become the final arbiter of what is or isn't okay for us to discuss as long as it's somehow tied to bonsai. Tom's limericks for example were a wonderful relief for me when they returned (thanks Tom). 2) Sever our link with RAB. Bingo, those who only wish to be spammers/trolls or whatever description you wish to use will no longer have access to all of us unless they Join The List. Of course if they do join, I could then be sterner in the control of posts clear to the point of banishment from the list. Here I need to add that -- I -- found the LIST via RAB. I don't know that I would have ever found you folks without it. We're in this to promote the art/hobby (let's not quibble) of bonsai. Rec.arts lets us be found by newbies. I have no clue right now how many lurkers are out there who read and learn but haven't posted yet. I am willing to post weekly/bi-monthly messages to RAB so that those searching can be invited to the list and find the knowledge they seek. I do know that we currently have 540 subscribed members. 3) Immediately place offenders on a filter list. This will prevent those of us on the mailing list from receiving the problem RAB posts -- unless, of course, someone else on RAB replies to an offending post. (This option would not keep these filtered spammers or other offensive postings from RAB; their posts would continue to show up on RAB). Pressure on our IBC list archives would be relieved -- except for those replies -- since only messages that make it to the list go to the archives. But it would add a lot to my workload. 540 of us. Are you tired of receiving this stuff in your mail. This is, after all is said and done, YOUR LIST. Which would you prefer. For the purpose of open discussion, please post ALL replies to the list. Shelly Hurd - List Owner/Manager ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
As with many, I'm quite skilled in the use of my delete button, and I use
mailwasher to preview mail before downloading it to my machine. Trolls and spammers happen, and while i wish they didn't, well, they do. I have long thought that being joined at the hip with RAB was botha blessing and a curse. We really have no way to determine the impact. There's a lot of good (people joinign the list ebcause they found the group, people participating only in the group because they don't want to join yet another mailing list), and there's a lot of bad. Perhaps a big part of the problem, and that's where *we* are guilty, is that we respond to spammers and trolls. It's been said often enough, ignore them. As tempting as it is, we shouldn't rise up to the bait. But we do. Inevitably. What gets trolls going is that they get a response. If they don't, they get bored and go away. They would be amused by this thread I would imagine, they managed to cause a lot of consternation. I can keep it or leave it, RAB. But my inclination would be to let the kiddies do their thing and ignore them... Nic ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Group,
Keep the posts coming, I'm also receiving private messages, but I prefer those everyone can see. Most of you have remembered to SNIP my lengthly post, so I say thank you. Please DO remember to SNIP unnecessary portions when you reply. This is MORE about our ARCHIVE space (which we PAY for) than it is about the spammers. I too use my delete key with wreckless abandon. Regards, Shelly Hurd - List Owner/Manager ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
The big problem is not spammers or off topic mails, we will always have
them. The problem is that otherwise serious members responding to these off topic/spam mails on the list. Feel free to discuss whatever, but do it off list. I dont think any of Shellys suggestions cure this problem. This is each and everyones resposibility, what type off list do we want. I would be interesting to hear what you want. That way I (and others) can make up my mind if this is the list for me. Right now itīs not. Henrik Gistvall, Uppsala, Sweden ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
I pretty much agree with most of what Nic and others have said, RAB can be a
pain at times, but deleting the spam and troll messages is no big deal. We aren't really inundated with the stuff, it seems to come and go in spurts. The big thing is to not respond to it, just delete it. The list traffic has slowed to a virtual trickle compared to what it used to be six or eight years ago; if we cut RAB loose it may drop even further. I originally found the list through RAB, although I may have found it without RAB anyway, and I know that there used to be, and maybe still are, some regular contributors who read and post through RAB. Regards, Roger Snipes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicolas Steenhout" I have long thought that being joined at the hip with RAB was botha blessing and a curse. Perhaps a big part of the problem, and that's where *we* are guilty, is that we respond to spammers and trolls. It's been said often enough, ignore them. As tempting as it is, we shouldn't rise up to the bait. But we do. Inevitably. What gets trolls going is that they get a response. If they don't, they get bored and go away. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
On 25 Feb 2005 at 23:14, Henrik Gistvall wrote:
I dont think any of Shellys suggestions cure this problem. Not so. The mailing list administrator has 100% control over what gets on or doesn't get on the list -- if he wants to use it. He can moderate everyone, approving what they send before it appears on the list, or just some folks. He can prohibit any individual from posting to the list. LSoft filters spam from the mailing list (but can't tell RAB spam from legit RAB messages). It can do (or at least does) nothing about trolls and troublemakers on RAB. The List administrator has limited control over users of RAB. He can keep certain RAB users' messages from appearing on the list, but cannot control what they put on RAB. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - List manager emeritus ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
5) Make RAB a moderated newsgroup. It would take a lot of time & effort to
make this change, as the RFD/CFV process takes a minimum of 2 months, but it could be well worth it. Wayne, What's the process? Who'd do it? Sent To whom? How? _I_'d be willing to consider doing it. Jim Lewis - - Hit THINK before you hit SEND ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
I have posted occasionally to the IBC galleries, and slightly more often to
rec.arts.bonsai I'm not subscribed to the IBC mailing list, so I only access the content of r.a.b via a newsgroup reader - this allows me to simply skip the material (both real bonsai content that I'm not interested in, and the 'garbage' Shelly spoke of). I think both provide a good forum for sharing information and ideas. Personally people have been very kind and helpful when I've posted. I would like to continue to have this resource (r.a.b) available to me in the future. -- Michael Cameron Alliston, Ontario, Canada |
I'd vote to leave it the way it is. I get more spam in my email account at
work than I get through this list. I don't remember how I found the list but I think it was through RAB. The concern I have about severing the link is the potential for becoming more of an "elite group of bonsai snobs" (as I've heard the list called) than we are now (No I'm not saying we are - just repeating a perception). When a discussion becomes argumenative or tedious I just start deleting posts. Bill Neff ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Every once in a while I consider joining another group; I listen to the
other group (Jazz, art, whatever) for a while and realize how GREAT this group is- we are literate, we stay on topic, and we are nice. Our problems with spammers and idiots are minor. I like the community of my dear friends on the maillist, but I'd like to reach out to newbies and lurkers on RAB without having to hang out there. My time is limited and I have a dial-up connection! Nina |
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:01:32 +0100, Eltee wrote:
Your isp can ban people from inappropriate posting on USENET, if, the group is classified as a moderated group. I don't know if this one is but surely one of the mods knows. If it is moderated, you can then report the spammers for posting off topic and harrassing posts. The reputable ones, especially the large USENET providers will warn their customers. Not 100% effective but it deters most nuisance posters. That's not spam you're dealing with, Carl. There's a big difference. And your ISP knows it. Besides, your ISP can't ban anybody from posting to Usenet NGs. Usenet is a distributed network. It would take _all_ the ISPs (in the world!) to completely ban somebody. |
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On 25 Feb 2005 at 19:29, Michael Cameron wrote:
I have posted occasionally to the IBC galleries, and slightly more often to rec.arts.bonsai I'm not subscribed to the IBC mailing list, so I only access the content of r.a.b via a newsgroup reader - this allows me to simply skip the material (both real bonsai content that I'm not interested in, and the 'garbage' Shelly spoke of). I think both provide a good forum for sharing information and ideas. Personally people have been very kind and helpful when I've posted. I would like to continue to have this resource (r.a.b) available to me in the future. -- No matter which option Shelly ends up implementing, you will NOT be deprived of rec.arts.bonsai. You MAY, however, be deprived of the 540 of us mailing list members whose messages also go to RAB -- just as RAB messages come to the list. I'd estimate that you'd cut the kind and helpful folks by about 1/2 to 2/3. Jim Lewis - - Hit THINK before you hit SEND ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Thanks Wayne. I'll take a hard look at these pages, but not
this close to the end of a long hard day. ;-) Jim On 26 Feb 2005 at 1:29, Wayne C. Morris wrote: In article 421F644D.15746.54FF1F@localhost, (Jim Lewis) wrote: 5) Make RAB a moderated newsgroup. It would take a lot of time & effort to make this change, as the RFD/CFV process takes a minimum of 2 months, but it could be well worth it. Wayne, What's the process? Who'd do it? Sent To whom? How? _I_'d be willing to consider doing it. I'm not terribly familiar with the process, but I dug up a few links to get you started... This page describes the process: http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/big-eight.html Here's a handbook for would-be moderators: http://www.landfield.com/usenet/moderators/handbook/ Here's a FAQ: http://www.swcp.com/~dmckeon/mod-faq.html And here's a page describing some of the problems & pitfalls: http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/mod-pitfalls.html ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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