What is the usual treatment for hard clay soil, should soil this bad be dug
up and replaced?

What I started with: http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soil1.jpg

"Mike" wrote:

What is the usual treatment for hard clay soil, should soil this bad be dug
up and replaced?

Add all the organic material you can lay your hands on: grass clippings,
leaves, vegetable scraps (see "trench composting"), etc. Surprisingly soon
you'll have the good stuff.


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

"Mike" wrote in message
...
What is the usual treatment for hard clay soil, should soil this bad be
dug
up and replaced?

What I started with: http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soil1.jpg



Clay is usually rich in micronutrients, what it lacks is tilth. Try adding
compost, manure, leaves, anything organic. Some clays can benefit from the
addition of sand as well. Make a promise to yourself that nothing organic
leaves your property. Then either compost or shred and dig directly into the
soil. Don't give up, if you're dedicated you'll be surprised at how fast the
change will happen.
Best of luck,
Steve

In article ,
"Mike" wrote:

What is the usual treatment for hard clay soil, should soil this bad be dug
up and replaced?

What I started with: http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soil1.jpg

Clay is an essential element of garden soil.

Steve and Gary gave you good advice. How quickly do you want this ground
fertile? If yesterday (I'm thinking tomatoes here), you have a lot of
work to do but if you have a couple of months (fall crops), you can take
it easy.

You may want to consider raised beds as well.

You need to get some books, if you don't have them already. The library
is a good place to audition books to see if they fit your needs. Eack
plant has it's own needs, strengths, and weaknesses. To begin, I'd
suggest:
"How to Grow More Vegetables" by John Jeavons
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/...=search-alias%
3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=How+to+Grow+More+Vegetables&x=0&y=0

"Vegetable Gardener' Bible" by Edward C. Smith.
http://www.amazon.com/Vegetable-Gard...Gardening/dp/1
580172121/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815454&sr=1-1

Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775
/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1

Also check library, Master Gardeners, or nearest Ag. Dept. for
information on integrated pest management (I.P.M.).

If you stay in the group, you will get other recommendations as well.

If you want to start planting this weekend, you need to compute the area
of your garden, multiply that by two feet of depth for the volume of
your garden soil. Twenty to thirty percent of that volume should be
sand. If you have solid clay and rocks: 30%. For heavy feeders like
corn, tomatoes, squash, melons, and peppers; add 18 lb. of chicken
manure/100 sq. ft. Half this much on light feeders. Half again for
pulses (beans and peas). Five to 10 percent of you soil should be clean
(unsprayed) plant material, e.g. compost, lawn clippings, leaves,
alfalfa pellets). Some rock phosphate and bone meal (use according to
directions) would be good along a dusting of wood ashes, if you have
them. If not, don't worry about it.

I'd suggest that you make beds no wider than 4' with paths on both sides.

When you look at a bag of fertilizer, it has three numbers, like
5 - 1 - 1 (typical of fish emulsion) The first number is nitrogen. The
second number is phosphorus, and the last is potassium. Manure contains
all three (see: http://www.plantea.com/manure.htm ), but rock phosphate
and bone meal will add more phosphorus and the wood ashes will add more
potassium.

Recently, we've gotten kinda excited about "Terra Preta" which is
garden soil with charcoal incorporated into it. The smaller the charcoal
the better. Try for 8 lb. per 100 sq. ft. If you use real charcola for
barbecues (not briquettes), or if the wood chips (flavoring) are black
after a barbecue, add them to your garden (the gray ash as well).
http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta

Dig all this into the ground, 2 feet deep if you can (water the ground
in advance) or as deep as you can. This should be the first and last
time you will need to dig.

Once the materials are dug into the ground, cover the garden area with
newspaper, one or two sheets thick ( if you run into a real problem, you
may want to use cardboard but this is usually sufficient. Cover the
newspaper with loose alfalfa so that at least you can't see the
newspaper. Normally, I like to let it sit like this for a couple of
weeks, and watering it from time to time but water lightly for three
days at least, and then plant through the alfalfa and the newspaper.

If you are in the northern hemisphere, you will want your tallest plants
on the north side of the garden so that they won't throw a shadow on the
rest of the garden. Conversely, if you are in the southern hemisphere,
you will place the tall plants on the southern side of the garden.

Only use organic products. Stay away from non-organic herbicides and
pesticides. They may have a place in gardening, but they seem to be very
rare. Also avoid chemical fertilizers, because they are salts and will
kill the microbes (bacteria, fungi, protozoa, nematodes, worms) in your
soil and leave you dependent on buying more. They also leach away
rapidly unlike organic material that slowly breaks down. Organic
gardeners feed the web of life in the soil, and it feeds the plants.

If you have a couple of months before you plant, put down your soil
amendments, cover with newspaper, and then with alfalfa (from a bale).
Water a couple of times a week. Replace alfalfa as needed, so that you
can't see the dirt. You may switch to some other mulch in the future but
alfalfa is a good place to begin.

This will start feeding the microbes, and when it is time to dig, the
digging will be easier.

If you have time, follow Gary's suggestion and google "trench
composting". As Steve said, there is no reason to throw vegetable
scrapes or yard waste away. Put it back where it came from, the soil.

Good luck.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En2TzBE0lp4

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050688.html

Mike wrote:
What is the usual treatment for hard clay soil, should soil this bad
be dug up and replaced?

What I started with: http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soil1.jpg

As others have said you will need to break it up with much organic matter.
And as drainage may be a problem doing this in raised beds can be an
advantage. Also you will get some help breaking it up by adding gypsum
depending on the clay minerals present. Broadly gypsum makes smectitic
clays clump but not kaolinic, right now I cannot find the test used to tell
what you have but there is such a thing if you are prepared to go looking.

As for the decision to remove it and import soil that depends on the
situation. If you have a small area, want quick results and have the money
to spend then replace it. You are looking at the price of new soil, quite a
bit of earth work and somewhere to dump the old soil.

If going this route take care not to build a pond. Assuming you have a
solid layer of clay and dig a big flat hole in it which you fill with nice
well-draining soil. If you have heavy rain your plot has only as far as the
edges of the hole to drain to then it fills up with water as the clay around
it is impervious. Then nearly all your plants die. You need to plan and
build drainage for the whole area as part of the replacement.

David

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

Mike wrote:
What is the usual treatment for hard clay soil, should soil this bad
be dug up and replaced?

What I started with: http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soil1.jpg

As others have said you will need to break it up with much organic matter.
And as drainage may be a problem doing this in raised beds can be an
advantage. Also you will get some help breaking it up by adding gypsum
depending on the clay minerals present. Broadly gypsum makes smectitic
clays clump but not kaolinic, right now I cannot find the test used to tell
what you have but there is such a thing if you are prepared to go looking.

As for the decision to remove it and import soil that depends on the
situation. If you have a small area, want quick results and have the money
to spend then replace it. You are looking at the price of new soil, quite a
bit of earth work and somewhere to dump the old soil.

If going this route take care not to build a pond. Assuming you have a
solid layer of clay and dig a big flat hole in it which you fill with nice
well-draining soil. If you have heavy rain your plot has only as far as the
edges of the hole to drain to then it fills up with water as the clay around
it is impervious. Then nearly all your plants die. You need to plan and
build drainage for the whole area as part of the replacement.

David

On the other hand, I started with rock and clay soil and never had this
problem. You may want to look at the article on clay in Wikipedia and
its links. If this garden spot has had a problem with standing water,
drainage would be wise. The adding of amendments (manure and organic
material) and the turning of the soil, may cause your garden area to
mound which would keep the roots above water in any event.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En2TzBE0lp4

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050688.html

In article
,
Billy wrote:

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

Mike wrote:
What is the usual treatment for hard clay soil, should soil this bad
be dug up and replaced?

What I started with: http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soil1.jpg

As others have said you will need to break it up with much organic matter.
And as drainage may be a problem doing this in raised beds can be an
advantage. Also you will get some help breaking it up by adding gypsum
depending on the clay minerals present. Broadly gypsum makes smectitic
clays clump but not kaolinic, right now I cannot find the test used to tell
what you have but there is such a thing if you are prepared to go looking.

As for the decision to remove it and import soil that depends on the
situation. If you have a small area, want quick results and have the money
to spend then replace it. You are looking at the price of new soil, quite
a
bit of earth work and somewhere to dump the old soil.

If going this route take care not to build a pond. Assuming you have a
solid layer of clay and dig a big flat hole in it which you fill with nice
well-draining soil. If you have heavy rain your plot has only as far as
the
edges of the hole to drain to then it fills up with water as the clay
around
it is impervious. Then nearly all your plants die. You need to plan and
build drainage for the whole area as part of the replacement.

David

On the other hand, I started with rock and clay soil and never had this
problem. You may want to look at the article on clay in Wikipedia and
its links. If this garden spot has had a problem with standing water,
drainage would be wise. The adding of amendments (manure and organic
material) and the turning of the soil, may cause your garden area to
mound which would keep the roots above water in any event.

After all that good advice on clay soil - I will just add the book:

"Gardening - when it counts" by Steve Solomon.
ISBN-10: 086571553X
ISBN-13: 978-0865715530

The author has good advice on mending clay soil.

Enjoy Life ... Dan

--
Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan.

"Mike" wrote in message
...
What is the usual treatment for hard clay soil, should soil this bad be
dug
up and replaced?

What I started with: http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soil1.jpg

Are you sure it's clay? The dirt looks salt affected to me but it's a bit
hard to really know without being able to see anything of the soil
structure.

In article
,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Mike" wrote in message
...
What is the usual treatment for hard clay soil, should soil this bad be
dug
up and replaced?

What I started with: http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soil1.jpg

Are you sure it's clay? The dirt looks salt affected to me but it's a bit
hard to really know without being able to see anything of the soil
structure.

I would not replace the clay, if it is clay. Soil test can help. Add
organic materials to it. Then possibly create 4x25x1 foot mounds of good
topsoil and more organic stuff mixed with the clay. Why 4x25? = 100 sq
ft helps in the math for adding nutrients to the soil.

Enjoy Life ... Dan

--
Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan.

What is the usual treatment for hard clay soil, should soil this bad be
dug
up and replaced?

What I started with: http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soil1.jpg

Are you sure it's clay? The dirt looks salt affected to me but it's a bit
hard to really know without being able to see anything of the soil
structure.


Yea its clay alright, and it's heavy, it smears and sticks to shoes after
the rain.

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
...
Mike wrote:
What is the usual treatment for hard clay soil, should soil this bad
be dug up and replaced?

What I started with: http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soil1.jpg

As others have said you will need to break it up with much organic matter.
And as drainage may be a problem doing this in raised beds can be an
advantage. Also you will get some help breaking it up by adding gypsum
depending on the clay minerals present. Broadly gypsum makes smectitic
clays clump but not kaolinic, right now I cannot find the test used to
tell
what you have but there is such a thing if you are prepared to go looking.

As for the decision to remove it and import soil that depends on the
situation. If you have a small area, want quick results and have the
money
to spend then replace it. You are looking at the price of new soil, quite
a
bit of earth work and somewhere to dump the old soil.

If going this route take care not to build a pond. Assuming you have a
solid layer of clay and dig a big flat hole in it which you fill with nice
well-draining soil. If you have heavy rain your plot has only as far as
the
edges of the hole to drain to then it fills up with water as the clay
around
it is impervious. Then nearly all your plants die. You need to plan and
build drainage for the whole area as part of the replacement.

David

It's good to know how I worked this is close to the advise you're giving!

The area of the plot is measures about 50' long and about 12 ' wide, so in
order to make the whole area tillable,
I would need a rotor-tiller and about a ton of organic garden soil and would
cost more that I want.

So I dug out several "lowered beds" as opposed to "raised beds" about six
sections 7' long 32" wide and 8" deep.
That was last year, this year I removed more clay/dirt inbetween and
connected the sections to form two cutouts
23' long along with the same width and depth.

Thing was I ran out of filler for the last 15' of the second cutout.

Me garden project has been going on about 3 years now and found it would
have been best to have
a compost bin from the very start. A few bucks were saved by buying some
topsoil from a mason yard,
but as they say, 'twas a sandy loam.

This season I finally finished a 3 compartment compost bin from wood
scavenged a local Mackdonalds eatery.
The sections are about 32" square with removable partitions.

http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=binc.jpg