In article
,
"Dan L." wrote:

In article
,
Billy wrote:

[Snip...]

You asked " Name one that the government has taken over, Frank, hmmm?"
I named two companies that the government has taken over. They even
fired GM's CEO Rick Wagner. They do count! Going bankrupt or not!

They were taken over at their own request. I cant't believe that they
fired GM's CEO Rick Wagner after the bang up job that he had done
running the company into the ground by building expensive cars on the
cheap that nobody wanted? In a free market, they would have gone belly
up. They grabbed at straws. Why are you so invested in this?

Wrong again! The government like loan sharks, would not loan them money
without becoming a partner in the business.
Banks put conditions on loans, and even banks wouldn't touch these guys.
Why, because they ran their bussinesses into the ground. Was that the
worker's fault, no. The Assembly plants did their job, but the bean
counters sent them junk to assemble.
I have a 1980 Datsun pick-up, I do minimal maintenance to it, and leave
it parked in the elements. It gets me where I want to go, with no
frills, but more importantly, no hassel.
Again suffer slowly or make
it a quick end. It was not the auto industries fault for their demise.
It was the federal governments fault for making all these unfair free
trade agreements. With slave labor nations like China and many other
Asian nations can produce foreign cars with lower cost and increased
quality. Like Ross Perot stated during his presidential campaign "Pass
NAFTA and watch the giant sucking sound of jobs leaving the United
States". Free Trade lowers the living standards of all.
I don't like NAFTA, or globalization either, so you'll no argument from
me there.
I might point out that China, and India sell damn few cars in the US,
but when they do, they'll undercut Detroit products. Maybe we should be
looking at the Volkswagen/Mercedes paradigm. First world companies
competing with third world labor.
Why am I so invested in this? I LIVE IN MICHIGAN!
One out five Jobs here are auto related. I have many friends that had a
good life now destroyed by free triad policies. These policies are just
now having a domino effect on the rest of the U.S. economy.

They could have thought of that when they were building cars that nobody
wanted. They aren't the victims.

Wrong Again! Drive those cheap foreign cars and goods. Time will tell
who the real victims are. Hint: The entire U.S. will be the victim.
Japan and Germany are the countries that are kicking our automotive
butts, and they are both first world countries. I'm out of my element
here but IIRC, Japan organizes it's business around where they want to
be in 5 years or so, in Detroit it is what's the bottom line for next
quarter. It's no way to run a railroad.

I voted for the Green Party. I am not against Obama. I am all for a
single taxpayer health care system. I am for the takeover of the banks.
Obama has no choice in taking over the corporations of the world.
Capitalism has failed and so will Socialism.

There never was capitalism or communism, Dan. It was all smoke and
mirrors to placate the masses. It has always been an oligarchy of
plutocrats. Here, in Russia, and in China it was all the same charade.
Whether you call them "nomenklatura", or "princes", they are the ruling
elite.

From your postings blaming the auto executives. You sound like you are
part of the ruling elite. Smoke and mirrors - take a real good look at
your own core belief system.

Greatest good for the greatest number, I'm good to go.

I just like clarity. If you can teach me something, I'll be eternaly
grateful.

Just read and learn... You should be grateful
At my age? Every day.

Enjoy Life... Dan

Speaking of reading and learning.

I'm reading a book called "Creative propagation : a grower's guide" by
Peter Thompson. Sometimes I wonder how I can be so stupid. When I
germinate my seed, I leave the hot pad and the lights on 24/7 until
germination, wrong, wrong, wrong. As Thompson points out, the plants are
programed for light/dark, and warmer/cooler. The next time I germinate
(herbs: probably next week) the hot pan and the lights both get
connected to the timer. The other thing is plucking freshly germinated
plants out of germination trays by their dicots (dicotyledons), and
repotting into individual cells, instead of waiting until they are older
and more established. My habit has been to take one of my germination
cells, and holding the base of the plants between my thumb and my index
finger, I wash the dirt off the roots, working from the bottom up, and
then teasing (fussing) the plants apart. Out of 60 basil plants, I lost
13. Next time I'm going to experiment with plucking the freshly
germinated plants.

I've finished planting my potatoes (Butter Ball, La Ratte, and French
Fingerling); 45+ plants. Beets are coming up from last year's late
sowing, as are onions, garlic, and shallots. Tallest of the snow peas is
about 20", and they are all working their way up the trellis. I have
some fresh onion starts (germinated), and lettuce that I can start
laying out any time, I think. I have tomatoes about 20" tall, and some
peppers outside in 4" pots (they were growing too fast under lights and
started to set fruit), so I feel comfortable putting out cool season
plants.

One problem is that I have 40 jalapenos that are taking up too much room.
I'll be able to find homes for them eventually, but it is still too cold
to give them away.

I'll be happy when the repotting is finished.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

In article
,
Billy wrote:

Wrong again! The government like loan sharks, would not loan them money
without becoming a partner in the business.
Banks put conditions on loans, and even banks wouldn't touch these guys.
Why, because they ran their bussinesses into the ground. Was that the
worker's fault, no. The Assembly plants did their job, but the bean
counters sent them junk to assemble.
I have a 1980 Datsun pick-up, I do minimal maintenance to it, and leave
it parked in the elements. It gets me where I want to go, with no
frills, but more importantly, no hassel.

I have a made in the USA 1985 Plymouth Acclaim, An excellent little car
that still serves me well and looks great and also no hassle!

Their was a time when the US did have problems. It was a period of time
when the industry changed from oil-based paints to water-born paints.
Oil-based paints created toxic waste and under EPA pressure to change
over to the newer water-born less toxic paints. Also they switched from
dunking the frames to spray painting the frames also creating less toxic
waste. It took several years to perfect the paint formulas (rusting and
old steel). When they got the formula right the foreign car companies
started to take off after learning from the US problems.
Then free trade destroyed them.

My first three Apple computers were made in California.
The last two Apple computers and my iPod were made in China.

I don't like NAFTA, or globalization either, so you'll no argument from
me there.

OK

I might point out that China, and India sell damn few cars in the US,
but when they do, they'll undercut Detroit products. Maybe we should be
looking at the Volkswagen/Mercedes paradigm. First world companies
competing with third world labor.

Not true! China TODAY is the largest manufacture of cars and car parts
in the world! China makes a portion of so-called US domestic cars and
so-called Japanese cars and car parts sold in the US. Some Volkswagens
are now made in Mexico! Few cars are made in the US today - They are
assembled in the US. Parts are mostly made overseas.

I'm reading a book called "Creative propagation : a grower's guide" by
Peter Thompson. Sometimes I wonder how I can be so stupid. When I
germinate my seed, I leave the hot pad and the lights on 24/7 until
germination, wrong, wrong, wrong. As Thompson points out, the plants are
programed for light/dark, and warmer/cooler. The next time I germinate
(herbs: probably next week) the hot pan and the lights both get
connected to the timer. The other thing is plucking freshly germinated
plants out of germination trays by their dicots (dicotyledons), and
repotting into individual cells, instead of waiting until they are older
and more established. My habit has been to take one of my germination
cells, and holding the base of the plants between my thumb and my index
finger, I wash the dirt off the roots, working from the bottom up, and
then teasing (fussing) the plants apart. Out of 60 basil plants, I lost
13. Next time I'm going to experiment with plucking the freshly
germinated plants.

Well we do have something in common after all

I am also reading "Creative Propagation 2nd edition, by Peter Thompson
(2005). ISBN-10: 0881926817.

I will say this is the best book I have on plant propagation.
Much better than American Horticultural book on propagation.

My pads and lights are on a timer 7am-7pm.
Did you really keep the lights on 24/7 or just the heat pads?

On Pot washing on page 69. He seems to think it is a waste of time.
I have always washed and cleaned pots with bleach to prevent transfer of
diseases. He says its a waste of time, few plants are ever lost.
I am all for lazy gardening techniques

From his book, I now have the craving for getting a plant propagation
machine (hydroponics). I posted a past question last month about getting
a machine, four responses, no one had one to see if its worth getting.

I have a cold frame. Now from reading his book I plan on building a
heated frame as well. For now, that green house is only a dream.

I've finished planting my potatoes (Butter Ball, La Ratte, and French
Fingerling); 45+ plants. Beets are coming up from last year's late
sowing, as are onions, garlic, and shallots. Tallest of the snow peas is
about 20", and they are all working their way up the trellis. I have
some fresh onion starts (germinated), and lettuce that I can start
laying out any time, I think. I have tomatoes about 20" tall, and some
peppers outside in 4" pots (they were growing too fast under lights and
started to set fruit), so I feel comfortable putting out cool season
plants.

One problem is that I have 40 jalapenos that are taking up too much room.
I'll be able to find homes for them eventually, but it is still too cold
to give them away.

I'll be happy when the repotting is finished.

Planting time is another six to eight weeks for me. I do have about
sixty pepper plants (4 varieties) and 10 Brandywine Tom's in seed trays
going now. In two weeks I will have several more vegetable seed tray
going. Most of my vegetable seeds will be direct sowing in the ground.
Some day I will try my hand at potatoes. A $1.49 per 5 lb bag of
Michigan Potatoes is one reason I have not yet tried growing them. Since
I do not have a green house - seed starting onions indoors - just stinks!

I do have two flats (72 cells) of each going: Wave Petunias, Petunias,
Impatiens, Salvia, Snap Dragon, Coleus, Marigolds and Zinnias. I feel
your pain when repotting time comes, 16 x 72 ahhhhhhh! Well to tell the
truth it will be mental and physical therapy.

Enjoy Life... Dan

--
Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan.

In article
,
"Dan L." wrote:

In article
,
Billy wrote:

Wrong again! The government like loan sharks, would not loan them money
without becoming a partner in the business.
Banks put conditions on loans, and even banks wouldn't touch these guys.
Why, because they ran their bussinesses into the ground. Was that the
worker's fault, no. The Assembly plants did their job, but the bean
counters sent them junk to assemble.
I have a 1980 Datsun pick-up, I do minimal maintenance to it, and leave
it parked in the elements. It gets me where I want to go, with no
frills, but more importantly, no hassel.

I have a made in the USA 1985 Plymouth Acclaim, An excellent little car
that still serves me well and looks great and also no hassle!

Their was a time when the US did have problems. It was a period of time
when the industry changed from oil-based paints to water-born paints.
Oil-based paints created toxic waste and under EPA pressure to change
over to the newer water-born less toxic paints. Also they switched from
dunking the frames to spray painting the frames also creating less toxic
waste. It took several years to perfect the paint formulas (rusting and
old steel). When they got the formula right the foreign car companies
started to take off after learning from the US problems.
Then free trade destroyed them.

My first three Apple computers were made in California.
The last two Apple computers and my iPod were made in China.

I don't like NAFTA, or globalization either, so you'll no argument from
me there.

OK

I might point out that China, and India sell damn few cars in the US,
but when they do, they'll undercut Detroit products. Maybe we should be
looking at the Volkswagen/Mercedes paradigm. First world companies
competing with third world labor.

Not true! China TODAY is the largest manufacture of cars and car parts
in the world! China makes a portion of so-called US domestic cars and
so-called Japanese cars and car parts sold in the US. Some Volkswagens
are now made in Mexico! Few cars are made in the US today - They are
assembled in the US. Parts are mostly made overseas.

I'm reading a book called "Creative propagation : a grower's guide" by
Peter Thompson. Sometimes I wonder how I can be so stupid. When I
germinate my seed, I leave the hot pad and the lights on 24/7 until
germination, wrong, wrong, wrong. As Thompson points out, the plants are
programed for light/dark, and warmer/cooler. The next time I germinate
(herbs: probably next week) the hot pan and the lights both get
connected to the timer. The other thing is plucking freshly germinated
plants out of germination trays by their dicots (dicotyledons), and
repotting into individual cells, instead of waiting until they are older
and more established. My habit has been to take one of my germination
cells, and holding the base of the plants between my thumb and my index
finger, I wash the dirt off the roots, working from the bottom up, and
then teasing (fussing) the plants apart. Out of 60 basil plants, I lost
13. Next time I'm going to experiment with plucking the freshly
germinated plants.

Well we do have something in common after all

I am also reading "Creative Propagation 2nd edition, by Peter Thompson
(2005). ISBN-10: 0881926817.

I will say this is the best book I have on plant propagation.
Much better than American Horticultural book on propagation.

My pads and lights are on a timer 7am-7pm.
Did you really keep the lights on 24/7 or just the heat pads?

On Pot washing on page 69. He seems to think it is a waste of time.
I have always washed and cleaned pots with bleach to prevent transfer of
diseases. He says its a waste of time, few plants are ever lost.
I am all for lazy gardening techniques

From his book, I now have the craving for getting a plant propagation
machine (hydroponics). I posted a past question last month about getting
a machine, four responses, no one had one to see if its worth getting.

I have a cold frame. Now from reading his book I plan on building a
heated frame as well. For now, that green house is only a dream.

I've finished planting my potatoes (Butter Ball, La Ratte, and French
Fingerling); 45+ plants. Beets are coming up from last year's late
sowing, as are onions, garlic, and shallots. Tallest of the snow peas is
about 20", and they are all working their way up the trellis. I have
some fresh onion starts (germinated), and lettuce that I can start
laying out any time, I think. I have tomatoes about 20" tall, and some
peppers outside in 4" pots (they were growing too fast under lights and
started to set fruit), so I feel comfortable putting out cool season
plants.

One problem is that I have 40 jalapenos that are taking up too much room.
I'll be able to find homes for them eventually, but it is still too cold
to give them away.

I'll be happy when the repotting is finished.

Planting time is another six to eight weeks for me. I do have about
sixty pepper plants (4 varieties) and 10 Brandywine Tom's in seed trays
going now. In two weeks I will have several more vegetable seed tray
going. Most of my vegetable seeds will be direct sowing in the ground.
Some day I will try my hand at potatoes. A $1.49 per 5 lb bag of
Michigan Potatoes is one reason I have not yet tried growing them. Since
I do not have a green house - seed starting onions indoors - just stinks!

I do have two flats (72 cells) of each going: Wave Petunias, Petunias,
Impatiens, Salvia, Snap Dragon, Coleus, Marigolds and Zinnias. I feel
your pain when repotting time comes, 16 x 72 ahhhhhhh! Well to tell the
truth it will be mental and physical therapy.

Enjoy Life... Dan

And as the Sun pulls away from the dock, and our boat sinks into the
harbor, we say a fond farewell to NAFTA, neo-liberalism, and politics,
and say, "helllooooo garden", and close the door behind us ;O)
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

On Mar 31, 1:18*am, Billy wrote:
In article
,
*"Dan L." wrote:





In article
,
*Billy wrote:

Wrong again! The government like loan sharks, would not loan them money
without becoming a partner in the business.
Banks put conditions on loans, and even banks wouldn't touch these guys.
Why, because they ran their bussinesses into the ground. Was that the
worker's fault, no. The Assembly plants did their job, but the bean
counters sent them junk to assemble.
I have a 1980 Datsun pick-up, I do minimal maintenance to it, and leave
it parked in the elements. It gets me where I want to go, with no
frills, but more importantly, no hassel.

I have a made in the USA 1985 Plymouth Acclaim, An excellent little car
that still serves me well and looks great and also no hassle!

Their was a time when the US did have problems. It was a period of time
when the industry changed from oil-based paints to water-born paints.
Oil-based paints created toxic waste and under EPA pressure to change
over to the newer water-born less toxic paints. Also they switched from
dunking the frames to spray painting the frames also creating less toxic
waste. It took several years to perfect the paint formulas (rusting and
old steel). When they got the formula right the foreign car companies
started to take off after learning from the US problems.
Then free trade destroyed them.

My first three Apple computers were made in California.
The last two Apple computers and my iPod were made in China.

I don't like NAFTA, or globalization either, so you'll no argument from
me there.

OK

I might point out that China, and India sell damn few cars in the US,
but when they do, they'll undercut Detroit products. Maybe we should be
looking at the Volkswagen/Mercedes paradigm. First world companies
competing with third world labor.

Not true! China TODAY is the largest manufacture of cars and car parts
in the world! China makes a portion of so-called US domestic cars and
so-called Japanese cars and car parts sold in the US. Some Volkswagens
are now made in Mexico! Few cars are made in the US today - They are
assembled in the US. Parts are mostly made overseas.

I'm reading a book called "Creative propagation : a grower's guide" by
Peter Thompson. Sometimes I wonder how I can be so stupid. When I
germinate my seed, I leave the hot pad and the lights on 24/7 until
germination, wrong, wrong, wrong. As Thompson points out, the plants are
programed for light/dark, and warmer/cooler. The next time I germinate
(herbs: probably next week) the hot pan and the lights both get
connected to the timer. The other thing is plucking freshly germinated
plants out of germination trays by their dicots (dicotyledons), and
repotting into individual cells, instead of waiting until they are older
and more established. My habit has been to take one of my germination
cells, and holding the base of the plants between my thumb and my index
finger, I wash the dirt off the roots, working from the bottom up, and
then teasing (fussing) the plants apart. Out of 60 basil plants, I lost
13. Next time I'm going to experiment with plucking the freshly
germinated plants.

Well we do have something in common after all

I am also reading "Creative Propagation 2nd edition, by Peter Thompson
(2005). ISBN-10: 0881926817.

I will say this is the best book I have on plant propagation.
Much better than American Horticultural book on propagation.

My pads and lights are on a timer 7am-7pm.
Did you really keep the lights on 24/7 or just the heat pads?

On Pot washing on page 69. He seems to think it is a waste of time.
I have always washed and cleaned pots with bleach to prevent transfer of
diseases. He says its a waste of time, few plants are ever lost.
I am all for lazy gardening techniques

From his book, I now have the craving for getting a plant propagation
machine (hydroponics). I posted a past question last month about getting
a machine, four responses, no one had one to see if its worth getting.

I have a cold frame. Now from reading his book I plan on building a
heated frame as well. For now, that green house is only a dream.

I've finished planting my potatoes (Butter Ball, La Ratte, and French
Fingerling); 45+ plants. Beets are coming up from last year's late
sowing, as are onions, garlic, and shallots. Tallest of the snow peas is
about 20", and they are all working their way up the trellis. I have
some fresh onion starts (germinated), and lettuce that I can start
laying out any time, I think. I have tomatoes about 20" tall, and some
peppers outside in 4" pots (they were growing too fast under lights and
started to set fruit), so I feel comfortable putting out cool season
plants.

One problem is that I have 40 jalapenos that are taking up too much room.
I'll be able to find homes for them eventually, but it is still too cold
to give them away.

I'll be happy when the repotting is finished.

Planting time is another six to eight weeks for me. I do have about
sixty pepper plants (4 varieties) and 10 Brandywine Tom's in seed trays
going now. In two weeks I will have several more vegetable seed tray
going. Most of my vegetable seeds will be direct sowing in the ground.
Some day I will try my hand at potatoes. A $1.49 per 5 lb bag of
Michigan Potatoes is one reason I have not yet tried growing them. Since
I do not have a green house - seed starting onions indoors - just stinks!

I do have two flats (72 cells) of each going: Wave Petunias, Petunias,
Impatiens, Salvia, Snap Dragon, Coleus, Marigolds and Zinnias. I feel
your pain when repotting time comes, 16 x 72 ahhhhhhh! Well to tell the
truth it will be mental and physical therapy.

Enjoy Life... Dan

And as the Sun pulls away from the dock, and our boat sinks into the
harbor, we say a fond farewell to NAFTA, neo-liberalism, and politics,
and say, "helllooooo garden", and close the door behind us ;O)
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3l...inn_page.html- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sounds good to me, if just all these *******s would leave us alone to
enjoy our golden years.