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#16
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
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#17
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
"Steve" wrote in message ...
Everything remains very simple to calculate until you bring the goat into the formula. Ya. True to a certain extent. The Chinese say they can raise enuf veggies to feed one person on 1 acre of land. The Chinese diet is primarily vegetables, with smaller amounts of meat and grain. These low tech diets supplement the vegetables primarily with pork and duck as their main type of meat. While a human can raise his food in a cultivated plot of ground, livestock require acres of vegitation to survive.. We all think of a goat or pig thriving on kitchen scraps. Not nearly enough, especially since you are going to be only one person and living on a vegetarian diet. Actually, I believe the best diet in the world is eaten by Asians and Polynesians. They do raise their own vegetables, the scraps are fed to pigs. These pigs in turn also get sustainance from the jungles and riverbanks. When the pigs are of the correct size they're butchered. Pig scraps in turn get fed to other pigs and poultry. Most low tech people live in families, tribes, communities. They don't isolate themselves as westerners do. The very idea of one single person providing for ALL their own needs would not even compute. Because of trade, people can have foods of various kinds, so one person doesn't have to do EVERYTHING. A pig would be chopped up, and sections traded for other things. If someone lives in a developed area, they can also take unwanted animals which they do not have to raise themselves. Or...they can trade. You most likely will have to purchase feed for a few chickens OR the person can trade a chicken dinner, or a few chickens for grain. to be productive. Raising grain requires additional land plus equipment and labor to just raise it for your livestock. Also, just a question. How will you maintain an internet connection if you are off the grid?? Steve |
#18
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
1.5 acres if you like potatoes. Hope you have better luck than the Irish.
Ian Stirling wrote in message ... In misc.survivalism Down Under On The Bucket Farm wrote: Hi Everybody, I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc. One issue is the question of how much physical space would be needed to grow enough food to completely support myself? The answer kind of depends if you'r in the middle of the Amazon, Antarctica, or Austria. |
#19
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
".......I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to
buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc ......." If you put up a couple of poly tunnels, then catch the water from them and your dwelling into a quarter acre lake you could also keep yourself in fish. But really this question is like "How long is a piece of string?" I would get as much land as you can afford then you can develop as much as you find you need. You say on your own, but things could change and you might want to support more than just yourself, so spare land would be useful. If you have no other use for it then graze an animal or two for sale to give useful cash. Remember for meat it is more sensible to keep things like poultry and rabbits than larger animals as they are table ready in weeks rather than months or even years. -- David Hill Abacus nurseries www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk ***2004 catalogue now available*** |
#20
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:11:23 -0600, "Bob Peterson"
said: Lots of people claim lots of things. I would be inclined to do some personal research before I would just my life to something I saw in a book. This type of farming is very difficult to sustain and takes a lot of work. You could well be in deep trouble if you were forced to stop work for a week or two due to injury, illness, or some other reason. or what if a storm came through and destroyed your crops? or a horde of grasshoppers? even a herd of deer could decimate your garden very quickly. personally I suspect you can do a lot on 5 good acres with a continuous water source, but I am leery of trusting my life to such a small area. I remember an old saying "Which can you spare more of ? Back or Brians ? " I use the raised bed method of gardening. My total garden size is less than 1/4 acres and I trow away 3 times as much food as my family (5 in all) eat in a years time from this garden. Its a lot of work keeping the soil good. Chicken wire and 2x4 frames keep the deer and harsh rains from destorying the garden. A small green house gives me a big jump on the growing season. Of course this is only a veggie garden, I would need far more land to grow grain. BTW, for my familys needs, its by far cheaper for me to buy or barter grain than it is to grow it. |
#21
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 06:56:32 -0800, Down Under On The Bucket Farm
wrote: So... How many acres of flat, farm-able land will I need? I don't know, but I grew a years worth of garlic (fresh) and tomatoes (canned) on about 400 square feet (0.009 acres?) of composted and mulched soil this past year. My limitation is sun, due to so many trees nearby. But I would definetly believe the figures that it doesn't take a whole lot of land to live well. At 2 dollars per pound for tomatoes at the store, we racked in a couple hundred dollars worth...it was a good tomato year in the east. Weather and access to water is also another variable in acreage numbers. A greenhouse or sunroom will also do wonders in lengthening the season. Dan nw NJ |
#22
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
"North" wrote in message ... On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:11:23 -0600, "Bob Peterson" said: Lots of people claim lots of things. I would be inclined to do some personal research before I would just my life to something I saw in a book. This type of farming is very difficult to sustain and takes a lot of work. You could well be in deep trouble if you were forced to stop work for a week or two due to injury, illness, or some other reason. or what if a storm came through and destroyed your crops? or a horde of grasshoppers? even a herd of deer could decimate your garden very quickly. personally I suspect you can do a lot on 5 good acres with a continuous water source, but I am leery of trusting my life to such a small area. I remember an old saying "Which can you spare more of ? Back or Brians ? " I use the raised bed method of gardening. My total garden size is less than 1/4 acres and I trow away 3 times as much food as my family (5 in all) eat in a years time from this garden. Its a lot of work keeping the soil good. Chicken wire and 2x4 frames keep the deer and harsh rains from destorying the garden. A small green house gives me a big jump on the growing season. Of course this is only a veggie garden, I would need far more land to grow grain. BTW, for my familys needs, its by far cheaper for me to buy or barter grain than it is to grow it. You can grow a lot of veggies in a small garden, but veggies are not really the bulk of anyone's diet (or at least should not be). The OP was talking about going off in the middle of nowhere and relying entirely on his plot of land for all his needs. First off, its pretty silly as you will not be able to grow/make a lot of things you will need (like clothing, drugs, glassware, tools, etc, etc, etc...). These are things you will either have to stockpile or trade with someone who can make them for you. As for food, you really need reliable sources of protein. meat protein is the best (although vegans may argue with you on that). Poultry and their eggs, fish, and wild game are probably the most cost effective way to get your protein. But you have to feed the captive critters and free ranging it probably is not the answer. So you will need something to feed your chickens (insert rabbits, goats, turkeys, whatever your favorite critter to eat is). You either have to grow that or acquire it from someone else. Growing grain is not trivial on such a small scale, in many ways its much easier on a harge scale.. The scale is so small, mechanization is impractical, so you are forced to work 15 hours a day to bring in a small grain crop to feed the critters. You can also divert some of that to your own uses, but then you have to grow even more. The point I was trying to get through (and probably failed) was that the more skills you have to have the less likely you are to be competent in any of them. Intensive gardening is something I have a little experience with and its something you spend a lot of time and effort on to grow enough food to be useful. And if you have to skip as short a period of time as even a week of tending to your crops, you may never catch up. Before I would trust my life to such a scheme, i would want to do some personal research - like planting a small scale intensive garden and keeping track of just how much work it is, and how much food was gleaned from it. Keep in mind that in the scenario you envision you will need to work with non-hybrid seeds which have a lot of disadvantages compared to hyrbid seeds. You will need to learnt te difference and how to save seeds for the next crop. This in itself can be a lot of work. I have tried this as well - and trust me the few dollars saved on seeds is not worth it, unless of course you have no alternative. :-) BTW - 1/4 acre sounds like a small plot, but its a huge amount of work. Its about 1/4 the size of the garden we planted every summer when I was a kid. We probably spent a total of 20-40 hours a week keeping it up. |
#23
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:34:12 -0600, "Bob Peterson"
said: "North" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:11:23 -0600, "Bob Peterson" said: Lots of people claim lots of things. I would be inclined to do some personal research before I would just my life to something I saw in a book. This type of farming is very difficult to sustain and takes a lot of work. You could well be in deep trouble if you were forced to stop work for a week or two due to injury, illness, or some other reason. or what if a storm came through and destroyed your crops? or a horde of grasshoppers? even a herd of deer could decimate your garden very quickly. personally I suspect you can do a lot on 5 good acres with a continuous water source, but I am leery of trusting my life to such a small area. I remember an old saying "Which can you spare more of ? Back or Brians ? " I use the raised bed method of gardening. My total garden size is less than 1/4 acres and I trow away 3 times as much food as my family (5 in all) eat in a years time from this garden. Its a lot of work keeping the soil good. Chicken wire and 2x4 frames keep the deer and harsh rains from destorying the garden. A small green house gives me a big jump on the growing season. Of course this is only a veggie garden, I would need far more land to grow grain. BTW, for my familys needs, its by far cheaper for me to buy or barter grain than it is to grow it. You can grow a lot of veggies in a small garden, but veggies are not really the bulk of anyone's diet (or at least should not be). The OP was talking about going off in the middle of nowhere and relying entirely on his plot of land for all his needs. First off, its pretty silly as you will not be able to grow/make a lot of things you will need (like clothing, drugs, glassware, tools, etc, etc, etc...). These are things you will either have to stockpile or trade with someone who can make them for you. As for food, you really need reliable sources of protein. meat protein is the best (although vegans may argue with you on that). Poultry and their eggs, fish, and wild game are probably the most cost effective way to get your protein. But you have to feed the captive critters and free ranging it probably is not the answer. So you will need something to feed your chickens (insert rabbits, goats, turkeys, whatever your favorite critter to eat is). You either have to grow that or acquire it from someone else. Growing grain is not trivial on such a small scale, in many ways its much easier on a harge scale.. The scale is so small, mechanization is impractical, so you are forced to work 15 hours a day to bring in a small grain crop to feed the critters. You can also divert some of that to your own uses, but then you have to grow even more. The point I was trying to get through (and probably failed) was that the more skills you have to have the less likely you are to be competent in any of them. Intensive gardening is something I have a little experience with and its something you spend a lot of time and effort on to grow enough food to be useful. And if you have to skip as short a period of time as even a week of tending to your crops, you may never catch up. Before I would trust my life to such a scheme, i would want to do some personal research - like planting a small scale intensive garden and keeping track of just how much work it is, and how much food was gleaned from it. Keep in mind that in the scenario you envision you will need to work with non-hybrid seeds which have a lot of disadvantages compared to hyrbid seeds. You will need to learnt te difference and how to save seeds for the next crop. This in itself can be a lot of work. I have tried this as well - and trust me the few dollars saved on seeds is not worth it, unless of course you have no alternative. :-) BTW - 1/4 acre sounds like a small plot, but its a huge amount of work. Its about 1/4 the size of the garden we planted every summer when I was a kid. We probably spent a total of 20-40 hours a week keeping it up. I agree with everything you said. I'm very lucky because my neighbor owns a deer farm. Plenty of deer meat, more than I could ever eat in 10 life times. I have set up an area on my land for wild rabbits to flourish. Its an area with small shrubs and wild carrots. I purposely place brush piles so the rabbits can have a place to hide and live. And it works !! One thing that a lot of folks forget is all the wild food growing. I live in the Patomic highlands of West Virginia, we have 6 inches of snow on the ground. Right now (at 11:45 PM in 15 degree F temps) I can take a 5 gal bucket and within 1 hour I can gather enough greens to eat for a week. They taste like shit, but tabasco sauce helps a lot G In the spring and summer, I can gather the same amount in 5 minutes and its much better tasting. (ya just gotta know what to look for ) There is a lot of edibles growing in winter, they just taste like shit. With that in mind, the best tasting edibles in winter are the things that breath and walk. If you ever get a chance to cook with "Lemon Grass", try larding a rabbit with bacon and lemon grass, Low temp bake for a couple of hours, its heaven. FWIW, Larding is when you cut 1x2 inch cuts all over the rabbit and stuffing the cuts with uncooked bacon or some kind of tasty fat G. |
#24
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
Although people have talked about the work, the land, the crops, and maybe
the animals, you really have to think about your caloric needs, and what is practical/possible to grow to supply those. Vegetables are great, (my favorites), but most are low in calories, so they won't supply the energy you need to do the farming. For that you need concentrated sources of carbohydrates. A large quantity of potatoes can be grown on small plots, which is how the Irish survived when most of their most farmable land was owned by the English. When potatoes are your SOLE source of carbohydrates, you are probably talking something like 5 pounds per day....Grains like wheat need a fair amount of land to grow, as only a tiny part of the plant translates into useable food. Most cereal grains, like wheat,corn and oats, need more land, but less intensive cultivation, except at planting and harvest time. (In biblical times, didn't they just scratch the ground and then throw the seed on the field out of bags or something?) Some of the small grains eaten whole, such as quinoa and amaranth, could probably be grown on a much smaller plot and could provide a good carbohydrate alternative to potatoes - as well as adding some needed variety - but only if you like their taste. I think buckwheat can also be grown compactly, as it is not a true grain. Root vegetables such as turnips, parsnips, and rutabagas are also pretty good sources of carbohydrates - and carrots too, if eaten in quantity. Hard winter squash is also a pretty good source of carbohydrates. That might need more land if you are going to plant enough to last through the winter. With a total vegetarian diet, you will also need to think about sources of fat. It would be a good idea to plant a nut tree - however, it might be 15-25 years before you get an impressive crop. Beans, dried peas, and other legumes can supply the majority of protein needs, but again, you have to like them - and you have to have a successful crop. Most people would want to have eggs for an additional protein source, but keeping chickens adds another layer of work to a one-person operation. If you wanted milk, then you are talking about cows and/or goats, which again, add another layer of work - and more land requirements - as well as setting aside some land solely for grazing. In some cultures, certain types of insects are eaten as sources of protein - for example, termites. But that might be hard for a person from Western Cultures to stomach. "Down Under On The Bucket Farm" wrote in message ... Hi Everybody, I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc. One issue is the question of how much physical space would be needed to grow enough food to completely support myself? I am willing to eat anything that is healthy, preferably remaining vegetarian (although I am quite willing to have chickens for eggs, and perhaps a goat for milk.) This would involve one person living alone, in decent physical condition, willing to do hard work and learn whatever is needed. I realise that the yearly food yield will have to be spread out via preserving, canning, etc. My "day job" can be done remotely, via wireless Internet connection, with flexible hours, thus leaving time and opportunity for extensive gardening/farming, etc. I do understand the risk of, for example, having a bad year, bad weather, etc, and so would have money set aside to buy food in that case. But the plan is to avoid that if at all possible. I live in New Zealand, with plenty of rain in winter, but also reasonable sunshine in summer. So... How many acres of flat, farm-able land will I need? Thanks in advance! -V. -- Guide To DIY Living http://www.self-reliance.co.nz (Work in progress) |
#25
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
I realise that the yearly food yield will have to be spread out via preserving, canning, etc. My "day job" can be done remotely, via wireless Internet connection, with flexible hours, thus leaving time and opportunity for extensive gardening/farming, etc. I get the feeling that the OP here thinks that the gardening and canning and preserving can be done in his spare time while working "flexible hours" or he can work "flexible hours" in his spare time from working at gardening, canning and preserving. I was raise on a subistance farm (actual a regular farm where we raised 90% of what we eat). We didn't have elect. or running water and my father farmed with horses up until the mid '40s. Yes I even went to a one room school house until I went into 5th grade. Ok, my point. It is damn near a full time job to garden on a large scale for full subsistance. My mother and father both worked in the family garden in addition to tilling the soil to produce cash crops. When it came canning time I was weeks of very hard hot work to 'put up' hundreds of quarts or pints of fruits and vegitables. This is serious business since we didn't buy any canned goods. For meat we would butcher one hog for the year and split a beef cow with about 6-8 other families.. Without electricity we were forced to rent a freezer locker in 'the locker plant' in the nearest town.. Chickens are a given on any subsistance farm, mainly for the eggs. The only time we eat chicken was when they would get a little older and stop laying.. By this time they were only suited for broiling or boiling.. Nothing like KFC. Usually we could have chicken a couple times a month.. With out refrig. it was difficult to gather and keep enough eggs to sell commercially. Chicken feed was something that we often had to purchase. Just some of my memories. Steve |
#26
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 23:40:59 -0800, "Steve" wrote:
I get the feeling that the OP here thinks that the gardening and canning and preserving can be done in his spare time while working "flexible hours" or he can work "flexible hours" in his spare time from working at gardening, canning and preserving. I was raise on a subistance farm (actual a regular farm where we raised 90% of what we eat). We didn't have elect. or running water and my father farmed with horses up until the mid '40s. Yes I even went to a one room school house until I went into 5th grade. Ok, my point. It is damn near a full time job to garden on a large scale for full subsistance. My mother and father both worked in the family garden in addition to tilling the soil to produce cash crops. When it came canning time I was weeks of very hard hot work to 'put up' hundreds of quarts or pints of fruits and vegitables. This is serious business since we didn't buy any canned goods. For meat we would butcher one hog for the year and split a beef cow with about 6-8 other families.. Without electricity we were forced to rent a freezer locker in 'the locker plant' in the nearest town.. Chickens are a given on any subsistance farm, mainly for the eggs. The only time we eat chicken was when they would get a little older and stop laying.. By this time they were only suited for broiling or boiling.. Nothing like KFC. Usually we could have chicken a couple times a month.. With out refrig. it was difficult to gather and keep enough eggs to sell commercially. Chicken feed was something that we often had to purchase. Just some of my memories. Mine too. About the only things we bought at the store were salt, sugar, baking soda, and coffee. Our way out was to rent enough land to actually make a living at farming, and do all our grocery shopping at the grocery store instead of trying to grow it ourselves. That was a much better use of our time and resources. Eventually, the only things we grew for the table at home were tomatoes. Gary |
#27
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
snip Grains are not that difficult, and can be harvested with a hand mower (scythe), and hand winnowed and prepared. 1/4 acre of buckwheat / wheat / other grains will provide enough for a family of four usually when combined with other foods. Here is a good source for grains and other biointensive gardening info / supplies: http://www.bountifulgardens.org/seed...rains-seed.htm l I think five acres would be more than sufficient if you apply permaculture type efforts. Remember one effort / multiple returns is best. Strongly advise at least one acre pond, with running water, or solar well to keep it full. Fish are protean, and can also attract ducks. Consider foraging as addition to farming. Look at Tappan on Survival for some more subsistance farming / foraging ideas. |
#28
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
"House Todorovich" wrote in message ... snip Grains are not that difficult, and can be harvested with a hand mower (scythe), and hand winnowed and prepared. 1/4 acre of buckwheat / wheat / other grains will provide enough for a family of four usually when combined with other foods. Ever actually done this? or is this just an 'educated guess"? Here is a good source for grains and other biointensive gardening info / supplies: http://www.bountifulgardens.org/seed...rains-seed.htm l I think five acres would be more than sufficient if you apply permaculture type efforts. Remember one effort / multiple returns is best. Strongly advise at least one acre pond, with running water, or solar well to keep it full. Fish are protean, and can also attract ducks. Consider foraging as addition to farming. Look at Tappan on Survival for some more subsistance farming / foraging ideas. |
#29
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
Down Under On The Bucket Farm wrote:
...I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc. One issue is the question of how much physical space would be needed to grow enough food to completely support myself?... I do understand the risk of, for example, having a bad year, bad weather, etc, and so would have money set aside to buy food in that case. But the plan is to avoid that if at all possible. I live in New Zealand, with plenty of rain in winter, but also reasonable sunshine in summer... No definite answer to this one. Too many variables. However, there is a book, written probably in the 1940's (judging from the illustrations), called "5 Acres and Independence", author's name escapes me at the moment, but I think it starts with a K. It's full of receipes for various necessities such as building your own septic tank, root crop storage, etc., so although it's dated it might contain something of value. You will have to grow more than you need, because you will need some money to buy (or trade for) stuff you can't grow (e.g. salt [unless you have a salt mine or live by the sea]) Just Googled the book, author Maurice Kains. Available at Amazon.com (reprint, paperback $7.95US, some used copies cheaper). Check your local library. |
#30
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
If you look at Buffalo Bird Woman's Garden: http://digital.library.upenn.edu/wom...en/garden.html You can see what they did for subsistence living in North America 150 years ago. Corn & squash for carbohydrates, beans for protein, sunflowers for fats, ground cherries for vitamins. (She mentions buffalo scrotums & deer antlers as tools, but I don't recall if she says how much meat they needed by hunting.) Jeavons books aim at something like what you are interested in: http://www.bountifulgardens.org/grow...e-books.html#1 I don't know if anyone ever actually lived exclusively on the produce they grew in these little plots. Looks pretty hard to me. Hope this helps, -- Bob Mounger gregpresley wrote: Although people have talked about the work, the land, the crops, and maybe the animals, you really have to think about your caloric needs, and what is practical/possible to grow to supply those. Vegetables are great, (my favorites), but most are low in calories, so they won't supply the energy you need to do the farming. For that you need concentrated sources of carbohydrates. A large quantity of potatoes can be grown on small plots, which is how the Irish survived when most of their most farmable land was owned by the English. When potatoes are your SOLE source of carbohydrates, you are probably talking something like 5 pounds per day....Grains like wheat need a fair amount of land to grow, as only a tiny part of the plant translates into useable food. Most cereal grains, like wheat,corn and oats, need more land, but less intensive cultivation, except at planting and harvest time. (In biblical times, didn't they just scratch the ground and then throw the seed on the field out of bags or something?) Some of the small grains eaten whole, such as quinoa and amaranth, could probably be grown on a much smaller plot and could provide a good carbohydrate alternative to potatoes - as well as adding some needed variety - but only if you like their taste. I think buckwheat can also be grown compactly, as it is not a true grain. Root vegetables such as turnips, parsnips, and rutabagas are also pretty good sources of carbohydrates - and carrots too, if eaten in quantity. Hard winter squash is also a pretty good source of carbohydrates. That might need more land if you are going to plant enough to last through the winter. With a total vegetarian diet, you will also need to think about sources of fat. It would be a good idea to plant a nut tree - however, it might be 15-25 years before you get an impressive crop. Beans, dried peas, and other legumes can supply the majority of protein needs, but again, you have to like them - and you have to have a successful crop. Most people would want to have eggs for an additional protein source, but keeping chickens adds another layer of work to a one-person operation. If you wanted milk, then you are talking about cows and/or goats, which again, add another layer of work - and more land requirements - as well as setting aside some land solely for grazing. In some cultures, certain types of insects are eaten as sources of protein - for example, termites. But that might be hard for a person from Western Cultures to stomach. "Down Under On The Bucket Farm" wrote in message ... Hi Everybody, I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc. One issue is the question of how much physical space would be needed to grow enough food to completely support myself? I am willing to eat anything that is healthy, preferably remaining vegetarian (although I am quite willing to have chickens for eggs, and perhaps a goat for milk.) This would involve one person living alone, in decent physical condition, willing to do hard work and learn whatever is needed. I realise that the yearly food yield will have to be spread out via preserving, canning, etc. My "day job" can be done remotely, via wireless Internet connection, with flexible hours, thus leaving time and opportunity for extensive gardening/farming, etc. I do understand the risk of, for example, having a bad year, bad weather, etc, and so would have money set aside to buy food in that case. But the plan is to avoid that if at all possible. I live in New Zealand, with plenty of rain in winter, but also reasonable sunshine in summer. So... How many acres of flat, farm-able land will I need? Thanks in advance! -V. -- Guide To DIY Living http://www.self-reliance.co.nz (Work in progress) |
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