In article ,
"Ray Drouillard" wrote:

"Ivan McDonagh" wrote in message
7.67...
"Ray Drouillard" wrote in
:


"Terry Collins" wrote in message
...
Ivan McDonagh wrote:

SNIP


Don't forget the big reason:

The food tastes so much better!


Ray


It's this sort of anectodal evidence, Ray, that I'm curious about -
one
of my friends had a load of vegies from my totally organic garden last
year and maintained how much better they were than the chemically
grown
ones. Yet I genuinely couldn't say definitely one way or the other ...
sure, they were nicer but was that just a matter of being 5 minutes
old
versus being at least 5 days old?

Thanks for the comment though

Ivan.

I wasn't commenting about organic gardening. I was replying to this
comment:

Umm , I think different people garden for different reasons.

Terry mentioned a lot of good reasons to garden, but the superior
quality of home-grown food is one of the biggest reasons for growing
one's own food.


Ray




Plus it's just plain damn fun to go out to the yard and pick your lunch
and cook it fresh off the plants... :-) Tastier too. :-d At least in my
experience.

Sometimes tho' I have to wonder if it's worth the water bills!

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

,,Cat's Haven Hobby Farm,,Katra at centurytel dot net,,
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

In article ,
"Ray Drouillard" wrote:

"shazzbat" wrote in message
...
snip

But I don't care, there's nothing to beat the smug feeling of knowing
that
you grew what you're eating.

I wonder who did the study. I wonder what veggies were used. Radishes
and lettuce might be difficult, but I have yet to see a store-boughten
peach that comes even close to one that was picked ripe from the tree
(as opposed to being picked green and ripened after being severed from
its source of sugar). The same sort of goes for tomatoes. It isn't as
much an issue of vine-ripening, but there is a taste that comes with
home grown tomatoes that is missing in the store-boughten fare. Perhaps
buying some of the $3.00/pound premium tomatoes would fix that, but I
wouldn't bet on it.


Ray Drouillard

There is nothing on gods green earth more heavenly than a VINE RIPE
tomato fresh off the vine! Most sweet 100 cherry tomatoes never even
make it into the house. G Eat them puppies right off the vine, sun
warmed. ;-d

Fresh picked string beans steamed right off the vine run a close second.
G

I think it is more of a question of freshness. Really, but that's just
my opinion. I also just love to go and pull fresh onions for that day's
brunch.

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

,,Cat's Haven Hobby Farm,,Katra at centurytel dot net,,
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

"shazzbat" wrote in
:


But I don't care, there's nothing to beat the smug feeling of knowing
that you grew what you're eating.

Yes, absolutely!

The fulfilment of a dream of some years of growing my own vegies is the
reason I started in the first place - just for the "smug" factor.

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in factory
fertilisers versus non-factory - I'm sure I will be able to realise my
needs without factory fertiliser but if using factory fertiliser will be
cheaper in terms of land, currency and labour and doesn't necessarily
sacrifice health and/or taste then I'm all for it.


And I could smug for England.

This is some use of the word "smug" with which I'm not familiar


Steve

Ivan.

"shazzbat" wrote in
:


But I don't care, there's nothing to beat the smug feeling of knowing
that you grew what you're eating.

Yes, absolutely!

The fulfilment of a dream of some years of growing my own vegies is the
reason I started in the first place - just for the "smug" factor.

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in factory
fertilisers versus non-factory - I'm sure I will be able to realise my
needs without factory fertiliser but if using factory fertiliser will be
cheaper in terms of land, currency and labour and doesn't necessarily
sacrifice health and/or taste then I'm all for it.


And I could smug for England.

This is some use of the word "smug" with which I'm not familiar


Steve

Ivan.

Terry Collins wrote in
:

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

SNIP

"Organic" to me is a system of certification and thus something is
"organic" if it is certified to be organic. End of story.

Some farmers are making a living being organic famrers. End of story
about cost, etc. So that answers your question in the subject.

Oh yes! I'm not arguing at all against those people who can do it - I
honestly believe that if it was possible for all farms to be independent
of factory fertilisers then that would be best.



Okay, we are forced to live in a capitalist world and the capitalist
world just exploits resources to enable some people to maximise the
amount of money they make at the expense of other people and the
environment.

Although I agree to a certain extent with your statement I don't think I
used that point as a thesis. If I did it was completely unintentional -
much as I dislike the fact, I have accepted that I am living in a
capitalist country and that not everything that is done in the name of
capitalism (or any other form of politics-ism) is necessarily good for
the world.

SNIP

So, if a farmer wants to do what is right by the environment, they
then have to pay for cartage of that organic matter back to his farm,
which for most means that the costs of farming inputs are too high and
they would not have a commerically viable farm. Note, that book was
written in 1948 and transport infrastructure has greatly changed since
then.

This is one of the points that the book makes as I'm sure you know. I'm
aware that transport infrastructure has changed since then but so has the
requirements of a commercially viable farm. That is, as the population has
continued to grow we have either of more product per hectare being required
or more hectares being required. In either event, it seems to me that
whatever cost efficiencies have been gained in transport will be lost
through the greater bulk of material being used.


Instead, farmers tend to produce organic matter on the farm by growing
other crops, e.g, sub-clover with crops to directly provide nitrogen,
pastures that stock eat and defecate, etc.

I wasn't aware that this is large-scale practise. Thanks.

SNIP

From the snipped advice regarding composting, I also compost what I can and
am looking at getting in grass clippings and chook manure to build up the
sand that I currently have.

Perhaps I erred by mentioning the book but I wanted to be clear that I was
not being "anti-organic" and that my questions had, at least, a reasonably
sensible basis.

Ivan.

Terry Collins wrote in
:

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

SNIP

"Organic" to me is a system of certification and thus something is
"organic" if it is certified to be organic. End of story.

Some farmers are making a living being organic famrers. End of story
about cost, etc. So that answers your question in the subject.

Oh yes! I'm not arguing at all against those people who can do it - I
honestly believe that if it was possible for all farms to be independent
of factory fertilisers then that would be best.



Okay, we are forced to live in a capitalist world and the capitalist
world just exploits resources to enable some people to maximise the
amount of money they make at the expense of other people and the
environment.

Although I agree to a certain extent with your statement I don't think I
used that point as a thesis. If I did it was completely unintentional -
much as I dislike the fact, I have accepted that I am living in a
capitalist country and that not everything that is done in the name of
capitalism (or any other form of politics-ism) is necessarily good for
the world.

SNIP

So, if a farmer wants to do what is right by the environment, they
then have to pay for cartage of that organic matter back to his farm,
which for most means that the costs of farming inputs are too high and
they would not have a commerically viable farm. Note, that book was
written in 1948 and transport infrastructure has greatly changed since
then.

This is one of the points that the book makes as I'm sure you know. I'm
aware that transport infrastructure has changed since then but so has the
requirements of a commercially viable farm. That is, as the population has
continued to grow we have either of more product per hectare being required
or more hectares being required. In either event, it seems to me that
whatever cost efficiencies have been gained in transport will be lost
through the greater bulk of material being used.


Instead, farmers tend to produce organic matter on the farm by growing
other crops, e.g, sub-clover with crops to directly provide nitrogen,
pastures that stock eat and defecate, etc.

I wasn't aware that this is large-scale practise. Thanks.

SNIP

From the snipped advice regarding composting, I also compost what I can and
am looking at getting in grass clippings and chook manure to build up the
sand that I currently have.

Perhaps I erred by mentioning the book but I wanted to be clear that I was
not being "anti-organic" and that my questions had, at least, a reasonably
sensible basis.

Ivan.

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

.....snip.....

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in factory
fertilisers versus non-factory -

If that is the case, work out how much your motor vehicle costs to run,
because you will need to factor that into everything you do food wise.

The cheapest food is bulk buying at the markets. The early markets where
all the grocers buy, not the retail/paddy's type. the problem then
becomes with what to do with 40kg bags of carrots, etc. which you can
always compost 50% {;-).


Otherwise, start looking around for supplies of organic matter; manure
and compost.


Perhaps a local restaurant won't mind you taking vege scraps away. If
you are going to handle meat scraps, you really have to know what you
are doing with composting as it can smell = problems with neighbours.

Look at race tracks, they are generally quite happy for people to take
the manure away.

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

.....snip.....

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in factory
fertilisers versus non-factory -

If that is the case, work out how much your motor vehicle costs to run,
because you will need to factor that into everything you do food wise.

The cheapest food is bulk buying at the markets. The early markets where
all the grocers buy, not the retail/paddy's type. the problem then
becomes with what to do with 40kg bags of carrots, etc. which you can
always compost 50% {;-).


Otherwise, start looking around for supplies of organic matter; manure
and compost.


Perhaps a local restaurant won't mind you taking vege scraps away. If
you are going to handle meat scraps, you really have to know what you
are doing with composting as it can smell = problems with neighbours.

Look at race tracks, they are generally quite happy for people to take
the manure away.

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

....snip.....

This is one of the points that the book makes as I'm sure you know. I'm
aware that transport infrastructure has changed since then but so has the
requirements of a commercially viable farm. That is, as the population has
continued to grow we have either of more product per hectare being required
or more hectares being required. In either event, it seems to me that
whatever cost efficiencies have been gained in transport will be lost
through the greater bulk of material being used.

Generally, a farmer is required to produce more with less. So their
yield per acres has to be up and they have less workers and bigger
machinery. And as a general rule (at least in this country - Australia)
they also require more land.

To give you an example. After WWII, my wife's uncle obtain a soldier
settler grant and started dairy farming with 40 head and two farm
assistants. By the time he retired/sold out, he was milking 200 head by
himself.

The land exception is agriculture that is really an industrial process,
e.g. chickens for meat and eggs, aquaculture (modern, not farm dams),
mushroom growing, feedlots (cattle, pigs), some vegetables (lettuce,
tomatoes, cucumbers) etc.


Transport wise, modern trucks are far more powerful, thus carry more
faster, which means the driver is more efficent, but also B-doubles also
means that the driver is also able to carry a double load. This all
reduces the cost component of transport. the increased amount is more to
do with population growth and the sad fact that Australia largely
imports any manufactured item.

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 23:25:51 -0500, "Ray Drouillard"
wrote:


"shazzbat" wrote in message
...

But I don't care, there's nothing to beat the smug feeling of knowing
that
you grew what you're eating.

I wonder who did the study. I wonder what veggies were used. Radishes
and lettuce might be difficult, but I have yet to see a store-boughten
peach that comes even close to one that was picked ripe from the tree
(as opposed to being picked green and ripened after being severed from
its source of sugar). The same sort of goes for tomatoes. It isn't as
much an issue of vine-ripening, but there is a taste that comes with
home grown tomatoes that is missing in the store-boughten fare. Perhaps
buying some of the $3.00/pound premium tomatoes would fix that, but I
wouldn't bet on it.

Yeah, but... "home grown" and "organic" are not the same thing.
Backing up the thread a bit, we come to 'taste tests' between organic
and non-. There's no question that a tomato picked in one's own
garden, or a peach from one's (or one's neighbor's) tree is superior
to well-travelled produce, whether they've been fertilized with
(organic) goat manure or something in a plastic bag.

"Ivan McDonagh" wrote in message
7.67...
"shazzbat" wrote in
:


But I don't care, there's nothing to beat the smug feeling of knowing
that you grew what you're eating.

Yes, absolutely!

The fulfilment of a dream of some years of growing my own vegies is the
reason I started in the first place - just for the "smug" factor.

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in factory
fertilisers versus non-factory - I'm sure I will be able to realise my
needs without factory fertiliser but if using factory fertiliser will be
cheaper in terms of land, currency and labour and doesn't necessarily
sacrifice health and/or taste then I'm all for it.


And I could smug for England.

This is some use of the word "smug" with which I'm not familiar

Great! I'm even more smug now.

Smugger even.

:~)

Steve

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:32:45 +1100, Terry Collins
wrote:

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

....snip.....

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in factory
fertilisers versus non-factory -

If that is the case, work out how much your motor vehicle costs to run,
because you will need to factor that into everything you do food wise.

snip

Otherwise, start looking around for supplies of organic matter; manure
and compost.

Take a look at those two statements. It's *obviously* going to be
cheaper (in terms of auto/truck use) to bring home a few bags of
commercial/chemical/non-'organic' fertilizer than chase around for and
transport manure and compost. If you work in labor costs, cheaper
still. I think the limit in this line was 'organic' advice to keep
manure in a bucket on an apt. balcony rather than commit the 'crime'
of feeding a potted tomato (or rose -- it's been some time) with a
little convenient and readily-available Miracle-Gro.

'Organic' is lovely. Recycling waste of all sorts into useful
nourishment for plants. It's just not too practical for all gardeners.
I *adore* cow manure because it just *looks* so rich and
nourishing...in its plastic 40lb bag which I can bring home in the
trunk of my (compact) car. Shoveling and transporting *real* manure
for a good-sized garden is just not an option. And there's no
guarantee it's 'nature's most perfect food' for plants. At least evil
'chemical' fertilizers can be formulated to supply the necessary
ingredients for many plants.

Perhaps a local restaurant won't mind you taking vege scraps away.

On your bicycle? Or on your back? If a restaurant is separating veg
scraps from used napkins, emptied ashtrays, and plate-scrapings, the
owner is probably saving for his *own* compost pile.

Look at race tracks, they are generally quite happy for people to take
the manure away.

It's your own fault. You introduced the transportation issue. :-)
You're advising the previous poster to spend a couple of days a week
chasing around to restaurants and race tracks to find and transport
large-volume materials to replace a couple of bags of the chemical
nutrients plants require?

I don't understand why 'artificial' fertilizers have such vociferous
opponents. AFAIK, plants don't care whether their nitrogen and
phosphorous comes from cowpats or granules.

The previous poster is looking at real-life issues, and doubtless
already uses all the 'organic' processes he can manage. *His*
cost/benefit analysis appears to have come down on the side of
manufactured fertilizer. Makes sense to me. He's not talking about
wholesale DDT spraying, or lowering the water table to keep his
golfcourse green.

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:12:27 -0000, "shazzbat"
wrote:


"Ivan McDonagh" wrote

"shazzbat" wrote

And I could smug for England.

This is some use of the word "smug" with which I'm not familiar

Great! I'm even more smug now.

Smugger even.

After a recent car accident, I was offered some settlement for "pain
and suffering." While my pain was minor, I replied that I could
'suffer' at Olympic standard. I haven't the self-confidence for
competitive smugging. Although I compete as an amateur.

"Frogleg" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 23:25:51 -0500, "Ray Drouillard"
wrote:


"shazzbat" wrote in message
...

But I don't care, there's nothing to beat the smug feeling of
knowing
that
you grew what you're eating.

I wonder who did the study. I wonder what veggies were used.
Radishes
and lettuce might be difficult, but I have yet to see a
store-boughten
peach that comes even close to one that was picked ripe from the tree
(as opposed to being picked green and ripened after being severed
from
its source of sugar). The same sort of goes for tomatoes. It isn't
as
much an issue of vine-ripening, but there is a taste that comes with
home grown tomatoes that is missing in the store-boughten fare.
Perhaps
buying some of the $3.00/pound premium tomatoes would fix that, but I
wouldn't bet on it.

Yeah, but... "home grown" and "organic" are not the same thing.
Backing up the thread a bit, we come to 'taste tests' between organic
and non-. There's no question that a tomato picked in one's own
garden, or a peach from one's (or one's neighbor's) tree is superior
to well-travelled produce, whether they've been fertilized with
(organic) goat manure or something in a plastic bag.


Some people are purists :-)

I prefer to eat veggies that don't require the removal of chemicals
before eating. Also, whether or not you add ammonium nitrate or
whatever to the soil, having good humus in the soil makes for better
produce. Also, while the plants themselves don't need much in the way
of trace minerals, we need them. You won't find selenium and the like
in a bag of chemical fertilizer, but you'll find a variety of minerals
in the dairy doo, compost, or whatever you are using.


Ray

"Ivan McDonagh" wrote in message
7.67...
"shazzbat" wrote in
:


But I don't care, there's nothing to beat the smug feeling of
knowing
that you grew what you're eating.

Yes, absolutely!

The fulfilment of a dream of some years of growing my own vegies is
the
reason I started in the first place - just for the "smug" factor.

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some
economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in
factory
fertilisers versus non-factory - I'm sure I will be able to realise my
needs without factory fertiliser but if using factory fertiliser will
be
cheaper in terms of land, currency and labour and doesn't necessarily
sacrifice health and/or taste then I'm all for it.

According to my research (to quote Dorothy Ann), the important thing is
to have soil that is rich in organic matter. If you want to supplement
that with stuff from bags, you probably won't be able to tell the
difference.

Chemical insecticides and the like, however, have to be used with
care -- if you use them at all.

Ray