"Katra" wrote in message
...
In article ,


Plus it's just plain damn fun to go out to the yard and pick your
lunch
and cook it fresh off the plants... :-) Tastier too. :-d At least in
my
experience.

Sometimes tho' I have to wonder if it's worth the water bills!

That's why we want to buy that bit of property that has a crick running
through it. We are pretty well assured of being able to buy the house
and about ten acres of surrounding land, but the owner doesn't seem to
want to sell us the creek.

Oh well, I can always put in a shallow well and a windmill. It'll add
some atmosphere, and go well with the old barn. :-)



Ray

In article ,
"Ray Drouillard" wrote:

I wonder who did the study. I wonder what veggies were used. Radishes
and lettuce might be difficult, but I have yet to see a store-boughten
peach that comes even close to one that was picked ripe from the tree
(as opposed to being picked green and ripened after being severed from
its source of sugar). The same sort of goes for tomatoes. It isn't as
much an issue of vine-ripening, but there is a taste that comes with
home grown tomatoes that is missing in the store-boughten fare. Perhaps
buying some of the $3.00/pound premium tomatoes would fix that, but I
wouldn't bet on it.

I wuldn't either -- I've paid the premium for truss tomatoes and, while they
taste better than the cheap ones, they have nothing on home-grown for flavour.
OTOH I can fully believe that a home-grown iceberg lettuce doesn't taste much
better than a shop one. A home-grown cos lettuce outshines a shop one, though
-- even when grown under far-from-ideal conditions, ie with me as gardener!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Jeez; if only those Ancient Greek storytellers had known about the astonishing
creature that is the *Usenet hydra*: you cut off one head, and *a stupider one*
grows back..." -- MJ, cam.misc

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:59:28 -0500, "Ray Drouillard"
wrote:


"Frogleg" wrote

Yeah, but... "home grown" and "organic" are not the same thing.
Backing up the thread a bit, we come to 'taste tests' between organic
and non-. There's no question that a tomato picked in one's own
garden, or a peach from one's (or one's neighbor's) tree is superior
to well-travelled produce, whether they've been fertilized with
(organic) goat manure or something in a plastic bag.


Some people are purists :-)

I prefer to eat veggies that don't require the removal of chemicals
before eating.

This is where I quarrel with the purists. I don't care for
insecticides and I don't use them (except once, in a pot where
Japanese beetles were devouring a woodruff plant). I *have* used Bt
San Diego to control Colorado potato beetles. In Virginia. :-) *I*
don't want to wash stuff off my veg either. But I see a difference in
the level of 'sin' between wholesale use of pesticide and a little
MiracleGro. That is, I think that fertilizers, perticides, and
herbicides should be separate categories, not lumped together as "evil
chemicals."

Also, whether or not you add ammonium nitrate or
whatever to the soil, having good humus in the soil makes for better
produce. Also, while the plants themselves don't need much in the way
of trace minerals, we need them. You won't find selenium and the like
in a bag of chemical fertilizer, but you'll find a variety of minerals
in the dairy doo, compost, or whatever you are using.

Selenium is found in the soil, and in animal protein, as well as in
some veg. If the soil is deficient in a given area, local animal poo
and compost will be, too. In which case, the mineral can be applied
as...commercial fertilizer!

http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...7/selenium.htm

When someone posts that they're starting a garden and want to know
what brand of fertilizer to use, I often reply that lively plants need
more than a sprinkling from a bag of granules. I go on and on about
the benefits of compost, not so much for nutrition but for general
soil improvement, aeration and water drainage/retention. But if
someone posts about an obvious nitrogen deficiency, I'd recommend
ammonium nitrate. Animal poo does *not* appear to be perfectly
balanced fertilizer. Good? Yes. Perfect, convenient, without any
downside? No.

I think we essentially agree that mad-dog conviction on either side of
the organic-chemical Great Divide are wrong-headed. There are too many
gray areas in a controversy that is often seen as black&white.

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:59:28 -0500, "Ray Drouillard"
wrote:


"Frogleg" wrote

Yeah, but... "home grown" and "organic" are not the same thing.
Backing up the thread a bit, we come to 'taste tests' between organic
and non-. There's no question that a tomato picked in one's own
garden, or a peach from one's (or one's neighbor's) tree is superior
to well-travelled produce, whether they've been fertilized with
(organic) goat manure or something in a plastic bag.


Some people are purists :-)

I prefer to eat veggies that don't require the removal of chemicals
before eating.

This is where I quarrel with the purists. I don't care for
insecticides and I don't use them (except once, in a pot where
Japanese beetles were devouring a woodruff plant). I *have* used Bt
San Diego to control Colorado potato beetles. In Virginia. :-) *I*
don't want to wash stuff off my veg either. But I see a difference in
the level of 'sin' between wholesale use of pesticide and a little
MiracleGro. That is, I think that fertilizers, perticides, and
herbicides should be separate categories, not lumped together as "evil
chemicals."

Also, whether or not you add ammonium nitrate or
whatever to the soil, having good humus in the soil makes for better
produce. Also, while the plants themselves don't need much in the way
of trace minerals, we need them. You won't find selenium and the like
in a bag of chemical fertilizer, but you'll find a variety of minerals
in the dairy doo, compost, or whatever you are using.

Selenium is found in the soil, and in animal protein, as well as in
some veg. If the soil is deficient in a given area, local animal poo
and compost will be, too. In which case, the mineral can be applied
as...commercial fertilizer!

http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...7/selenium.htm

When someone posts that they're starting a garden and want to know
what brand of fertilizer to use, I often reply that lively plants need
more than a sprinkling from a bag of granules. I go on and on about
the benefits of compost, not so much for nutrition but for general
soil improvement, aeration and water drainage/retention. But if
someone posts about an obvious nitrogen deficiency, I'd recommend
ammonium nitrate. Animal poo does *not* appear to be perfectly
balanced fertilizer. Good? Yes. Perfect, convenient, without any
downside? No.

I think we essentially agree that mad-dog conviction on either side of
the organic-chemical Great Divide are wrong-headed. There are too many
gray areas in a controversy that is often seen as black&white.

I have not read this book, but I have practiced organic gardening on a
suburban block with favourable results and
I believe organic gardening is viable if approached in the correct manner.

There may be some exceptions for using pesticides, especially on fruit trees
with introduced pests that have no natural predators
(I.e. That dam cherry slug that attacks my plums, pears and cherry tree)
But otherwise, with careful planning and paying attention to 'past season'
errors you should find pesticides are not really necessary.

Mr Hopkins is accurate in saying a that large amounts of organic matter are
required in the soil. i.e. compost, as Australian soil is generally of poor
quality.
We should not even double dig our soil , but build compost/raised beds where
possible.
Chemical fertilizers will not 'fix' the soil. Compost over time, with
continued use, will improve soil quality.
(if you crop rotate and minimise digging)

But building compost I NOT hard to do and organic matter is not difficult to
obtain.(everyone throws it out)
Also you won't need 'heaps' of space.

First you need to
1. Invest in a tree mulcher ($150 up) and possibly by a trailer (2nd hand
in the trading post)
2. Locate a cheap and local 'manure' pit. I live in Victoria, outer eastern
suburbs. There is a local horse track not too far from my house.
I can collect a trailer load of horse manure for $5.00.
3. Make a compost heap. I won't go into the semantics of how to make a good
compost. A good resource is
'The Rodale Book of Composting'
Deborah I Martina and Crace Gershuny,
Editors. Rodale Press, Emmaus, Pennsylvania.

You can make 'moveable' compost beds. Try and make your compost 'hot' as it
kills weed seeds.
When the compost is finished make it a raised bed and plant and start
another compost heap.

I collect organic matter for about a month, picking up neighbours trees they
have cut, my lawn clippings, weeds etc etc. (anything organic even
newspaper)
I then go and collect the manure and start up a seriously hot compost.

SO that fixes up your 'soil' issue and now all you have to do is deal with
the pests.
P.S and if you have to buy soil, while it is slightly more expensive, choose
mushroom mulch. It is worth the extra expense.
You will have near compost quality soil and it will retain moisture more
easily.

To deal with pests in an organic manner takes some planning.
And you will get pests all the same. Its the 'how much' damage they do that
is the issue VS How much does the pesticide cost/what am I eating it for etc
factor.

So now you need a little bit of knowledge on pest behaviour. Pests find
their food by either smell or sight. So you want to confuse them.
There a many books on 'companion' planting, good pests/bad pests. Repelling
pest plants etc etc that can assist with 'keeping' pests at bay.
There is so much knowledge in fact that it can get confusing,
and you may start thinking, 'Hey I will just SPRAY'.

But I have found with a limited amount of knowledge that a few tricks work
well.
Don't plant the same vegetables all in a row. Its like a sitting target. The
pests see/smell it SO EASILY. Especially the cabbages, cauliflowers, etc
(the Brassica family)
Garlic works well in most places as a repellent.
Set up 'sacrifice Brassica's. The cabbage I plant these at the edge of the
bed and they always gets decimated by pests.
However, the other Brassica's are usually free to mostly free of
snails/slugs.

Introduce a pond and frogs into your backyard to catch the bugs.

We eat anywhere between 20 to 80% of our own food during meals. Probably
averaging 60%
This is our 2nd summer crop.

I am keeping an online diary of my garden ( nearly 2mth behind at present)
www.jeack.com.au/~kirsty

As to the taste test between organic VS non-organic VS home grown.

I eat mostly organic vegetables (seasonal when possible except avocados my
addiction)
Sometimes, I will admit you don't notice a difference in the foods. And some
can seen even 'better' as non-organic.
Below are examples that do compare noticeably for me.

Tomatoes
non-organic = Pretty dam tasteless. No flavour and a strange flour like
texture
organic = Still pretty tasteless. Normal tomato texture.
home grown = Fantastic.

Peaches
non-organic = From what I recall seemed ok
organic = Alright, some had a slightly bitter aftertaste. Smaller in
size than non-organic
home grown = As big as the non-organic, very sweet, no bitter aftertaste

Potatoes

non-organic = Taste floury and weird
organic = Taste wonderful
home-grown = Taste as good as organic, easier to clean.

Lettuce
No difference between any, but is expensive. Home grown lose leaf's very
easy to grow.


Capsicum
non-organic = Big and watery. Not much taste but twice the size of organic
organic = Smaller in size, less watery. Slightly more flavour
home grown = Never been very successful.

In all for 'value' non-organic. But how much water has been used to justify
that SIZE is my question.
However, in saying the home grown tomato's are fantastic I did have some
exceptions.
These were the seeds that self sprouted from the organic vegetable scraps I
fed to my chickens.
They were perfect in shape, stayed on the kitchen bench 'ripening up for
days longer than other 'variety's and tasted a lot less 'fantastic' than say
the Tommy toes.
The moral of this is. Even organics grow tomatoes for 'shelf life' and
'appearance's over flavour. Definably grow your own.


"Ivan McDonagh" wrote in message
7.67...
*** note the cross post ***


Hi all

I have just finished reading an online book "Chemicals, Humus, and The
Soil" written by Donald P. Hopkins. This book is available through the
agriculture library at http://www.soilandhealth.org.

It seems to me that Mr Hopkins makes a very strong case in favour of
using the fertilisers that are not permissible under the "rules" of
organic gardening. Although Mr Hopkins has discussed this matter in the
context of commercial farming it seems to me that as home growers we are
also looking for best yield for least cost (direct and labour) and that
the arguments he presents are mostly just as valid for home growers as
for commercial.

Mr Hopkins emphasises to a very great extent the need for large amounts
of organic matter in the soil but is also convincing in his argument
that the amounts of humus that are required to provide sufficient
nutrients for the high density planting that both home and commercial
growers favour is difficult for the home grower and expensive to the
point of impossibility in the case of the commercial grower to obtain.

I wonder if anyone else has read this book and can comment on the
validity of the arguments put forward by Mr Hopkins.

Also, are there any peer-reviewed studies regarding the "taste" of
organic vs. non-organic produce (presumably these would be double blind
trials) and the bio-availability of nutrients in organic vs. non-organic
produce. Obviously, I would prefer at least abstracts to be available via
the internet.

Ivan.

Frogleg wrote in
:

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:32:45 +1100, Terry Collins
wrote:


I don't understand why 'artificial' fertilizers have such vociferous
opponents. AFAIK, plants don't care whether their nitrogen and
phosphorous comes from cowpats or granules.

That was actually one of the points made in the book that I referenced
in the original post. The way the author described it makes good sense
to me.


The previous poster is looking at real-life issues, and doubtless
already uses all the 'organic' processes he can manage.

I do and I'm looking for ways to increase that still further.

*His*
cost/benefit analysis appears to have come down on the side of
manufactured fertilizer. Makes sense to me.

It seems that way at the moment based on the responses I've had.

He's not talking about
wholesale DDT spraying, or lowering the water table to keep his
golfcourse green.


No, definitely not!

The *huge* amount of grass clippings, equally huge amounts of chook poo
and, possibly, a smaller amount of clay are all at least partly focused
on reducing water requirements as much as possible.

And my position on *no* factory pesticides remains firm - increased
productivity through factory fertilisers is one thing but I haven't seen
a cogent argument yet as to why a well managed, mixed crop would need a
pesticide.

Thanks to all who responded.

Ivan.

wrote:

....snip......

I am keeping an online diary of my garden ( nearly 2mth behind at present)
www.jeack.com.au/~kirsty

unfortunately in flash and not readable.

wrote:

....snip......

I am keeping an online diary of my garden ( nearly 2mth behind at present)
www.jeack.com.au/~kirsty

unfortunately in flash and not readable.

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:32:45 +1100, Terry Collins wrote:

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

....snip.....

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in factory
fertilisers versus non-factory -

If that is the case, work out how much your motor vehicle costs to run,
because you will need to factor that into everything you do food wise.

The cheapest food is bulk buying at the markets. The early markets where
all the grocers buy, not the retail/paddy's type. the problem then
becomes with what to do with 40kg bags of carrots, etc. which you can
always compost 50% {;-).


Otherwise, start looking around for supplies of organic matter; manure
and compost.


Perhaps a local restaurant won't mind you taking vege scraps away. If
you are going to handle meat scraps, you really have to know what you
are doing with composting as it can smell = problems with neighbours.

Look at race tracks, they are generally quite happy for people to take
the manure away.

One problem with racetracks and other sources of manure is that they sometimes
spray their manure with pesticides to keep the flies away.

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:32:45 +1100, Terry Collins wrote:

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

....snip.....

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in factory
fertilisers versus non-factory -

If that is the case, work out how much your motor vehicle costs to run,
because you will need to factor that into everything you do food wise.

The cheapest food is bulk buying at the markets. The early markets where
all the grocers buy, not the retail/paddy's type. the problem then
becomes with what to do with 40kg bags of carrots, etc. which you can
always compost 50% {;-).


Otherwise, start looking around for supplies of organic matter; manure
and compost.


Perhaps a local restaurant won't mind you taking vege scraps away. If
you are going to handle meat scraps, you really have to know what you
are doing with composting as it can smell = problems with neighbours.

Look at race tracks, they are generally quite happy for people to take
the manure away.

One problem with racetracks and other sources of manure is that they sometimes
spray their manure with pesticides to keep the flies away.

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:32:45 +1100, Terry Collins wrote:

Ivan McDonagh wrote:

....snip.....

Unfortunately growing vegies will be actually be of quite some economic
importance to me by this time next year and hence my interest in factory
fertilisers versus non-factory -

If that is the case, work out how much your motor vehicle costs to run,
because you will need to factor that into everything you do food wise.

The cheapest food is bulk buying at the markets. The early markets where
all the grocers buy, not the retail/paddy's type. the problem then
becomes with what to do with 40kg bags of carrots, etc. which you can
always compost 50% {;-).


Otherwise, start looking around for supplies of organic matter; manure
and compost.


Perhaps a local restaurant won't mind you taking vege scraps away. If
you are going to handle meat scraps, you really have to know what you
are doing with composting as it can smell = problems with neighbours.

Look at race tracks, they are generally quite happy for people to take
the manure away.

One problem with racetracks and other sources of manure is that they sometimes
spray their manure with pesticides to keep the flies away.

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:50:20 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

(snip)
It's your own fault. You introduced the transportation issue. :-)
You're advising the previous poster to spend a couple of days a week
chasing around to restaurants and race tracks to find and transport
large-volume materials to replace a couple of bags of the chemical
nutrients plants require?

I don't understand why 'artificial' fertilizers have such vociferous
opponents. AFAIK, plants don't care whether their nitrogen and
phosphorous comes from cowpats or granules.

That's still being investigated. It's been claimed that our bodies don't absorb
nutrients from pills the same way they absorb nutrients from food. I've seen
many organic advocates make the same claim about plants.

The previous poster is looking at real-life issues, and doubtless
already uses all the 'organic' processes he can manage. *His*
cost/benefit analysis appears to have come down on the side of
manufactured fertilizer. Makes sense to me. He's not talking about
wholesale DDT spraying, or lowering the water table to keep his
golfcourse green.

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:50:20 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

(snip)
It's your own fault. You introduced the transportation issue. :-)
You're advising the previous poster to spend a couple of days a week
chasing around to restaurants and race tracks to find and transport
large-volume materials to replace a couple of bags of the chemical
nutrients plants require?

I don't understand why 'artificial' fertilizers have such vociferous
opponents. AFAIK, plants don't care whether their nitrogen and
phosphorous comes from cowpats or granules.

That's still being investigated. It's been claimed that our bodies don't absorb
nutrients from pills the same way they absorb nutrients from food. I've seen
many organic advocates make the same claim about plants.

The previous poster is looking at real-life issues, and doubtless
already uses all the 'organic' processes he can manage. *His*
cost/benefit analysis appears to have come down on the side of
manufactured fertilizer. Makes sense to me. He's not talking about
wholesale DDT spraying, or lowering the water table to keep his
golfcourse green.

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:50:20 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

(snip)
The previous poster is looking at real-life issues, and doubtless
already uses all the 'organic' processes he can manage. *His*
cost/benefit analysis appears to have come down on the side of
manufactured fertilizer. Makes sense to me. He's not talking about
wholesale DDT spraying, or lowering the water table to keep his
golfcourse green.

One factor rarely included in the cost/benefits analysis is the problem of
possibly running out of fossil fuels(which is where many of the chemicals come
from). It's kind of hard to establish a value for that, but it might be
important somewhere down the road.

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:50:20 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

(snip)
The previous poster is looking at real-life issues, and doubtless
already uses all the 'organic' processes he can manage. *His*
cost/benefit analysis appears to have come down on the side of
manufactured fertilizer. Makes sense to me. He's not talking about
wholesale DDT spraying, or lowering the water table to keep his
golfcourse green.

One factor rarely included in the cost/benefits analysis is the problem of
possibly running out of fossil fuels(which is where many of the chemicals come
from). It's kind of hard to establish a value for that, but it might be
important somewhere down the road.