"Frank Mamone" wrote:

So you're using the Hagen diffuser with your own bottle?

Correct. I wanted the diffuser from the moment I saw one in the store.
But I also wanted to go on the cheap as much as I could.

I'm only getting 1 bubble per 6 seconds tops!
I'll try your recipe with my own bottle and see what happens. The thing is
it only lasts one week right?
I suppose you prepare your new bottle 1 day ahead of time?

I'm cheating - I've got two bottles hooked up, with staggered start
times. The plan is that each week I'll replace the oldest bottle's
mixture, which means that I'm keeping each bottle on for two weeks.

And I also keep the bottles in the same cabinet as the ballasts for my
DIY lighting modification to the Eclipse hood. This keeps them
slightly warmer than room temperature, which probably contributes.

The plan hasn't had much chance to work in actual practice yet. As I
mentioned, I have a tendency to knock the bottles over which screws
things up. Plus, I did a poor job of sealing the airline connection to
the caps the first time around, and had to deal with that about two
weeks ago.

So this is really my first successful run - I haven't knocked the
bottles over all week.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

(David Wee) wrote in message ...

Problem is, the bubbles
sometimes lose their "momentum" and just stop at a random place along its
upward path on the series of ramps. This causes a "bubble" traffic
congestion, and multiple bubbles start coalescing into one gigantic bubble
that sits there for often 3 minutes or more.

Try fiddling with the diffuser. A slight angle helps some folks. The
bubbles will go faster in one direction, slam into the corner, then go
slow in the other direction getting much smaller.

Also of note, your bubbles will stop if you have a snail problem.
Those buggers park themselves on the stairs....some even park
themselves at the air tube end.

I've had my Nutrifin since Nov. Only issue is a slight algae growth
on the diffuser steps....my oto is small enough to fit, but it just
doesnt want to :-)

Phil,

Are you using a homemade bottle and what is you bubble rate and recipe you
use?

Thanks,

Frank

"Phil Dietz" wrote in message
om...
(David Wee) wrote in message
...

Problem is, the bubbles
sometimes lose their "momentum" and just stop at a random place along
its
upward path on the series of ramps. This causes a "bubble" traffic
congestion, and multiple bubbles start coalescing into one gigantic
bubble
that sits there for often 3 minutes or more.

Try fiddling with the diffuser. A slight angle helps some folks. The
bubbles will go faster in one direction, slam into the corner, then go
slow in the other direction getting much smaller.

Also of note, your bubbles will stop if you have a snail problem.
Those buggers park themselves on the stairs....some even park
themselves at the air tube end.

I've had my Nutrifin since Nov. Only issue is a slight algae growth
on the diffuser steps....my oto is small enough to fit, but it just
doesnt want to :-)

"Frank Mamone" wrote in message ...
Phil,

Are you using a homemade bottle and what is you bubble rate and recipe you
use?

I use the Hagen CO2 bottle. I use a semi-standard recipe:
fill 1st line with sugar
put in 1/4 teaspoon baking soda
pour in proofed yeast starter
dump in 1/4 teaspoon of wine yeast
fill to next line with warm water
(dont shake)

For proofed yeast starter:
stir 1/4 teaspoon of quick-activing yeast in a 1/4 cup warm water
that has 1 TBS sugar in it. Let it stand until its foamy on top.


I found that using wine-yeast alone is "hard to start" and "fizzles"
after a few days. So I mix in quick-rise bread yeast.

My last batch lasted about 1 month which is comparable to those
special packets one can buy from Hagen.

I might try the Jello recipe next time.

It sounds like I must be doing pretty good with my DIY Co2 setup. I
am using a 2 liter bottle and the nutrafin diffuser. My tank is a 60
gallon. I use the following mixtu 4 cups of warm water, 2 cups of
sugar, 1 tspn yeast. Gently shake together and in approx 20 minutes
it is ready for the tank. I get 1 bubble oer second with this setup
which will last for about the first 3 days. From there, the bubble
count will slowly reduce to 1 bubble every 3-4 seconds or so. I
change the bottle every week. I did find that the "red star" brand of
yeast seems to work better than the others (not sure why).

This setup has provided my 60 gallon tank with more than enough Co2.
My plant growth has been excellent and the ph stays steady at 7.6. I
get pearling throughout the entire tank.

One thing I experimented with and think works well, is that I made
sort of a non-flow area in the tank. In other words, one half of the
tank has a lot of water flow as provided by the aquaclear 500 power
filter. the other half of the tank has almost no current since I
planted lots of tall plants such as cabomba, hygro, foxtail, ambula,
and anubias. This is also the side where the Nutrafin diffuser is
located. I think that the calm water allows for much more diffusion
of the Co2 into the water. The plants on the side with the current
show signs of Co2 fertilization since they are pearling as well and
are growing steadily.

I have also found that the Co2 bubbles will get "stuck" to the wall of
the Nutrafin diffuser quite frequently. Any more suggestions for this
one?

I hope this helps anyone willing to try.

Dave


(David Wee) wrote in message ...
In article om,
Robert Flory wrote:
"David Wee" wrote in message
...

Another thought:

It seems that one can achieve a maximum CO2-water diffusion *rate* with a
powerhead/filter intake + bubble system, but retention of the CO2 will be
based on the water chemistry (pH, kH, not clear on this, but indeed it
seems chemically related).

check out http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

Assuming no other buffering ions... there is a direct relationship between
pH, KH and CO2. Chuck Gadd has a calulator ... "The formula used for this
calculation is: CO2 (in PPM) = 3 * KH * 10( 7-pH ) where KH is Carbonate
Hardness in degrees. " The (7-pH) is an exponent, the formating got lost
in the cut and past.

Ahh. So is "CO2 = 3KH * 10^(7-pH)" an equation or a function? I.e. CO2 =
f(KH, pH). The differentiation matters if KH and pH are independent of
each other, so I am asking if kH and pH are independent.



I don't think water chemistry has anything to do with CO2 retention. That
is controlled by somebody or other's laws (hey it been 30 years since
college) that govern diffusion and etc.

Yeah, I think i used retention and current capacity equivalently, when I
should have made the distinction.


Dave
--

(David Wee) wrote in message ...
Currently the Nutrafin generator is giving out a bubble just over a
second. I posted to sci.chem under the thread labled "CO2 generation via
Yeast + Alcohol removal methods", hoping to find if there was a method
where you could have yeast multiply but then remove the alcohol.
They were all pretty informative, but the two most relevant posts were
something about "Turbo Yeast" which has a proven signficiantly higher
tolerance to alcohol than any other yeasts, and the other post was about
removing 80 to 90% of the mix after it slows down and just replenishing it
with sugar water. Could someone explain more about that? There seems to be
three parts to the mixtu the top froth, the middle highly aqueous
layer, and the bottom layer mush. SOmeone may care to check out that
thread on sci.chem.

Okay, so yesterday's pH reading was 7.5 (it has been at 7.5 historically),
and after one day of CO2 via not quite DIY Hagen/Nutrafin CO2, the pH is
now 6.9.

I also dropped on kH from 4 to 3 degrees. According to Chuck Gadd's chart,
(ph 7, kh 3), I have 9 ppM CO2 in my water. So I added a teaspoon of
crushed coral into my aquaclear sponge area, hoping to push teh kH back
from 3 up to at least 3.5. Is this a correct procedure?

I expect by morning the pH will be soemwhere around 6.8, but we'll see.

To eric: Yeah, the traffic bubble jam has stopped and the bubbles have
been going fine now. I secretly love my Nutrafin purchase. That gray
bottle looks nice.


--


I'm a newbie to DIY Co2 but I'm doing pretty well. I have a 70 gal
with about 30 small fish (Platy's,Neons etc.) My recipe uses a plastic
V8 bottle 1.36 litres. I add 2 cups of sugar fill the bottle 3/4 of
the way up with warm water, Shake well, add half a pack of yeast and
thats it. Plants are doing great, fish are happy. I only use a one
way valve at the end of the hose and the bubbles rise 1 every second
to second and a half for more than two weeks. I will be adding a
bubble wand tomorrow. It will be mounted verticaly so the Co2 travels
up to the end cap where there is a small hole and it will squeeze
through. I've drilled many smaller holes through the wand so that
water can travel through it. When I need a new bottle I flush the old
stuff out, add the new, and within 3 hours presto! I dont have any
test kits but seeing is believing.

On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 07:20:37 +0000 (UTC),
(David Wee) wrote:

I also dropped on kH from 4 to 3 degrees. According to Chuck Gadd's chart,
(ph 7, kh 3), I have 9 ppM CO2 in my water. So I added a teaspoon of
crushed coral into my aquaclear sponge area, hoping to push teh kH back
from 3 up to at least 3.5. Is this a correct procedure?

If you intended to raise the CO2 level by increasing the KH, then no,
it's not the correct procedure. Raising the KH will also raise the
KH. In your example, you've got pH 7, KH3 giving a CO2 level of 9ppm.
If you raise the KH to 3.5, then pH will just rise close to 7.1,
giving the same 9ppm of CO2. The only way to increase the CO2 level
is to get more CO2 dissolved into the water.



Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

(dpots) wrote:

I did find that the "red star" brand of
yeast seems to work better than the others

After reading this yesterday, I bought some Red Star yeast last night,
as I had run out of what I'd been using.

Holy cow, this is a lot more active. I put a new bottle on my
two-bottle setup perhaps two hours ago. At this moment, I'm getting a
bubble rate of more than three per second! I've never had this level
of CO2 production before, even with two fresh bottles of the other
brand I was using (yellow-ish packets, forget the name).

It'll be very interesting to do a pH reading in a few more hours to
see what effect this has, and also to see how long this yeast
continues the high production level.

Thanks for the recommendation.

--
www.ericschreiber.com

Eric, glad to hear your getting the same results as I am with the Red
Star yeast. By the way, I also found that the Co2 production lasted
much longer using this brand over the others.

dpots


Eric Schreiber wrote in message . ..
(dpots) wrote:

I did find that the "red star" brand of
yeast seems to work better than the others

After reading this yesterday, I bought some Red Star yeast last night,
as I had run out of what I'd been using.

Holy cow, this is a lot more active. I put a new bottle on my
two-bottle setup perhaps two hours ago. At this moment, I'm getting a
bubble rate of more than three per second! I've never had this level
of CO2 production before, even with two fresh bottles of the other
brand I was using (yellow-ish packets, forget the name).

It'll be very interesting to do a pH reading in a few more hours to
see what effect this has, and also to see how long this yeast
continues the high production level.

Thanks for the recommendation.

I finally switched from the (Nutrafin) Hagen Plant Gro canister with a soda
bottle --- my first one. I used 2 cups of sugar, 3/4 teaspoon of yeast
(Fleishmann's) and
4 cups of water. I had trouble with the gas leaking at the cap, so put
silicone sealant which still leaked until it hardened. I 'll patch it with a
glue gun today as someone suggested.

Anyhow, I'm getting just slightly over 1 bubble per second! Works great.
Brought down my PH to 6.8 and results into a 21ppm CO2 according to the
chart. My water is KH is 4.5.

I also got rid of the Aquaclear, not because it's a bad filter , but I got a
real good deal for a Eheim 2213 Classic for 99$ CDN with media included!
They're liquidating the classic models. I also don't have to worry about the
surface agitation any more.

Thank you all for your recipe suggestions.

Frank


"Eric Schreiber" wrote in message
...
(David Wee) wrote:

1. Warm up water with the stove. Dissolve sugar in it.
2. Cool it down by adding cold water to the sugar water.
3. Seaparately, in the bottle, I add a pinch of yeast + about a teaspoon
of baking soda + two teaspoons of flour + more cool water.
4. Mix it up in the bottle.

Seems like more effort that you need, but if it's working for you, run
with it.

I put 1.5 cups of sugar into an empty two liter bottle. Then I put in
about one liter of warm water (use the baby bottle test - see if it's
too hot for your inner wrist) straight from the tap, filling the
bottle halfway.

I add a teaspoon of yeast (probably more than I need), put a cap on
it, and shake vigorously. The sugar dissolves in the warm water pretty
quickly, and I'm ready to go. I remove the cap, and attach the bottle
to my CO2 line into the tank.

The only real problem I have with my CO2 system is that I've got two
bottles, so I can rotate a fresh one on each week. Every flipping time
I mess with the bottles, one of them falls over. Without fail. Even
when I'm being very careful. This, of course, gets smelly yeasty
sticky sugary water into the CO2 line, and gums up the works, blocks
the flow, and generally annoys me.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

In article ,
Eric Schreiber wrote:
(dpots) wrote:

I did find that the "red star" brand of
yeast seems to work better than the others

After reading this yesterday, I bought some Red Star yeast last night,
as I had run out of what I'd been using.

Holy cow, this is a lot more active. I put a new bottle on my
two-bottle setup perhaps two hours ago. At this moment, I'm getting a
bubble rate of more than three per second! I've never had this level
of CO2 production before, even with two fresh bottles of the other
brand I was using (yellow-ish packets, forget the name).


Yeah, I was just going to mention the same thing. Red Star is some great
yeast. I feel like im producing more yeast than I am growing plants.

I wanted to mention that the some sci.chem people dont think that adding
some baking soda to the mixture is helpful, since its the alcohol, not the
pH, that eventually drowns the yeast. On the same note, I wanted add my
own two cents and say that flour added to the yeast mixture is quite nice
since yeast + flour = gluten. This gluten layer is a bit more thicker, yet
still permeable and semi-aqueous, but adds more physical distance between
the yeast colonies and the eventual pool of alcohol that forms on the
bottom aqueous layer. By adding the flour, you make the yeast colonies
less aqueous and more "congealed", so when you can dump out the
alcohol+old sugar water more easier without dumping the gluten(yeast +
flour) layer since it will stick more to the sides. Then you just add
water + sugar back in and seal up the bottle, in which this process can be
repeated indefinitely.

Now if only yeast was a classified substance and could be sold on the
black market, we could all be very profitable yeast dealers.


--

Interesting. So you have alot more total yeast that way.

What type of bubble rate are you getting?


"Phil Dietz" wrote in message
m...
"Frank Mamone" wrote in message
...
Phil,

Are you using a homemade bottle and what is you bubble rate and recipe
you
use?

I use the Hagen CO2 bottle. I use a semi-standard recipe:
fill 1st line with sugar
put in 1/4 teaspoon baking soda
pour in proofed yeast starter
dump in 1/4 teaspoon of wine yeast
fill to next line with warm water
(dont shake)

For proofed yeast starter:
stir 1/4 teaspoon of quick-activing yeast in a 1/4 cup warm water
that has 1 TBS sugar in it. Let it stand until its foamy on top.


I found that using wine-yeast alone is "hard to start" and "fizzles"
after a few days. So I mix in quick-rise bread yeast.

My last batch lasted about 1 month which is comparable to those
special packets one can buy from Hagen.

I might try the Jello recipe next time.