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effort in clearing up hazy water... will this do?
Linda, do a search on "biogenic decalcification." When you talk about
"dusty flake-like stuff" precipitating out of the water, I'm wondering whether it's a product of your bacteria bloom or the insoluble minerals in your water. Also, before you go to bed tonight, leave out a pail of tap water so you can test the pH tomorrow after it has outgassed. I'm wondering whether the pH is higher in your tank or your faucet. Post the results tomorrow night. Regardless, I'm going to recommend injecting with CO2. Don't obsess about clean gravel. Plants LIKE growing in fish poop. I've had UGF systems running for many years that have only been occasionally, partially cleaned. When I get down under the stand and look up at the bottom of the (glass-bottomed) tank, I can see clear water flowing through the root systems under the plates. You CAN scour your gravel every week but, at this point, in the interest of getting your system settled into a desirable equilibrium, I'd just let things be. kush linda mar wrote in message ... Hi Kush, Hi, Linda. I'm uncomfortable in the role of "expert," but since I'm the self-designated UGF/high pH-soft-water guy, what the hey... :-) I'll take any advice I can get! and at this point, most people on the group is more expert than I am, so.. :-) The first impression I get is that you might be doing too many interventions and too much cleaning. If the tank has only been up a couple of months (?), you sure don't need to be vacuuming gravel. I only do mine every year or so I don' t know about too many interventions, except for cutting dying vegetation stirring up stuff, but when I look at the edge of the tank, and on my milfoils, I can see LOTS of brown goop accumulating.. dusty flake-like stuff.. something precipitating out from the water, that is settling on everything inside the tank. I had a huge diatom infestation during the initial tank cycling to a point I could not see through the glass.. all of which otos did a marvelous job of cleaning.. but what goes into the oto must come out, and I think much of the gunk on the gravel, I think, is oto poop or what's left of it. I mean, when the otos were at it, their poops *covered* the surface of anything remotely horizontal, to a point where there were no green showing on the poor anubias leaf (completely covered in oto poop. I should have taken a photo...). the brown flaky stuff, the poor milfoil becomes covered in brown again in minutes even when I shake them loose.. instead of settling to the gravel, the brown stuff just gets re-attached to the leaves and suffocating the plant (I think I killed off a few because of this)... the bigger-leaved plants aren't as bad.. but milfoil isn't doing too well, since it's acting like a strainer. I haven't been vacuuming all that much, since the time I have before I hit the 25% water extraction is pretty fast and doesn't give me enough time to just get the obvious plant debris that gets stirred up, etc.. but haven't done anything out of the ordinary in terms of tank maintenance. and only if I happen to be replanting a large area. Besides, Leigh and well.. I had to pull out few plants that didn't survive the transplant shock... that made a huge mess.. does that count? :-) others are going to scold you for wasting all that yummy mulm (after they stop palpitating over the ugf). At any rate, I'd recommend just doing your :-) 25% weekly-or-so water changes for a while and letting things get established. ok... but, don't I need to vacuum gravel if I don't want the UGF to fail? (go anaerobic). I got lots of big-root plants (swords, etc.. I thought I was only ordering two.. from trueaquariumplants..), and I keep hearing that the roots will clog the filter, so I need to be more diligent about keeping the substrate unclogged (at the expense of depriving the roots of food and too much oxygen..)... The big issue is the pH. Ammonium is not stable at pH much over 7 and in really alkaline water will change into very-bad-for-your-fish ammonia. This may mean that your tank isn't really cycled after all. Are you adding CO2? If not, I (almost) guarantee that adding CO2 will eliminate your cloudy water within 24 hours. my tap water is naturally soft.. and I think the pH is artificially made high by the water treatment facility... I haven't had the chance to measure the pH straight out of the tap yet, but the water report says average pH is 9.1 or so... so the high alkaline level is not really due to the fish, but because of the source water having high pH.. and is slowly coming down as the water ages. pH of 7.5 to 8 is not slightly alkaline. It is very alkaline. With low kH :-P right. logrithmic.. misspoke.. except for the otos, I've tried to put in fish that can survive higher alkaline water... (and add "soft" and "non-brackish" to that, and it becomes very limiting!) (presumably) by formula your water contains little CO2. Supplementing with CO2 is not going to be optional for you, even with low lighting. The does this mean Flourish Excel is a bad idea too? the tank has one 55W CF.. (low-to-moderate brightness) bogwood and plants will help to bring the pH down over time too. I think it is bringing it down. since the tap is *supposedly* originally high in pH, I just have to make sure I don't go without water change for too long (pH change shock caused by new/old water difference will be worse if I leave it be too long), or that was the advice i was given based on my water report (soft water, high pH tap) thanks! linda linda mar wrote in message ... Dear experts.. I've been having hazy water ever since the first day I put fish in the tank, with some dose of "Cycle" as recommende by LFS and the bottle. it's not completely cloudy, but hazy.. just enough to be very useful to get some depth perception photo between the foreground leaves and background leaves.. I've finished cycling for several weeks, algae is under control, ammonia and nitrite=0 (still waiting to get my nitrate test kit). The water is slightly alkaline (pH somewhere between 7.5 and 8 depending on who tests it) and relatively soft (never tested, but based on municipal water report dH~4 or so), and is kept around 78F. I just bought the freshwater test kit, so starting this water change cycle, I will be able to run a battery of test to monitor the water condition (low dH/gH has potential pH crash worries..) Tank cycled using UGF using a relatively coarse pea-sized gravel about 2in thick, powered by two power heads (aquaclear 201's). The power head spouts are tilted enough to cause some surface agitation (lots of ripples), but does not use venturi. I have added a HOT power filter hoping to supplement mechanical filtering after the tank finished cycling (aquaclear200. two foam blocks, no carbon) hoping it would help clear the water better (no such luck). Tank is moderately to heavily planted, and moderately stocked. (the cloudiness was there even when very lightly stocked and no plants, so.). I have some bogwoods in the tank (some tannin leeching, but that's ok. Decided yellowish water by itself doesn't bother me.. just the haze) Starting this weekend, I've decided to do some systematic cleaning over the next few weeks, to see if I can somehow get the water to clear up more. I know hazy water doesn't hurt the fish, but it's just that I envy my favorite LFSs' crystal-clear tanks (some even have real plants, and they still look very very clear. only murky tanks are when they're cleaning the tank, or the feeder fish tank..), and the fact that the other two smaller tanks we have are very clear (eclipse hood). so, cloudy water=something not quite optimal.. Here is the list I've come up with that I should try to address, and see if the water will clear up. I was hoping the experts on this group can point me to other places to investigate (or just tell me to give up if the following effort doesn't pan out): 1. water changes I do 20%-25% water change every 2 weeks ever since the tank has cycled (I target 15-20%, but seems to end up taking out more water than I intended when using siphon-style gravel vac..). Obviously this in itself hasn't helped much in clearing out water 2. gravel vac I just bought the air-pump activated gravel vac, so I can do more thorough vacumming (the siphon vac took out water too quickly). I hope to remove as much plant debris, and other detritus from the gravel and plants, without malnutritioning the plants. (will be putting root tabs soon) 3. UGF maintenance try to siphon out some of the gunk accumulating underneath the UGF plating (use narrow tubing and shove it under the plate through the uplift tube opening). Last time I got lots of brownish goo out... I guess the substrate is too coarse and letting lots of detrius get trapped under the plating, oh well.. next time i'll get something better) 3. plant cleaning remove all deteriorating leaves on all stem plants, continue to vacuum out crud that accumulates on fine-leaved plants (acting as a filter!) 4. foam filter on powerfilter take out and clean (not used for biological filter yet) often. May be add a finer filter floss? (what size mesh? I see 50um or 100um particle traps)? 5. add aqua-clear type particle coagulator for more efficient mechanical filtering. are there other things I should look at to see how I can increase the water clarity without hurting the ecosystem? I assume normal gravel vac/siphoning under UGF plating won't hurt the beneficial bacteria. I won't clean the power filter and UGF at the same time (will stagger cleaning timing) to assure that the bacteria colony isn't completely destroyed. linda |
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