Ok, I'm going to change up my situation a bit. I recently (two days
ago) aquired a 55 gallon tank. The tank dimensions are 48"x18"x21".
I have the choice of several filters. The tank came with a Eheim 2217
and a HOB filter (bio-wheel). I also have a brand new Eheim 2028 that
I can use in place of one of the filters. I'm thinking that two
eheims on one tank is a bit more filtration that I really need. :-P

I still plan on using a flourite and gravel mix - although probably
not black. I would like to have about a 4" layer in the back and only
gravel up front in the clear areas - about 1/2" to 3/4".

I'll be buying compact Flourescent lights. I hope to find bulbs that
will give me at least 3wpg. I figure I'll put the lights on a timer
and have them on about 14 hours per day.

I still have a problem with getting CO2. I have found several
commercially produced CO2 thingies but the ones I've found - including
the one from Hagen are only rated up to 20 gallons. How do I add CO2
reliablely to this tank with shelling out a whole lot of money?

-Sarah


"Phil Williamson" wrote in message ...
How long do you plan on keeping the lights on per day? Which bulbs did you
choose for your new planted tank?

"Sarah" wrote in message
om...
Ok, I've had a few aquariums for over a year now, so I think I'm ready
to start my first planted tank. I've been reading everything I can
get my hands on and have asked questions at the LFS, but now I'm
overloaded with info.

I have the following plans on how to start but I need your input so
that I know I'm on the right track. I have a 25 gallon tall tank -
12" x 24" x 16"

I figure I'll start with a mixture of flourite and black gravel about
2-3 inches high. I want to use sand but I've heard conflicting
commentary that sea sand will throw things off and the sand I have in
my ciclid tank is designed for African ciclids so that LFS said I
shouldn't use it for live plants.

I was going to start with a small CO2 canister that they LFS suggested
(retails there for about $35 - don't remember the name) and a dual
flourescent light hood. The room the tank will be in does not have a
lot of stron ambient light so most of the light will come from the
hood.

I still need to research plants, but I'm thinking that I'm best going
with plants with low to medium light requirements. I haven't even
though abotu fish yet - although I know it'll be a community tank.

What else do I need? What should I fix?

"Sarah" wrote in message
om...
Ok, I'm going to change up my situation a bit. I recently (two days
ago) aquired a 55 gallon tank. The tank dimensions are 48"x18"x21".
I have the choice of several filters. The tank came with a Eheim 2217
and a HOB filter (bio-wheel). I also have a brand new Eheim 2028 that
I can use in place of one of the filters. I'm thinking that two
eheims on one tank is a bit more filtration that I really need. :-P

uh, yup, especially with CO2 injection (which you don't want to
dissipate, and CO2 = lots of plants which are filters, and lots of plants
= smaller fish which means less biological load).

I still plan on using a flourite and gravel mix - although probably
not black. I would like to have about a 4" layer in the back and only
gravel up front in the clear areas - about 1/2" to 3/4".

Sounds right, though with CO2, you can get more ambitious and go for 100%
ground cover. I have a 135g at work which is 99% covered (a little spot
under the Tiger Lotus gets too much shade and the Anubius are *slowly*
moving in there). If you go this route (perhaps trying some Echin.
tennelus across the front) then your slope is not as critical (slope for
cosmetics rather than for detritus settling), and you want to go a bit
deeper in the front (1-1/2") and not neccesarily so deep in the back
(3-1/2"?). Really, for cosmetics, tiering is better than sloping, but
that requires more intense terraforming than you might be interested in.

I used a mix of Crypts across the front of the 135g and I have mixed
feelings about it. It's too well established for me to be in a hurry
about moving them, but it looks more like a field of weeds than a lawn of
tall grass. Be careful what you plant where, as you can become a victim
of success easily ;~)

I'll be buying compact Flourescent lights. I hope to find bulbs that
will give me at least 3wpg. I figure I'll put the lights on a timer
and have them on about 14 hours per day.

The wpg is in the ballpark, but 14 daily might be high to start with.
This is something you experiment with. I'm certainly not any kind of an
expert at this. I just know enough to have fun and be dangerous ;~)

I still have a problem with getting CO2. I have found several
commercially produced CO2 thingies but the ones I've found - including
the one from Hagen are only rated up to 20 gallons. How do I add CO2
reliablely to this tank with shelling out a whole lot of money?

Don't let the rating phase you too much. The rate the CO2 dissapates is
as important as the rate it goes in. If you don't use the bio-wheel, and
keep your Eheim flow pointed downwards, you will reduce the rate at which
the CO2 dissipates (getting more bang for your buck). This improves the
results from a single DIY canister (Hagen thingy or otherwise). The
advantage of using two units (another possibility) is that you can have
them on alternate cycles (they are never both off at the same time). How
much CO2 you need to inject really depends on your expectations. I get
tired of pruning plants, so I tend to go lower, especially after the
plants are established. As they say - ymmv )
--
www.NetMax.tk

-Sarah


"Phil Williamson" wrote in message
...
How long do you plan on keeping the lights on per day? Which bulbs
did you
choose for your new planted tank?

"Sarah" wrote in message
om...
Ok, I've had a few aquariums for over a year now, so I think I'm
ready
to start my first planted tank. I've been reading everything I can
get my hands on and have asked questions at the LFS, but now I'm
overloaded with info.

I have the following plans on how to start but I need your input so
that I know I'm on the right track. I have a 25 gallon tall tank -
12" x 24" x 16"

I figure I'll start with a mixture of flourite and black gravel
about
2-3 inches high. I want to use sand but I've heard conflicting
commentary that sea sand will throw things off and the sand I have
in
my ciclid tank is designed for African ciclids so that LFS said I
shouldn't use it for live plants.

I was going to start with a small CO2 canister that they LFS
suggested
(retails there for about $35 - don't remember the name) and a dual
flourescent light hood. The room the tank will be in does not have
a
lot of stron ambient light so most of the light will come from the
hood.

I still need to research plants, but I'm thinking that I'm best
going
with plants with low to medium light requirements. I haven't even
though abotu fish yet - although I know it'll be a community tank.

What else do I need? What should I fix?

I still have a problem with getting CO2. I have found several
commercially produced CO2 thingies but the ones I've found - including
the one from Hagen are only rated up to 20 gallons. How do I add CO2
reliablely to this tank with shelling out a whole lot of money?


WOrk on the basis that any additional CO2 you can add is good...even if its
just a little bit. I use a Hagen thing on one of my tanks (about 50USG) & of
course it doesn't raise the concentration significantly but it does make a
discernable difference. If you want more, use 2.

I.

Sounds like you actually have a 75 gallon rather than a 55. Four 55w
CFs would give you a nice amount of light, but very close to too much
for a non-pressurized CO2 setup. I would aim slightly lower if you
plan to use DIY CO2. But still, if you have the patience to keep up
with them, a couple DIY CO2 bottles will work for you. I wouldn't
waste any money on off-the-shelf DIY CO2, they are no better than
regular DIY yeast/sugar mixes, save the money for a pressurized setup.
As for the lighting, again probably a little too long, I'd start with
10-12 hours and see how things go, you may find yourself reducing it
if you run into any problems. Filter wise, the 2217 is what I use on
both 55 and 90 gallon tanks so I know that will work very well for
you. The 2028 is just as good, pretty much the same size, a little
bigger media storage I believe but very much the same. The HOB you can
throw out the window, it's only going to reduce your CO2 levels and
it's not needed as any one of the other filters you have is more than
sufficient. A good size fish load may also help maintain higher CO2
levels, but obviously don't go overboard. As for the substrate,
flourite/gravel mix works well, I'd add a handfull of peat moss to the
lowest layer along with 5-6 crushed Flourish Tabs. Then cap it all
with 3-4 inches of flourite/gravel mix. I don't think you'll be able
to maintain such a steep slope for too long (4" in back, 1/2-3/4" in
front) plus that could cause nutrients to come out of the lower layers
of the substrate. I'd go with 4" in the back and 3" in front, all the
same gravel/flourite mix in case you decide you want some foreground
plants in the future.

Here's some basic info regarding DIY CO2 setups:
http://www.gpodio.com/diy_co2.asp

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio

I've found several vendors on Ebay that will sell me a CO2 regulator,
a pH meter, some funky black thing whose name I forget to regulate
bubbles. The bundle comes out to about $250. I'll willing to spend
that money. My question is - where do I get CO2 tanks. I'm an EMT, I
know where to get O2. But where does an aquarist get CO2?

Also, my water has a high pH (about 7.6-7.8). I know adding CO2
lowers pH which would be good for the tank. I'm now sure what my gH
and Kh are. Would using a peat layer underneath my gravel be
beneficial?

Sarah


(Giancarlo Podio) wrote in message om...
Sounds like you actually have a 75 gallon rather than a 55. Four 55w
CFs would give you a nice amount of light, but very close to too much
for a non-pressurized CO2 setup. I would aim slightly lower if you
plan to use DIY CO2. But still, if you have the patience to keep up
with them, a couple DIY CO2 bottles will work for you. I wouldn't
waste any money on off-the-shelf DIY CO2, they are no better than
regular DIY yeast/sugar mixes, save the money for a pressurized setup.
As for the lighting, again probably a little too long, I'd start with
10-12 hours and see how things go, you may find yourself reducing it
if you run into any problems. Filter wise, the 2217 is what I use on
both 55 and 90 gallon tanks so I know that will work very well for
you. The 2028 is just as good, pretty much the same size, a little
bigger media storage I believe but very much the same. The HOB you can
throw out the window, it's only going to reduce your CO2 levels and
it's not needed as any one of the other filters you have is more than
sufficient. A good size fish load may also help maintain higher CO2
levels, but obviously don't go overboard. As for the substrate,
flourite/gravel mix works well, I'd add a handfull of peat moss to the
lowest layer along with 5-6 crushed Flourish Tabs. Then cap it all
with 3-4 inches of flourite/gravel mix. I don't think you'll be able
to maintain such a steep slope for too long (4" in back, 1/2-3/4" in
front) plus that could cause nutrients to come out of the lower layers
of the substrate. I'd go with 4" in the back and 3" in front, all the
same gravel/flourite mix in case you decide you want some foreground
plants in the future.

Here's some basic info regarding DIY CO2 setups:
http://www.gpodio.com/diy_co2.asp

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio

|| I've found several vendors on Ebay that will sell me a CO2 regulator,
|| a pH meter, some funky black thing whose name I forget to regulate
|| bubbles. The bundle comes out to about $250. I'll willing to spend
|| that money. My question is - where do I get CO2 tanks. I'm an EMT,
|| I
|| know where to get O2. But where does an aquarist get CO2?
||
|| Also, my water has a high pH (about 7.6-7.8). I know adding CO2
|| lowers pH which would be good for the tank. I'm now sure what my gH
|| and Kh are. Would using a peat layer underneath my gravel be
|| beneficial?
||
|| Sarah

Home brewery supply houses, makers of beer, etc... Welding supply company
can sell you tanks too

If you live in a big town, grab the yellow pages, and look for gas
companies, propane companies, etc.. that's where I get mine filled.

--
RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
((((º`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸((((º ·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·.. ((((º

is that better??

LOL, you don't sound like you are following any advice in this thread,
but as long as you are still learning and we are giving you ideas, then
it's all good ;~) Your phone book should have listings. Many industries
use CO2 so it's readily available, but prices will vary.

Before installing the CO2, it would be instructive to know what your gH
and kH levels are. I don't think CO2 injection would do much to my tap
water when it's at 35dgH 16dkH, and if you are at 3dgH 2dkH then you
might be pearling your plants and looking for a way to periodically turn
off the CO2, so like so many aquaria questions, the answer is 'it
depends'.
--
www.NetMax.tk

"Sarah" wrote in message
om...
I've found several vendors on Ebay that will sell me a CO2 regulator,
a pH meter, some funky black thing whose name I forget to regulate
bubbles. The bundle comes out to about $250. I'll willing to spend
that money. My question is - where do I get CO2 tanks. I'm an EMT, I
know where to get O2. But where does an aquarist get CO2?

Also, my water has a high pH (about 7.6-7.8). I know adding CO2
lowers pH which would be good for the tank. I'm now sure what my gH
and Kh are. Would using a peat layer underneath my gravel be
beneficial?

Sarah


(Giancarlo Podio) wrote in message
om...
Sounds like you actually have a 75 gallon rather than a 55. Four 55w
CFs would give you a nice amount of light, but very close to too much
for a non-pressurized CO2 setup. I would aim slightly lower if you
plan to use DIY CO2. But still, if you have the patience to keep up
with them, a couple DIY CO2 bottles will work for you. I wouldn't
waste any money on off-the-shelf DIY CO2, they are no better than
regular DIY yeast/sugar mixes, save the money for a pressurized
setup.
As for the lighting, again probably a little too long, I'd start with
10-12 hours and see how things go, you may find yourself reducing it
if you run into any problems. Filter wise, the 2217 is what I use on
both 55 and 90 gallon tanks so I know that will work very well for
you. The 2028 is just as good, pretty much the same size, a little
bigger media storage I believe but very much the same. The HOB you
can
throw out the window, it's only going to reduce your CO2 levels and
it's not needed as any one of the other filters you have is more than
sufficient. A good size fish load may also help maintain higher CO2
levels, but obviously don't go overboard. As for the substrate,
flourite/gravel mix works well, I'd add a handfull of peat moss to
the
lowest layer along with 5-6 crushed Flourish Tabs. Then cap it all
with 3-4 inches of flourite/gravel mix. I don't think you'll be able
to maintain such a steep slope for too long (4" in back, 1/2-3/4" in
front) plus that could cause nutrients to come out of the lower
layers
of the substrate. I'd go with 4" in the back and 3" in front, all the
same gravel/flourite mix in case you decide you want some foreground
plants in the future.

Here's some basic info regarding DIY CO2 setups:
http://www.gpodio.com/diy_co2.asp

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio

(Sarah) wrote in message . com...
I've found several vendors on Ebay that will sell me a CO2 regulator,
a pH meter, some funky black thing whose name I forget to regulate
bubbles. The bundle comes out to about $250. I'll willing to spend
that money. My question is - where do I get CO2 tanks. I'm an EMT, I
know where to get O2. But where does an aquarist get CO2?

Also, my water has a high pH (about 7.6-7.8). I know adding CO2
lowers pH which would be good for the tank. I'm now sure what my gH
and Kh are. Would using a peat layer underneath my gravel be
beneficial?

Sarah



$250? on ebay? I can sell you a system for much less than that. You
need a regulator, bubblecounter and reactor. Your KH act as a buffer
to the pH. High KH means you can safely add more C02. C02 cannisters
are sold by gas suppliers, just look in your phonr book

Robert Hudson
www.aquabotanic.com

I'm trying to follow your advice! Actually, I'm looking into as many
possiblities as possible. Right now my tank is sitting empty in my
room. I've rushed into tanks before but I want to research this one
and start out right. (Plus I'm still looking for a place to find
flourite at a decent price).

I will probably go with one or two of the DIY CO2 injectors for now
but I figured I'd look at what my options are as far as the more
elaborate CO2 injectors on the market. In the long run, isn't it
better to have an automated pressurized system that will keep track of
pH?



"NetMax" wrote in message m...
LOL, you don't sound like you are following any advice in this thread,
but as long as you are still learning and we are giving you ideas, then
it's all good ;~) Your phone book should have listings. Many industries
use CO2 so it's readily available, but prices will vary.

Before installing the CO2, it would be instructive to know what your gH
and kH levels are. I don't think CO2 injection would do much to my tap
water when it's at 35dgH 16dkH, and if you are at 3dgH 2dkH then you
might be pearling your plants and looking for a way to periodically turn
off the CO2, so like so many aquaria questions, the answer is 'it
depends'.
--
www.NetMax.tk

"Sarah" wrote in message
om...
I've found several vendors on Ebay that will sell me a CO2 regulator,
a pH meter, some funky black thing whose name I forget to regulate
bubbles. The bundle comes out to about $250. I'll willing to spend
that money. My question is - where do I get CO2 tanks. I'm an EMT, I
know where to get O2. But where does an aquarist get CO2?

Also, my water has a high pH (about 7.6-7.8). I know adding CO2
lowers pH which would be good for the tank. I'm now sure what my gH
and Kh are. Would using a peat layer underneath my gravel be
beneficial?

Sarah


(Giancarlo Podio) wrote in message
om...
Sounds like you actually have a 75 gallon rather than a 55. Four 55w
CFs would give you a nice amount of light, but very close to too much
for a non-pressurized CO2 setup. I would aim slightly lower if you
plan to use DIY CO2. But still, if you have the patience to keep up
with them, a couple DIY CO2 bottles will work for you. I wouldn't
waste any money on off-the-shelf DIY CO2, they are no better than
regular DIY yeast/sugar mixes, save the money for a pressurized
setup.
As for the lighting, again probably a little too long, I'd start with
10-12 hours and see how things go, you may find yourself reducing it
if you run into any problems. Filter wise, the 2217 is what I use on
both 55 and 90 gallon tanks so I know that will work very well for
you. The 2028 is just as good, pretty much the same size, a little
bigger media storage I believe but very much the same. The HOB you
can
throw out the window, it's only going to reduce your CO2 levels and
it's not needed as any one of the other filters you have is more than
sufficient. A good size fish load may also help maintain higher CO2
levels, but obviously don't go overboard. As for the substrate,
flourite/gravel mix works well, I'd add a handfull of peat moss to
the
lowest layer along with 5-6 crushed Flourish Tabs. Then cap it all
with 3-4 inches of flourite/gravel mix. I don't think you'll be able
to maintain such a steep slope for too long (4" in back, 1/2-3/4" in
front) plus that could cause nutrients to come out of the lower
layers
of the substrate. I'd go with 4" in the back and 3" in front, all the
same gravel/flourite mix in case you decide you want some foreground
plants in the future.

Here's some basic info regarding DIY CO2 setups:
http://www.gpodio.com/diy_co2.asp

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio

$220 is crazy! Although you can get better deals if you wait for them
and buy used equipment, here's the bare minimum you would need to set
it up:

CO2 Tank:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...8081 483&rd=1

Regulator:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...1323 995&rd=1

Clippard Needle Valve:
http://www.clippard.com/store/displa...p?sku=MNV-4K2#

Clippard 1/4" NPT to 10-32 adapter:
http://www.clippard.com/store/displa...p?sku=4CQF-PKG

I don't use a bubble counter personally but you can add one for about
$10.

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio

(Sarah) wrote in message . com...
I've found several vendors on Ebay that will sell me a CO2 regulator,
a pH meter, some funky black thing whose name I forget to regulate
bubbles. The bundle comes out to about $250. I'll willing to spend
that money. My question is - where do I get CO2 tanks. I'm an EMT, I
know where to get O2. But where does an aquarist get CO2?

Also, my water has a high pH (about 7.6-7.8). I know adding CO2
lowers pH which would be good for the tank. I'm now sure what my gH
and Kh are. Would using a peat layer underneath my gravel be
beneficial?

Sarah


(Giancarlo Podio) wrote in message om...
Sounds like you actually have a 75 gallon rather than a 55. Four 55w
CFs would give you a nice amount of light, but very close to too much
for a non-pressurized CO2 setup. I would aim slightly lower if you
plan to use DIY CO2. But still, if you have the patience to keep up
with them, a couple DIY CO2 bottles will work for you. I wouldn't
waste any money on off-the-shelf DIY CO2, they are no better than
regular DIY yeast/sugar mixes, save the money for a pressurized setup.
As for the lighting, again probably a little too long, I'd start with
10-12 hours and see how things go, you may find yourself reducing it
if you run into any problems. Filter wise, the 2217 is what I use on
both 55 and 90 gallon tanks so I know that will work very well for
you. The 2028 is just as good, pretty much the same size, a little
bigger media storage I believe but very much the same. The HOB you can
throw out the window, it's only going to reduce your CO2 levels and
it's not needed as any one of the other filters you have is more than
sufficient. A good size fish load may also help maintain higher CO2
levels, but obviously don't go overboard. As for the substrate,
flourite/gravel mix works well, I'd add a handfull of peat moss to the
lowest layer along with 5-6 crushed Flourish Tabs. Then cap it all
with 3-4 inches of flourite/gravel mix. I don't think you'll be able
to maintain such a steep slope for too long (4" in back, 1/2-3/4" in
front) plus that could cause nutrients to come out of the lower layers
of the substrate. I'd go with 4" in the back and 3" in front, all the
same gravel/flourite mix in case you decide you want some foreground
plants in the future.

Here's some basic info regarding DIY CO2 setups:
http://www.gpodio.com/diy_co2.asp

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio

Perhaps it's because I don't have any background that it might seem to me
like you are rushing into CO2. Have you had planted tanks before such
that you know you need/want CO2? Most of my planted tanks do not have
CO2 and it means that I don't have to prune quite as often ;~). My CO2
tanks keep my pH low which is fine for the fish I have in there. I don't
have any plants which require CO2 to do well, and having over 100
aquariums, mostly planted, I'd be willing to wager that there isn't
anyone here with a bigger selection (I manage a fish store). Light still
seems to be the first constraint. CO2 injection with poor light doesn't
get you much further than if you didn't have CO2.

Have you measured your kH yet? The value of an automated injector
monitoring your pH would depend on whether your pH was likely to change
much, which would depend on your kH.

Having used flourite and gravel, I don't think I'd spend the extra for
flourite again. There are too many more important growth factors ahead
of whether your gravel is stone or fractured clay. jmo

I guess it depends on your level of expertise, your objective and how
quickly you want to get there.
--
www.NetMax.tk

"Sarah" wrote in message
om...
I'm trying to follow your advice! Actually, I'm looking into as many
possiblities as possible. Right now my tank is sitting empty in my
room. I've rushed into tanks before but I want to research this one
and start out right. (Plus I'm still looking for a place to find
flourite at a decent price).

I will probably go with one or two of the DIY CO2 injectors for now
but I figured I'd look at what my options are as far as the more
elaborate CO2 injectors on the market. In the long run, isn't it
better to have an automated pressurized system that will keep track of
pH?



"NetMax" wrote in message
m...
LOL, you don't sound like you are following any advice in this
thread,
but as long as you are still learning and we are giving you ideas,
then
it's all good ;~) Your phone book should have listings. Many
industries
use CO2 so it's readily available, but prices will vary.

Before installing the CO2, it would be instructive to know what your
gH
and kH levels are. I don't think CO2 injection would do much to my
tap
water when it's at 35dgH 16dkH, and if you are at 3dgH 2dkH then you
might be pearling your plants and looking for a way to periodically
turn
off the CO2, so like so many aquaria questions, the answer is 'it
depends'.
--
www.NetMax.tk

"Sarah" wrote in message
om...
I've found several vendors on Ebay that will sell me a CO2
regulator,
a pH meter, some funky black thing whose name I forget to regulate
bubbles. The bundle comes out to about $250. I'll willing to
spend
that money. My question is - where do I get CO2 tanks. I'm an
EMT, I
know where to get O2. But where does an aquarist get CO2?

Also, my water has a high pH (about 7.6-7.8). I know adding CO2
lowers pH which would be good for the tank. I'm now sure what my
gH
and Kh are. Would using a peat layer underneath my gravel be
beneficial?

Sarah


(Giancarlo Podio) wrote in message
om...
Sounds like you actually have a 75 gallon rather than a 55. Four
55w
CFs would give you a nice amount of light, but very close to too
much
for a non-pressurized CO2 setup. I would aim slightly lower if
you
plan to use DIY CO2. But still, if you have the patience to keep
up
with them, a couple DIY CO2 bottles will work for you. I wouldn't
waste any money on off-the-shelf DIY CO2, they are no better than
regular DIY yeast/sugar mixes, save the money for a pressurized
setup.
As for the lighting, again probably a little too long, I'd start
with
10-12 hours and see how things go, you may find yourself reducing
it
if you run into any problems. Filter wise, the 2217 is what I use
on
both 55 and 90 gallon tanks so I know that will work very well
for
you. The 2028 is just as good, pretty much the same size, a
little
bigger media storage I believe but very much the same. The HOB
you
can
throw out the window, it's only going to reduce your CO2 levels
and
it's not needed as any one of the other filters you have is more
than
sufficient. A good size fish load may also help maintain higher
CO2
levels, but obviously don't go overboard. As for the substrate,
flourite/gravel mix works well, I'd add a handfull of peat moss
to
the
lowest layer along with 5-6 crushed Flourish Tabs. Then cap it
all
with 3-4 inches of flourite/gravel mix. I don't think you'll be
able
to maintain such a steep slope for too long (4" in back, 1/2-3/4"
in
front) plus that could cause nutrients to come out of the lower
layers
of the substrate. I'd go with 4" in the back and 3" in front, all
the
same gravel/flourite mix in case you decide you want some
foreground
plants in the future.

Here's some basic info regarding DIY CO2 setups:
http://www.gpodio.com/diy_co2.asp

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio

I did check my parameters tonight. kH 8 and gH 13. Those are the
parameters in my existing 25 gallon. It does have one large piece of
bog wood and a couple of fist sized stones all from the lfs. Right
now these numbers don't mean much to me since I've never paid
attention to them before.

I'm so confused. There are so many variables: CO2, substrate,
lighting - and I'm getting so much advice. Maybe I should just fill
the tank, try it out and fix things that don't work as I go along?
I'm trying to set this tank up right but the "right" way to do it is
getting very murky.


"NetMax" wrote in message m...
Perhaps it's because I don't have any background that it might seem to me
like you are rushing into CO2. Have you had planted tanks before such
that you know you need/want CO2? Most of my planted tanks do not have
CO2 and it means that I don't have to prune quite as often ;~). My CO2
tanks keep my pH low which is fine for the fish I have in there. I don't
have any plants which require CO2 to do well, and having over 100
aquariums, mostly planted, I'd be willing to wager that there isn't
anyone here with a bigger selection (I manage a fish store). Light still
seems to be the first constraint. CO2 injection with poor light doesn't
get you much further than if you didn't have CO2.

Have you measured your kH yet? The value of an automated injector
monitoring your pH would depend on whether your pH was likely to change
much, which would depend on your kH.

Having used flourite and gravel, I don't think I'd spend the extra for
flourite again. There are too many more important growth factors ahead
of whether your gravel is stone or fractured clay. jmo

I guess it depends on your level of expertise, your objective and how
quickly you want to get there.
--
www.NetMax.tk

"Sarah" wrote in message
om...
I'm trying to follow your advice! Actually, I'm looking into as many
possiblities as possible. Right now my tank is sitting empty in my
room. I've rushed into tanks before but I want to research this one
and start out right. (Plus I'm still looking for a place to find
flourite at a decent price).

I will probably go with one or two of the DIY CO2 injectors for now
but I figured I'd look at what my options are as far as the more
elaborate CO2 injectors on the market. In the long run, isn't it
better to have an automated pressurized system that will keep track of
pH?



"NetMax" wrote in message
m...
LOL, you don't sound like you are following any advice in this
thread,
but as long as you are still learning and we are giving you ideas,
then
it's all good ;~) Your phone book should have listings. Many
industries
use CO2 so it's readily available, but prices will vary.

Before installing the CO2, it would be instructive to know what your
gH
and kH levels are. I don't think CO2 injection would do much to my
tap
water when it's at 35dgH 16dkH, and if you are at 3dgH 2dkH then you
might be pearling your plants and looking for a way to periodically
turn
off the CO2, so like so many aquaria questions, the answer is 'it
depends'.
--
www.NetMax.tk

"Sarah" wrote in message
om...
I've found several vendors on Ebay that will sell me a CO2
regulator,
a pH meter, some funky black thing whose name I forget to regulate
bubbles. The bundle comes out to about $250. I'll willing to
spend
that money. My question is - where do I get CO2 tanks. I'm an
EMT, I
know where to get O2. But where does an aquarist get CO2?

Also, my water has a high pH (about 7.6-7.8). I know adding CO2
lowers pH which would be good for the tank. I'm now sure what my
gH
and Kh are. Would using a peat layer underneath my gravel be
beneficial?

Sarah


(Giancarlo Podio) wrote in message
om...
Sounds like you actually have a 75 gallon rather than a 55. Four
55w
CFs would give you a nice amount of light, but very close to too
much
for a non-pressurized CO2 setup. I would aim slightly lower if
you
plan to use DIY CO2. But still, if you have the patience to keep
up
with them, a couple DIY CO2 bottles will work for you. I wouldn't
waste any money on off-the-shelf DIY CO2, they are no better than
regular DIY yeast/sugar mixes, save the money for a pressurized
setup.
As for the lighting, again probably a little too long, I'd start
with
10-12 hours and see how things go, you may find yourself reducing
it
if you run into any problems. Filter wise, the 2217 is what I use
on
both 55 and 90 gallon tanks so I know that will work very well
for
you. The 2028 is just as good, pretty much the same size, a
little
bigger media storage I believe but very much the same. The HOB
you
can
throw out the window, it's only going to reduce your CO2 levels
and
it's not needed as any one of the other filters you have is more
than
sufficient. A good size fish load may also help maintain higher
CO2
levels, but obviously don't go overboard. As for the substrate,
flourite/gravel mix works well, I'd add a handfull of peat moss
to
the
lowest layer along with 5-6 crushed Flourish Tabs. Then cap it
all
with 3-4 inches of flourite/gravel mix. I don't think you'll be
able
to maintain such a steep slope for too long (4" in back, 1/2-3/4"
in
front) plus that could cause nutrients to come out of the lower
layers
of the substrate. I'd go with 4" in the back and 3" in front, all
the
same gravel/flourite mix in case you decide you want some
foreground
plants in the future.

Here's some basic info regarding DIY CO2 setups:
http://www.gpodio.com/diy_co2.asp

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio

The amount of data available can be mind boggling. It's better to start
at the beginning. If you want a planted tank, you need light, water,
plants and nutrients (which you get from the back end of a fish after it
is fed ;~). Assuming your typical lighted tank (ie: 0.8 watts per
gallon), this arrangement will grow a variety of plants, slowly at first
and then they will pick up speed a bit. Some will not grow well, so you
will not be 100% successful (50% is pretty typical). You take your
victories and work with them, typically keeping about 6 to 8 types of
plants. You can stop here, #1.

Your next plateau is a lighting upgrade to around 2 wpg. This is enough
to see a noticeable difference in plant growth but not have the algae go
crazy. Your victories will grow faster, and some plants which had been
labouring will start showing more promise. With the investment in
lighting, a substrate change is usually attempted at this point, to a
finer gravel. You can stop here, #2.

Next plateau is either upgrading to around 3 wpg and/or adding CO2 (they
tend to go hand in hand at this level, as well as another substrate
change). With CO2, your victories might become a nuisance, but pruning
keeps them under control. Plants which were labouring will show new
growth. Some plants will die and there are still always plants which you
cannot grow, but the list of failures get shorter. Some of the plants
which seemed to be doing badly under the new higher light may return from
the dead with new leaves which don't burn so easily. Plants are
extremely adaptable, and with high light and CO2, they have a source of
energy to make their corrections. You can stop here, #3.

With CO2 and high light, it is like your aquarium is a time machine,
where time moves very quickly. Not only do plants grow quickly, but they
quickly strip the nutrients out of the water. At this compressed time
scale, when plants hit a constraint (ie: some mineral), they either hit a
wall (stop growing), or their rate of growth quickly diminishes as their
momentum is carried by stored energy, instead of water column nutrients.
Various symptoms appear (leaf coloration, growth rate etc). Enter the
world of adding fertilizers. There are automatic dosers, or you can do
it manually, weekly to daily, adjusting what trace minerals you add by
the visible symptoms. As long as things are becoming more automated, a
pressurized CO2 system starts making more sense. You can stop here, #4.

Ironically, aquatic plants (which suggests a very natural biotope) can go
from one extreme (no filters, no artificial lights) to another extreme
(very scientific and technical). There is no right or wrong, you decide
where on this scale you feel most comfortable, and the scale above was
quite arbitrary. You can mix & match and I'm sure everyone advances
through differently. I'm responsible for over a hundred tanks and while
they range through the first 3 categories, most are between #2 and #3
(non-CO2, fine gravel, under 1.2 wpg with a heavy fish-load (natural
fertilizer)), and the plants are gorgeous. My pruning load is acceptable
and I've found 3 plants which I cannot grow very well (out of hundreds).

If you are not sure where you will position yourself, then try not to
make any purchases which will restrict you later. Canister filters are
plant-tank friendly. A lighting upgrade is always a good investment.
Fine gravel is plant friendly. CO2 can always be added later. I
personally wouldn't waste much time and effort on substrate mixes. Once
the ideal size and texture is achieved, the differences start becoming
too subtle for me.

Regarding your water, measuring your source water might have been more
useful than some tank water, due to the presence of materials which would
alter the tank water's parameters after a while. Your kH 8 is your
buffer (8 degrees, or 143ppm). This is high enough to make your tank's
pH quite stable (stability is desirable, but it makes the pH harder to
change too). Your gH 13 (230ppm of primarily calcium) is listed as
fairly hard by http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html#reference . If I
reverse engineer your numbers, your pH is around 7.8, a bit high for some
applications but still very manageable. I've grown many plants in much
harder and more alkaline water, so while it isn't ideal, it is not too
far off the mark for low effort, if your expectations aren't too high.

I don't have any tanks running your parameters (I have some much higher
and much lower), so I can't speak from personal advice. I think you're a
good candidate for CO2 injection (if you decide to go that way), but the
effects will not be as dramatic as if the water had been softer to start
with. Some people soften their water by diluting it with RO, DI or
rainwater, but this adds a level of maintenance which some people find
excessive. In your conditions, very high light and no CO2 would be a
formula for algae, so I recommend that if not using CO2, keep your light
level under 3wpg. If using CO2, you will probably find dual DIYs or
pressurized will work best.

Some helpful articles here : http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/articles.htm
and I have many more sites bookmarked. I don't know how interested you
are in researching this to death (and I wouldn't). I'm no expert but
there isn't necessarily a 'right' way to do it anyways. If you want an
underwater garden au-naturel and are willing to wait for it, then start
the tank with a variety of plants and take it from there. If you want
more instant gratification, then get that CO2 bubbling and sharpen some
scissors ). Either way, some plants will not do well, and that's
perfectly normal. I hope what my answers lacked in accuracy, I've made
up for in perspective ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

"Sarah" wrote in message
om...
I did check my parameters tonight. kH 8 and gH 13. Those are the
parameters in my existing 25 gallon. It does have one large piece of
bog wood and a couple of fist sized stones all from the lfs. Right
now these numbers don't mean much to me since I've never paid
attention to them before.

I'm so confused. There are so many variables: CO2, substrate,
lighting - and I'm getting so much advice. Maybe I should just fill
the tank, try it out and fix things that don't work as I go along?
I'm trying to set this tank up right but the "right" way to do it is
getting very murky.


"NetMax" wrote in message
m...
Perhaps it's because I don't have any background that it might seem
to me
like you are rushing into CO2. Have you had planted tanks before
such
that you know you need/want CO2? Most of my planted tanks do not
have
CO2 and it means that I don't have to prune quite as often ;~). My
CO2
tanks keep my pH low which is fine for the fish I have in there. I
don't
have any plants which require CO2 to do well, and having over 100
aquariums, mostly planted, I'd be willing to wager that there isn't
anyone here with a bigger selection (I manage a fish store). Light
still
seems to be the first constraint. CO2 injection with poor light
doesn't
get you much further than if you didn't have CO2.

Have you measured your kH yet? The value of an automated injector
monitoring your pH would depend on whether your pH was likely to
change
much, which would depend on your kH.

Having used flourite and gravel, I don't think I'd spend the extra
for
flourite again. There are too many more important growth factors
ahead
of whether your gravel is stone or fractured clay. jmo

I guess it depends on your level of expertise, your objective and how
quickly you want to get there.
--
www.NetMax.tk

"Sarah" wrote in message
om...
I'm trying to follow your advice! Actually, I'm looking into as
many
possiblities as possible. Right now my tank is sitting empty in my
room. I've rushed into tanks before but I want to research this
one
and start out right. (Plus I'm still looking for a place to find
flourite at a decent price).

I will probably go with one or two of the DIY CO2 injectors for now
but I figured I'd look at what my options are as far as the more
elaborate CO2 injectors on the market. In the long run, isn't it
better to have an automated pressurized system that will keep track
of
pH?



"NetMax" wrote in message
m...
LOL, you don't sound like you are following any advice in this
thread,
but as long as you are still learning and we are giving you
ideas,
then
it's all good ;~) Your phone book should have listings. Many
industries
use CO2 so it's readily available, but prices will vary.

Before installing the CO2, it would be instructive to know what
your
gH
and kH levels are. I don't think CO2 injection would do much to
my
tap
water when it's at 35dgH 16dkH, and if you are at 3dgH 2dkH then
you
might be pearling your plants and looking for a way to
periodically
turn
off the CO2, so like so many aquaria questions, the answer is 'it
depends'.
--
www.NetMax.tk

"Sarah" wrote in message
om...
I've found several vendors on Ebay that will sell me a CO2
regulator,
a pH meter, some funky black thing whose name I forget to
regulate
bubbles. The bundle comes out to about $250. I'll willing to
spend
that money. My question is - where do I get CO2 tanks. I'm an
EMT, I
know where to get O2. But where does an aquarist get CO2?

Also, my water has a high pH (about 7.6-7.8). I know adding
CO2
lowers pH which would be good for the tank. I'm now sure what
my
gH
and Kh are. Would using a peat layer underneath my gravel be
beneficial?

Sarah


(Giancarlo Podio) wrote in message
om...
Sounds like you actually have a 75 gallon rather than a 55.
Four
55w
CFs would give you a nice amount of light, but very close to
too
much
for a non-pressurized CO2 setup. I would aim slightly lower
if
you
plan to use DIY CO2. But still, if you have the patience to
keep
up
with them, a couple DIY CO2 bottles will work for you. I
wouldn't
waste any money on off-the-shelf DIY CO2, they are no better
than
regular DIY yeast/sugar mixes, save the money for a
pressurized
setup.
As for the lighting, again probably a little too long, I'd
start
with
10-12 hours and see how things go, you may find yourself
reducing
it
if you run into any problems. Filter wise, the 2217 is what I
use
on
both 55 and 90 gallon tanks so I know that will work very
well
for
you. The 2028 is just as good, pretty much the same size, a
little
bigger media storage I believe but very much the same. The
HOB
you
can
throw out the window, it's only going to reduce your CO2
levels
and
it's not needed as any one of the other filters you have is
more
than
sufficient. A good size fish load may also help maintain
higher
CO2
levels, but obviously don't go overboard. As for the
substrate,
flourite/gravel mix works well, I'd add a handfull of peat
moss
to
the
lowest layer along with 5-6 crushed Flourish Tabs. Then cap
it
all
with 3-4 inches of flourite/gravel mix. I don't think you'll
be
able
to maintain such a steep slope for too long (4" in back,
1/2-3/4"
in
front) plus that could cause nutrients to come out of the
lower
layers
of the substrate. I'd go with 4" in the back and 3" in front,
all
the
same gravel/flourite mix in case you decide you want some
foreground
plants in the future.

Here's some basic info regarding DIY CO2 setups:
http://www.gpodio.com/diy_co2.asp

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio