Warren, you're not as informed as you think you are.
http://landresources.montana.edu/LRE...stry_Web.pd f

According to the site above, from University of Montana, the composition of
rainfall is nearly identical to seawater with some additional molecules
picked up in the atmosphere. Furthermore, rainfall is NEVER simple H20 -
because it also picks up many gases that are present in the atmosphere and
transports them.
However, more pertinent to the ongoing argument is the fact that strong
winds (as in hurricane or near-hurricane force winds) which Scotland is
subject to every year,send salt spray MILES inland - not a few feet, or even
a few hundred feet. This can be verified in any google search.
I think that the issue has been clouded by all this talk about what hits
the leaves of the plants. It is clear that the initial post had to do with
what happened at the ROOTS of the plants in question. It is VERY evident
that rhododendrons cannot have their roots soaked in salt water that sits on
them. Constant movement of water through the root zone will wash the salts
through them or out of them - but it has to be water that is relatively low
in salts, and the plants have to have excellent drainage. A plant sitting in
a low spot with salt water swirling around its base is a goner - no
question. A plant on a hillside hit with a strong blast of very salty water
but subsequently flushed with plenty of water that moves through and out of
the root zone will probably be fine. Janet is not claiming that Scottish
rhododendrons are living in salt marshes. What she IS claiming is that they
live in rather close proximity to the sea in rather salty environments in
Scotland - albeit in regions of very high rainfall.

"Warren" wrote in message
...
Janet Baraclough wrote:

The rain, and wind, come from 300 miles of Atlantic ocean and are
heavily salt-laden.

Next you'll be asserting water can be lit on fire! Salt is NOT
evaporated
into clouds & precipitation NEVER salinizes soils.

Wrong.


http://agspsrv34.agric.wa.gov.au/env...#salt%20source


If what you got out of that page is that salt can be evaporated into the
clouds, and that rain in coastal areas contains salt, then we can clearly
see how little you understand about even the most simple science.

The bottom line is rhodies will not grow in a saline environment, no
matter how much you want to argue with the experts. And the gardens you
are using as proof that the experts are wrong all work hard to protect
their rhodies from the saline that could otherwise easily create problems.

You can stop trying to be right. You can stop trying to prove that
accepted science is wrong. Every time you post, you demonstrate how little
you know, and how difficult of a time you have dealing with being wrong.
Save us all the pain of watching you dig yourself deeper and deeper into
your pit of humiliation. Stop now, because you obviously don't have the
temperament to deal with any further embarrassment.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Have an outdoor project? Get a Black & Decker power tool::
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blackanddecker/

A further elaboration of the theme of the chemical composition of rainfall:
"What is a chemical salt recipe for 'typical' rainwater?

Rainwater gets its compositions largely by dissolving particulate
materials in the atmosphere (upper troposhere) when droplets of water
nucleate on atmospheric particulates, and secondarily by dissolving gasses
from the atmosphere. Rainwater compositions vary geographically.

In open ocean and coastal areas they have a salt content essentially like
that of sea water (same ionic proportions but much more dilute) plus CO2 as
bicarbonate anion (acidic pH).

Terrestrial rain compositions vary siginificantly from place to place
because the regional geology can greatly affect the types of particulates
that get added to the atmosphere. Likewise, sources of gaesous acids (SO3,
NO2) and bases (NH3) vary as a function of biome factors and anthopogenic
land use practices. Each of these gasses can be added in varying proportions
from natural and non natural input sources (non-natural sources of SO3 and
NO2 far outweigh natural ones). Particulate load to the atmosphere can also
be greatly affected by human activities. Finally, local climate (especially
the amount of precipitation in one area compared to another) will affect the
solute concentrations in terrestrial rainwaters. The result is highly
variable compositions, so there isn't one simple formula.
If you want to read up a bit on this and see data for rainwater from
many different locales globally, I suggest the book "Global Environment:
water air and geochemical cycles" by Berner and Berner (Prentice-Hall, 1996)
or a similar text "

"presley" wrote in message
...
Warren, you're not as informed as you think you are.
http://landresources.montana.edu/LRE...stry_Web.pd f

According to the site above, from University of Montana, the composition
of rainfall is nearly identical to seawater with some additional molecules
picked up in the atmosphere. Furthermore, rainfall is NEVER simple H20 -
because it also picks up many gases that are present in the atmosphere and
transports them.
However, more pertinent to the ongoing argument is the fact that strong
winds (as in hurricane or near-hurricane force winds) which Scotland is
subject to every year,send salt spray MILES inland - not a few feet, or
even a few hundred feet. This can be verified in any google search.
I think that the issue has been clouded by all this talk about what
hits the leaves of the plants. It is clear that the initial post had to do
with what happened at the ROOTS of the plants in question. It is VERY
evident that rhododendrons cannot have their roots soaked in salt water
that sits on them. Constant movement of water through the root zone will
wash the salts through them or out of them - but it has to be water that
is relatively low in salts, and the plants have to have excellent
drainage. A plant sitting in a low spot with salt water swirling around
its base is a goner - no question. A plant on a hillside hit with a
strong blast of very salty water but subsequently flushed with plenty of
water that moves through and out of the root zone will probably be fine.
Janet is not claiming that Scottish rhododendrons are living in salt
marshes. What she IS claiming is that they live in rather close proximity
to the sea in rather salty environments in Scotland - albeit in regions of
very high rainfall.

"Warren" wrote in message
...
Janet Baraclough wrote:

The rain, and wind, come from 300 miles of Atlantic ocean and are
heavily salt-laden.

Next you'll be asserting water can be lit on fire! Salt is NOT
evaporated
into clouds & precipitation NEVER salinizes soils.

Wrong.


http://agspsrv34.agric.wa.gov.au/env...#salt%20source


If what you got out of that page is that salt can be evaporated into the
clouds, and that rain in coastal areas contains salt, then we can clearly
see how little you understand about even the most simple science.

The bottom line is rhodies will not grow in a saline environment, no
matter how much you want to argue with the experts. And the gardens you
are using as proof that the experts are wrong all work hard to protect
their rhodies from the saline that could otherwise easily create
problems.

You can stop trying to be right. You can stop trying to prove that
accepted science is wrong. Every time you post, you demonstrate how
little you know, and how difficult of a time you have dealing with being
wrong. Save us all the pain of watching you dig yourself deeper and
deeper into your pit of humiliation. Stop now, because you obviously
don't have the temperament to deal with any further embarrassment.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Have an outdoor project? Get a Black & Decker power tool::
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blackanddecker/

presley wrote:
A further elaboration of the theme of the chemical composition of
rainfall: "What is a chemical salt recipe for 'typical' rainwater?

Rainwater gets its compositions largely by dissolving particulate
materials in the atmosphere (upper troposhere) when droplets of
water nucleate on atmospheric particulates, and secondarily by
dissolving gasses from the atmosphere. Rainwater compositions vary
geographically.
In open ocean and coastal areas they have a salt content
essentially like that of sea water (same ionic proportions but much
more dilute) plus CO2 as bicarbonate anion (acidic pH).

Terrestrial rain compositions vary siginificantly from place to
place because the regional geology can greatly affect the types of
particulates that get added to the atmosphere. Likewise, sources of
gaesous acids (SO3, NO2) and bases (NH3) vary as a function of
biome factors and anthopogenic land use practices. Each of these
gasses can be added in varying proportions from natural and non
natural input sources (non-natural sources of SO3 and NO2 far
outweigh natural ones). Particulate load to the atmosphere can also
be greatly affected by human activities. Finally, local climate
(especially the amount of precipitation in one area compared to
another) will affect the solute concentrations in terrestrial
rainwaters. The result is highly variable compositions, so there
isn't one simple formula. If you want to read up a bit on this and
see data for rainwater from many different locales globally, I
suggest the book "Global
Environment: water air and geochemical cycles" by Berner and Berner
(Prentice-Hall, 1996) or a similar text "

Here in the PNW our rain comes in off the Pacific Ocean and it is not
the least bit salty.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
Sunset Zone 5

You are misunderstanding the content of the site. Warren seemed to be
pretending that there is no saline content of rainfall whatsoever - that is
patently false. There are scientists who measure these things very
carefully, and they have weighed in on the matter in the sites below and
elsewhere. But buried in the same site are the words "SAME IONIC PROPORTIONS
BUT MUCH MORE DILUTE". There is a great deal of salt in many aquifers, but
the water is potable - because it is more DILUTE than seawater. As someone
from FAR FAR inland, I can smell the salt in the air long before I'm in
sight of the ocean - because salt is coming in on the ocean breeze. Does
this mean it is coming in in quantities sufficient to kill vegetation? No.
Honestly, there are days I think reading comprehension should be a
prerequisite for internet participation.
"Travis" wrote in message
news:VlsLe.2467$%K4.441@trnddc09...
presley wrote:
A further elaboration of the theme of the chemical composition of
rainfall: "What is a chemical salt recipe for 'typical' rainwater?

Rainwater gets its compositions largely by dissolving particulate
materials in the atmosphere (upper troposhere) when droplets of
water nucleate on atmospheric particulates, and secondarily by
dissolving gasses from the atmosphere. Rainwater compositions vary
geographically.
In open ocean and coastal areas they have a salt content
essentially like that of sea water (same ionic proportions but much
more dilute) plus CO2 as bicarbonate anion (acidic pH).

Terrestrial rain compositions vary siginificantly from place to
place because the regional geology can greatly affect the types of
particulates that get added to the atmosphere. Likewise, sources of
gaesous acids (SO3, NO2) and bases (NH3) vary as a function of
biome factors and anthopogenic land use practices. Each of these
gasses can be added in varying proportions from natural and non
natural input sources (non-natural sources of SO3 and NO2 far
outweigh natural ones). Particulate load to the atmosphere can also
be greatly affected by human activities. Finally, local climate
(especially the amount of precipitation in one area compared to
another) will affect the solute concentrations in terrestrial
rainwaters. The result is highly variable compositions, so there
isn't one simple formula. If you want to read up a bit on this and
see data for rainwater from many different locales globally, I suggest
the book "Global
Environment: water air and geochemical cycles" by Berner and Berner
(Prentice-Hall, 1996) or a similar text "

Here in the PNW our rain comes in off the Pacific Ocean and it is not the
least bit salty.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
Sunset Zone 5

In article , "presley"
wrote:

As someone
from FAR FAR inland, I can smell the salt in the air long before I'm in
sight of the ocean - because salt is coming in on the ocean breeze.

Salt is odorless. You are smelling poop, decay, & acetate.

-paggers
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson

"presley" wrote:

Warren, you're not as informed as you think you are.
http://landresources.montana.edu/LRE...pic%20B2_Part1
_Solution_Chemistry_Web.pdf

According to the site above, from University of Montana, the composition of
rainfall is nearly identical to seawater with some additional molecules
picked up in the atmosphere.

Let's see now:

1) People drink rain water, especially on ocean islands where there is
no other fresh water, are very healthy.

2) People who drink sea water die.

and you claim that they are the same. I hope you don't try to drink sea
water.

--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman

In article , Stephen
Henning wrote:

"presley" wrote:

Warren, you're not as informed as you think you are.

http://landresources.montana.edu/LRE...pic%20B2_Part1
_Solution_Chemistry_Web.pdf

According to the site above, from University of Montana, the composition of
rainfall is nearly identical to seawater with some additional molecules
picked up in the atmosphere.

Let's see now:

1) People drink rain water, especially on ocean islands where there is
no other fresh water, are very healthy.

2) People who drink sea water die.

and you claim that they are the same. I hope you don't try to drink sea
water.

The methods by which it can be assessed that rainwater is evaporative from
the sea measured for it's isotopic signature & ionic proportionality does
not mean rainfall that is the "same" as the sea for salt content. When by
mass ratio it can be proven that sodium & chloride ions in groundwater are
"the same as seawater" this means whatever the salt load (whether barely
detectible or extremely great) originated in the ocean vs originating in
mineral dissolution or man-caused pollutants. It does NOT mean the
groundwater or the rainfall is sal****er. It just doesn't mean that. As
sensible to believe being that signatures & proportionality "the same as
seawater" means rainfall is teaming with plankton & jellyfish.

Salinity in soil DECREASES in areas of highest rainfall. If rain were
salty the opposite would be true, & much of the world would drop dead
because rainwater would be unfit to drink.

Rainfall even lowers the salinity in tidal areas of the ocean itself. In
the Ariake Sea for a studied example, salinity for most of the year is a
fairly constant 25-26%. During the rainy monsoon season salinity drops to
15% [H. Koike, University of Tokkyo Bulletin 18, 1980]. So too mangrove
swamps become decreasingly salinized when deluted during rainy seasons. If
the "sameness" of rainwater & seawater was defined by their salt content,
tidal environments would not have lowered salinity during heavy rainfall,
& the land surface would become so salinized, within a year or two the
earth would no longer be habitable my man.

What sodium does find its way into rainfall is generally assumed to be of
ocean origin. It is such an inconsequential component that rainfall is
NEVER given as one of the causes of inland salinization.

It's beyond comprehension that even one person really believes rainfall
has the same salt content as the sea. Such belief is explicable only if
scientific knowledge, ability to reason, or even the ability to draw
personal conclusions after opening one's mouth in a rainstorm, are fast
slipping away from an increasingly imbecilic population.

And so the thread gets increasingly stupid from assertions that
rhododendrons are planted as salt air windbreaks, that the Atlantic ocean
dumps sal****er 300 miles inland from rainclouds & storms, & that sodium
mass ratio statistics for FRESHWATER somehow prove that freshwater is in
reality sal****er. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

-paghat the ratgirl
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:23:58 -0700,
(paghat) posted:

In article , Stephen
Henning wrote:

"presley" wrote:

Warren, you're not as informed as you think you are.

http://landresources.montana.edu/LRE...pic%20B2_Part1
_Solution_Chemistry_Web.pdf

According to the site above, from University of Montana, the composition of
rainfall is nearly identical to seawater with some additional molecules
picked up in the atmosphere.

Let's see now:

1) People drink rain water, especially on ocean islands where there is
no other fresh water, are very healthy.

2) People who drink sea water die.

and you claim that they are the same. I hope you don't try to drink sea
water.

The methods by which it can be assessed that rainwater is evaporative from
the sea measured for it's isotopic signature & ionic proportionality does
not mean rainfall that is the "same" as the sea for salt content. When by
mass ratio it can be proven that sodium & chloride ions in groundwater are
"the same as seawater" this means whatever the salt load (whether barely
detectible or extremely great) originated in the ocean vs originating in
mineral dissolution or man-caused pollutants. It does NOT mean the
groundwater or the rainfall is sal****er. It just doesn't mean that. As
sensible to believe being that signatures & proportionality "the same as
seawater" means rainfall is teaming with plankton & jellyfish.

Salinity in soil DECREASES in areas of highest rainfall. If rain were
salty the opposite would be true, & much of the world would drop dead
because rainwater would be unfit to drink.

Rainfall even lowers the salinity in tidal areas of the ocean itself. In
the Ariake Sea for a studied example, salinity for most of the year is a
fairly constant 25-26%. During the rainy monsoon season salinity drops to
15% [H. Koike, University of Tokkyo Bulletin 18, 1980]. So too mangrove
swamps become decreasingly salinized when deluted during rainy seasons. If
the "sameness" of rainwater & seawater was defined by their salt content,
tidal environments would not have lowered salinity during heavy rainfall,
& the land surface would become so salinized, within a year or two the
earth would no longer be habitable my man.

What sodium does find its way into rainfall is generally assumed to be of
ocean origin. It is such an inconsequential component that rainfall is
NEVER given as one of the causes of inland salinization.

It's beyond comprehension that even one person really believes rainfall
has the same salt content as the sea. Such belief is explicable only if
scientific knowledge, ability to reason, or even the ability to draw
personal conclusions after opening one's mouth in a rainstorm, are fast
slipping away from an increasingly imbecilic population.


It is as bad as all that, Paggie. The abilities are down, the
increasinglies are up, way up. It's becoming harder and harder to
carry on simple, ordinary, succinct conversations with average
people.

"It's beyond comprehension ... ". I like that.

"And your wise men don't know how it fee--ee-eels
To be thick
As a brick."

Me, I revere the small islands of sun drenched sanity that still
exist. Carry on.

Implanted

And so the thread gets increasingly stupid from assertions that
rhododendrons are planted as salt air windbreaks, that the Atlantic ocean
dumps sal****er 300 miles inland from rainclouds & storms, & that sodium
mass ratio statistics for FRESHWATER somehow prove that freshwater is in
reality sal****er. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

-paghat the ratgirl

The message
from (paghat) contains these words:



What sodium does find its way into rainfall is generally assumed to be of
ocean origin.

Ah, a change of heart from your earlier mistake when you claimed

Salt is NOT evaporated
into clouds & precipitation NEVER salinizes soils.

(It does salinate soil in Australia, btw..cite already provided)

And so the thread gets increasingly stupid from assertions that
rhododendrons are planted as salt air windbreaks,

Osgood Mackennzie used rhododendron ponticum for that purpose at Inverewe.

that the Atlantic ocean
dumps sal****er 300 miles inland from rainclouds & storms,

That stupid assertion was by yourself, nobody else, when you said

If you can cite something
factual & scientific as evidence that the Atlantic ocean leaps up & jumps
300 miles inland, cite that wondrous evidence that rainfall occurs
differently in Scotland than in any other place on Earth.

Janet

In article , Janet Baraclough
wrote:

The message
from (paghat) contains these words:



What sodium does find its way into rainfall is generally assumed to be of
ocean origin.

Ah, a change of heart from your earlier mistake when you claimed

Salt is NOT evaporated
into clouds & precipitation NEVER salinizes soils.

So that says to you salt evaporates does it? Sodium isotopic signatures
are not evidence that freshwater is sal****er, no more than is a
fingerprint left on your booze glass proof that the glass is actually your
finger, or a crime lab's DNA reading from a cigarette butt proof that that
cigarettes are people. Here's an elementary school science fact for you:
Salt does not evaporate because it is non-volatile.

Perhaps you're legitimately not smart enough to tell sal****er from
freshwater, but the facts do remain salt does NOT evaporate into clouds &
it's loony to persist in your belief that it does. Rainfall does NOT
salinize soil as you persist in believing; the facts are the exact
opposite of what you eerily want to believe is true.

This really simple child's science experiment tends to convince the kiddies:

Dissolve precisely 15 ml of salt (about a tablespoon) in a half a cup of
water. Set in sun until water evaporates. Weigh salt. From this a very
young school child learns that salt does not evaporate or undergo any
chemical alteration in water. Alas, I suspect YOUR conclusion would have
to be that the 15 ml of crystals left in the cup is dehydrated water
concentrate, because the salt evaporated.

It's beyond comprehension that even one person really believes rainfall
has the same salt content as the sea. Such belief is explicable only if
scientific knowledge, ability to reason, or even the ability to draw
personal conclusions after opening one's mouth in a rainstorm, are fast
slipping away from an increasingly imbecilic population.

-paghat the ratgirl
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson

Janet Baraclough expounded:

(It does salinate soil in Australia, btw..cite already provided)

No, it doesn't. What salinates the soil in Australia is too
complicated to get into here, it has to do with underground salt
deposits, the loss of native cover and the inability of the soil to
deal with all the water. The salt is already there, in vast
underground stores. See
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3564857.stm for a bit of
what's going on.
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

presley wrote:
Warren, you're not as informed as you think you are.
http://landresources.montana.edu/LRE...stry_Web.pd f

According to the site above, from University of Montana, the
composition of rainfall is nearly identical to seawater with some
additional molecules picked up in the atmosphere. Furthermore,
rainfall is NEVER simple H20 - because it also picks up many gases
that are present in the atmosphere and transports them.
However, more pertinent to the ongoing argument is the fact that
strong winds (as in hurricane or near-hurricane force winds) which
Scotland is subject to every year,send salt spray MILES inland -
not a few feet, or even a few hundred feet. This can be verified in
any google search. I think that the issue has been clouded by
all this talk about what hits the leaves of the plants. It is clear
that the initial post had to do with what happened at the ROOTS of
the plants in question. It is VERY evident that rhododendrons
cannot have their roots soaked in salt water that sits on them.
Constant movement of water through the root zone will wash the
salts through them or out of them - but it has to be water that is
relatively low in salts, and the plants have to have excellent
drainage. A plant sitting in a low spot with salt water swirling
around its base is a goner - no question. A plant on a hillside
hit with a strong blast of very salty water but subsequently
flushed with plenty of water that moves through and out of the root
zone will probably be fine. Janet is not claiming that Scottish
rhododendrons are living in salt marshes. What she IS claiming is
that they live in rather close proximity to the sea in rather salty
environments in Scotland - albeit in regions of very high rainfall.

A plant sitting in a low spot with distilled water swirling around its
base is a gonner.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
Sunset Zone 5