Vox Humana wrote:

"Bill" wrote in message
...

Apples never grow true from seed, and seldom are very good, but at least
an apple tree that you grew from a seed will be *unique* :-)

Best regards,
Bob


Yup, the worse that could happen is the tree dies. The best, he gets a
good tasting apple. Most likely, he gets a shade tree, but the kid gets
to, mayby, develop an interest in growing things and that's the
important part.

Bill


If the kids are typical, they will have forgotten about the tree in about 3
minutes. Meanwhile you will be stuck with a tree that is almost guaranteed
to be worthless in terms of fruit production and which is likely to grow
quite large. If the kids are 7 now, they will be about 17 when the tree
first produces apples. You know how excited a 17 year old can get about a
tree producing inedible apples -- I'd say about as excited as making
sauerkraut or doing the ironing. Meanwhile you will be picking up the
rotting fruit that attracts yellow jackets and other wildlife. Furthermore,
the typical family moves about every 5 years, so the chances of even being
around when the tree produces is quite slim. I see people make really poor
plant choices in my neighborhood and then move. The problem is ultimately
passed along to someone else. That innocent experiment or impulse purchase
turns into someone else's expensive tree removal.

But if one really wants a full-sized apple tree anyway, a seedling is
not a bad way to start. You can graft it or bud it later. Full-sized
(a.k.a. standard) is the key here, and a standard apple is a poor choice
for most people because they are so large and because they take so long
to begin fruiting.

There are lots of plants you can grow from seed besides apples. If you want
to teach a science lesson then by all means do it. If you want fruit grown
on a manageable tree, then buy one. There is no need for both "experiments"
to be linked. I see parents project their own interests onto children. It
is surprising how little Megan becomes interested in making ice-cream when
it just happens that mom is interested in making ice-cream. Therefore, mom
justifies her purchase of the $400 ice-cream freezer based on her 6 year
old's sudden interest. This is a scenario that actually happened in my
family.

We've all done that. ;-)

Best regards,
Bob

In article ,
"Vox Humana" wrote:

"Bill" wrote in message
...

Apples never grow true from seed, and seldom are very good, but at least
an apple tree that you grew from a seed will be *unique* :-)

Best regards,
Bob


Yup, the worse that could happen is the tree dies. The best, he gets a
good tasting apple. Most likely, he gets a shade tree, but the kid gets
to, mayby, develop an interest in growing things and that's the
important part.

Bill

If the kids are typical, they will have forgotten about the tree in about 3
minutes. Meanwhile you will be stuck with a tree that is almost guaranteed
to be worthless in terms of fruit production and which is likely to grow
quite large. If the kids are 7 now, they will be about 17 when the tree
first produces apples. You know how excited a 17 year old can get about a
tree producing inedible apples -- I'd say about as excited as making
sauerkraut or doing the ironing. Meanwhile you will be picking up the
rotting fruit that attracts yellow jackets and other wildlife. Furthermore,
the typical family moves about every 5 years, so the chances of even being
around when the tree produces is quite slim. I see people make really poor
plant choices in my neighborhood and then move. The problem is ultimately
passed along to someone else. That innocent experiment or impulse purchase
turns into someone else's expensive tree removal.

Snip

I've been here for 50 years. Mistakes aplenty, but still OK. I'm
inclined to encourage many mistakes yet at the same time I wonder what I
culled may have harbored a mistake or loss of beauty.
We name trees that got our attention and sometimes however the Linnea
tree is of no value except to burn during the holidays over time.
Typical child is a misnomer. Let them make mistakes and maybe they
will learn by them. Hope so! Won't have much to market only memories
that possess a physical manifestation.

58 Year old child Bill who smiled when a four year old wanted to garden.

--
Garden Shade Zone 5 S Jersey USA in a Japanese Jungle Manner.39.6376 -75.0208
This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.

"William Wagner" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Vox Humana" wrote:

I've been here for 50 years. Mistakes aplenty, but still OK. I'm
inclined to encourage many mistakes yet at the same time I wonder what I
culled may have harbored a mistake or loss of beauty.
We name trees that got our attention and sometimes however the Linnea
tree is of no value except to burn during the holidays over time.
Typical child is a misnomer. Let them make mistakes and maybe they
will learn by them. Hope so! Won't have much to market only memories
that possess a physical manifestation.

58 Year old child Bill who smiled when a four year old wanted to garden.

It seems the lesson here is that you can manipulate your parents into
tending a worthless tree for several decades. Now, if you follow through
and make the 15 year old cut the tree down and dig out the stump instead of
going to Disney World, then indeed there might be a lesson.

Vox Humana wrote:
"William Wagner" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Vox Humana" wrote:

I've been here for 50 years. Mistakes aplenty, but still OK. I'm
inclined to encourage many mistakes yet at the same time I wonder what I
culled may have harbored a mistake or loss of beauty.
We name trees that got our attention and sometimes however the Linnea
tree is of no value except to burn during the holidays over time.
Typical child is a misnomer. Let them make mistakes and maybe they
will learn by them. Hope so! Won't have much to market only memories
that possess a physical manifestation.

58 Year old child Bill who smiled when a four year old wanted to garden.


It seems the lesson here is that you can manipulate your parents into
tending a worthless tree for several decades. Now, if you follow through
and make the 15 year old cut the tree down and dig out the stump instead of
going to Disney World, then indeed there might be a lesson.


Why are you so angry today?

Best regards,
Bob

"K. Kly" wrote in message
...
So one day my 4 yr old is eating an apple and asks my wife about seeds &
such. So they decide to do a little expirement and plant the seed. Low
and
behold a seedling sprouts up and they cherish it and nuture it, etc, etc.
5
months later and the thing is only about 5 inches tall, but has a bunch of
leaves on it. They've got it in a little container(we live in Ohio).

Thing is, they both think they are going to plant it outside next spring
and
my wife seems to think that in a few years we'll have an apple tree. And
of
course she is telling my son this. Meanwhile, I'm skeptical of the whole
thing. First of all, we don't know what kind of apple it was, we don't
know
if it'll survive in Ohio and we certainly don't know if it will bear
fruit.
Doesn't their have to be some cross pollination or something for a tree to
bare fruit?

What's the fture of this 5inch apple tree?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Many well known apples were found originally as seedlings. That so few
exist, and have not been improved, shows how unlikely your seedling will be
worthwhile in the 15yrs it will take to fruit. Nothing ever grows totally
true from seed and apples have such a complicated background~~ making your
chances minuscule. HOWEVER you could quite simply graft your seedling onto
a small branch of an existing fruiting~ age tree and then expect fruit in
fewer months than years. It just might have been worthwhile. If
worthwhile~ then graft on to other rootstocks and await your fortune!!
Commercially millions are grown and grafted in this way each year but
few, if any, become well known.
Best Wishes Brian.

In article ,
"Vox Humana" wrote:

"William Wagner" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Vox Humana" wrote:

I've been here for 50 years. Mistakes aplenty, but still OK. I'm
inclined to encourage many mistakes yet at the same time I wonder what I
culled may have harbored a mistake or loss of beauty.
We name trees that got our attention and sometimes however the Linnea
tree is of no value except to burn during the holidays over time.
Typical child is a misnomer. Let them make mistakes and maybe they
will learn by them. Hope so! Won't have much to market only memories
that possess a physical manifestation.

58 Year old child Bill who smiled when a four year old wanted to garden.

It seems the lesson here is that you can manipulate your parents into
tending a worthless tree for several decades. Now, if you follow through
and make the 15 year old cut the tree down and dig out the stump instead of
going to Disney World, then indeed there might be a lesson.

Parents are manipulated . Get with the program. Look at baby Jays and
how they run their parents about. I see no difference as if on the
chance that in the next generation it is easier. No guarantees as
like garden foibles all can be reflected in life foibles.
Worthless in the eye of the perceiver. Some bird or woodpecker may
differ. Don't worry about work expended its what we do and hope for no
wars or car accidents.

Your option sit and rock or go for it.


Bill

--
Garden Shade Zone 5 S Jersey USA in a Japanese Jungle Manner.39.6376 -75.0208
This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.

"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...
Vox Humana wrote:
"William Wagner" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Vox Humana" wrote:

I've been here for 50 years. Mistakes aplenty, but still OK. I'm
inclined to encourage many mistakes yet at the same time I wonder what I
culled may have harbored a mistake or loss of beauty.
We name trees that got our attention and sometimes however the Linnea
tree is of no value except to burn during the holidays over time.
Typical child is a misnomer. Let them make mistakes and maybe they
will learn by them. Hope so! Won't have much to market only memories
that possess a physical manifestation.

58 Year old child Bill who smiled when a four year old wanted to
garden.


It seems the lesson here is that you can manipulate your parents into
tending a worthless tree for several decades. Now, if you follow
through
and make the 15 year old cut the tree down and dig out the stump instead
of
going to Disney World, then indeed there might be a lesson.


Why are you so angry today?

I'm not angry. I'm just have a different take on the situation.

In article ,
says...



snip

Me thinks thou doth project too much.

Bill

In article , pon@blurry-
vision.com says...

snick

One of the trees
turned out to be a "Blood Orange". The fruit is small .... just a little
bigger than a lemon although it is more spherical in shape than a lemon
with juice that is bright red in color. It is tasty but not worth the
trouble to eat. The tree is still in my back yard but only because I have
not gotten around to digging it up and disposing of it.

sneck
PON



Juice those blood oranges, they make great sangria.

If you have little kids that are into grossness, make some ice cubes
with the juice then put the ice cubes in their regular OJ. Bleeding ice
cubes in OJ, or just give them the juice and tell them it's Vampire
Breakfast.

Bill

Wait a minute. This guy is going to put lots of labor into caring for this tree, and 5 or
more years down the road, he is going to wind up with a junky apple, unless of course you believe in
miracles, but that's not where I would put my money or time.
If he really wants a good tasting apple, let him shell out 15 or 20 bucks and buy
something decent. I'm not going to even mention grafting, as I think he has not reached that point
of involvement in growing apples.

Sherwin D.



Bill wrote:

In article , says...
Bill wrote:
In article t,
says...

Charles wrote:

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 18:51:18 GMT, "Vox Humana"
wrote:




It is my understanding that all apples grown for eating come from grafted
trees. The apples do no pass on a clone of their own genes and the apples
that come from seeds are inferior. "Johnny Appleseed" apparently planted
trees to bear fruit intended for the production of hard cider. You may have
a tree from the seed, but it could be one that is prone to disease and
produce inferior fruit.



It may be inferior, or it may not. The tree I have, Dorset Golden, is
listed as a chance seedling found in Bermuda. Good apples and very
low chilling requirements.

The tree will probably be inferior, but it may be superior, no way to
tell without trying.

fun to grow your own, as long as you have reasonable expectations.

I'd say, if you have the space to spare, go for it.

That's the fun part about gardening--the experiments!

Rob
http://www.hammerandsaw.com



Yup, six years ago I stuck some seeds from a citrus I was eating
in a pot of soil. People said they probably wouldn't germanate.

Two came up. People here locally said the sprouts probably
wouldn't last long. One has survived, transplanted into a 22 inch pot.

Then people said it probably would never bloom and even if it did it
would more 'n likely be sterile and not produce any fruit. This year it
finally bloomed for the first time and has about 2 dozen citrus on it
up to an inch and a half across. Now I'm getting " The fruit will
probably taste like crap " from them. We'll see, so far the nay sayers
are batting zero.

You may be wondering why I keep saying citrus. To tell the truth, I
plumb forgot what type of citrus it was I was eating when I stuck the
seeds in the ground. I do remember thinking it was a most excellent
fruit, which is why I stuck the seeds in an unused pot. Now I've had
months of expectation anticipating how they're going to taste.

You just can't buy entertainment like this. Some friends even have a
lottery going as to what it's going to be.

Who said gardening is boring?

Bill who was privledged to see a most excellent rainbow this
evening while enjoying the fragrances wafting off his Sweet Autumn
Clematis and Angels Trumpet, living la vida loca.
Waves Hi to Maddy


Citrus often *does* grow true from seed. Sometimes citrus seeds will
grow 2 plants instead of one, and I've read that one of those will be a
clone of the mother plant. I don't know if it's the larger or the
smaller sprout, but if you only keep seedlings from seeds that grow 2
shoots, and you seperate and keep both seedlings, at least 50% should be
good.

Apples never grow true from seed, and seldom are very good, but at least
an apple tree that you grew from a seed will be *unique* :-)

Best regards,
Bob


Yup, the worse that could happen is the tree dies. The best, he gets a
good tasting apple. Most likely, he gets a shade tree, but the kid gets
to, mayby, develop an interest in growing things and that's the
important part.

Bill

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 23:57:58 -0500, sherwindu
wrote:

Wait a minute. This guy is going to put lots of labor into caring for this tree, and 5 or
more years down the road, he is going to wind up with a junky apple, unless of course you believe in
miracles, but that's not where I would put my money or time.
If he really wants a good tasting apple, let him shell out 15 or 20 bucks and buy
something decent. I'm not going to even mention grafting, as I think he has not reached that point
of involvement in growing apples.

Sherwin D.


and maybe have some fun doing it. Did you ever try something that you
didn't know ahead of time how it would turn out?

Just like with car mechanics, you better know who you are dealing with. I bought my first fruit
trees from Franks Nursery
15 years ago, and they all came out as specified. Now I generally deal with mail order companies
who ship small grafted
whips. Even these people are not all reliable, a good indication is asking them what rootstock the
tree is planted on.
If they can't tell you, the warning buzzers should go off.

I'm surprised you went back to the same nursery for Seckel Pears, after your experience with the
Navel Oranges.

Your suggestion about grafting your own trees is basically good, but how many people know how to
graft, and how sure
can you be that the scion is what you think it is. Again, there are reputable companies out there
who you can depend on
for sending the correct scion.

Your last suggestion for a 5 in 1 apple tree is not a good one from my experience. These kinds of
trees I have found to
be weak and die rather quickly.

By the way, the biggest effect of a rootstock is on the size of the tree, and in some cases its
productivity, not the taste
of the apples on it.

Sherwin D.

"Pseud O. Nym" wrote:

sherwindu wrote in
:

You can buy a small tree for as little as 15 to 20 dollars and you
then know exactly what variety you have.

++++++++++++

I am sorry but I have to 100% disagree with this point.

About a dozen years ago, I bought a Navel orange tree to plant in my back
yard. I was over-joyed with the delicious oranges that it produced the
very first year so I decided to plant two more Navel orange trees.

I went to the nursery and checked the stock of citrus trees. Each plant
had a label glued onto the pot which declared it to be a Navel orange.
Each plant also had a plastic strip wrapped around the trunk saying
"Navel Orange" and each plant had a large tag hanging from it with a
photograph and planting instructions and specifications and "Navel
Orange" declared in large letters. I picked out the two best looking ones
and planted them.

As soon as they produced fruit I knew something was not right. None of
the fruit had navels (Belly Buttons) on them. I watched with interest to
see what the ripe fruit would be like when they ripened. One of the trees
turned out to be a "Blood Orange". The fruit is small .... just a little
bigger than a lemon although it is more spherical in shape than a lemon
with juice that is bright red in color. It is tasty but not worth the
trouble to eat. The tree is still in my back yard but only because I have
not gotten around to digging it up and disposing of it. The other tree
was a dissapointment at first because it was not a Navel Orange but it
has turned out to be a real treasure. It produces large fruit which has
seeds and no Belly Button but it has a characteristic which makes it
highly desirable. The fruit ripens between Thanksgiving and Christmas and
it stays fresh and delicious hanging on the tree almost the entire year
long. I have no idea what type of Orange it is but I am very happy to
have it.

After this experience I wanted to plant a Seckel Pear. I told the owner
of the nursery about my experience with the Navel Oranges and asked, "Are
you sure that these trees are Seckel Pears?" He replied, "There is no way
to be sure. I had a special order for 200 Seckel pear trees. This is what
my supplier shipped to me but you can never know for sure".

Hello, more warning bells.

I do not
believe that what I got was a Seckel pear. The fruit does not look like
the photos of Seckel pears that I have seen but it is not a bad pear
either so I will not complain.

My conclusion is this. There is only one sure way to know what you are
getting. Plant a seedling for rootstock. Then take a scion from a known
tree of the desired type and graph it onto the rootstock. Even then the
rootstock selected could possibly have a effect on the finished product.
When it comes to apple trees you can buy a 5-in-1 at some nurseries. This
is a potted tree with 5 different varieties graphted onto a single
rootstock. Let it grow and in later years just prune off the parts that
you dont like.

Them's my thoughts,

PON

In article ,
says...

Top posting fixed.
snip
Wait a minute. This guy is going to put lots of labor into caring for this tree, and 5 or
more years down the road, he is going to wind up with a junky apple, unless of course you believe in
miracles, but that's not where I would put my money or time.

You're omnipotent enough to forcast what's going to happen in 5 years
but don't believe in miracles! Wow.

If he really wants a good tasting apple, let him shell out 15 or 20 bucks and buy
something decent. I'm not going to even mention grafting, as I think he has not reached that point
of involvement in growing apples.


Maybe he just wants to experiment, or possibly have some father son
time.

Sherwin D.



Bill

Vox Humana wrote:
I see people make really poor
plant choices in my neighborhood and then move. The problem is ultimately
passed along to someone else. That innocent experiment or impulse purchase
turns into someone else's expensive tree removal.


God bless America!

I think it's a good thing that people have an opportunity to make stupid
choices, don't you? Otherwise life would be kind of boring. Especially
in the suburbs.

BTW, I like the pear tree that came up from a seed at my parent's house
10 or so years ago. It's about 30 feet tall (pears grow straight up like
a poplar if they get a chance) and it's way too close to the garage. It
is disease free and has hard little pears a little bigger than a walnut,
and thorns like a honeylocust. It has a lot of character. :-) I think
the pears would make good pickles.

Best regards,
Bob

This whole thread seems much ado about nothing. EVERY seedling apple tree
produces edible fruit - the problem is that most seedlings will produce
fruit that is too sour for most people's taste. A lot of sugar will turn
those apples into delicious apple pies, apple sauce, apple butter, or can be
mixed with other types of apples to make a great cider. There's a wild park
area in my town. There are quite a few seedling apple trees there. Russian
families go there in the fall and gather the fruit for something. (Homemade
vodka?) Having tasted a lot of those apples, I can tell you definitively,
they are not choice varieties......LOL Now, if most apple seedlings produced
poisonous fruit, with only a few select kinds being non-poisonous, that
would be a different situation entirely. However, if a person has a small
yard, a questionable apple tree seems a waste of space. Apples are not my
personal favorites as trees OR as fruit, but to each his own - and every
tree has beautiful fragrant flowers for 2 weeks or so in the spring, so that
counts as something.