Well, the *authority* I know has been in maples for a very long time
and knows how many maples made their way here from Japan. He also
personally knows several collectors in Japan who are also very
knowledgable about maples. Respectfully, on this matter at least, I'd
sooner trust his knowledge of this fact than your's.

How did you come by your info that maples can't be grown from
cuttings?? First hand?? Do you know *how* to propagate maples from
cuttings? Or, did you fail because you don't know how? Go to Mountain
Maples' website. You'll see there that they grow and sell both grafted
and *cutting* grown maples.

Last season I came very close to having a handful of cuttings root.
This year I'm planning on changing some things and we'll see if I can
do it...firsthand. I'll keep you posted.

Layne

On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 03:40:33 GMT, "Cereus-validus-..........."
wrote:

You have it on "good authority" but no first hand or even second hand
experience? That is little more than rumor and nothing more than hooey.

The reason Japanese maples are propagated by grafting is because cuttings
fail to root. Its just that simple.

Never said NONE of the maples can be propagated from cuttings, only that the
Acer palmatum cultivars cannot be propagated that way. Acer is a fairly
large genus and one should not generalize. The weedy Acer species are easily
propagated from cuttings. Don't be such a twit.

Hope you and your anonymous *authority* are very happy together. As far as
we know, you just made up the person.

When you tell someone to go a website, you should provide the link.


"Layne" wrote in message
...
Well, the *authority* I know has been in maples for a very long time
and knows how many maples made their way here from Japan. He also
personally knows several collectors in Japan who are also very
knowledgable about maples. Respectfully, on this matter at least, I'd
sooner trust his knowledge of this fact than your's.

How did you come by your info that maples can't be grown from
cuttings?? First hand?? Do you know *how* to propagate maples from
cuttings? Or, did you fail because you don't know how? Go to Mountain
Maples' website. You'll see there that they grow and sell both grafted
and *cutting* grown maples.

Last season I came very close to having a handful of cuttings root.
This year I'm planning on changing some things and we'll see if I can
do it...firsthand. I'll keep you posted.

Layne

On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 03:40:33 GMT, "Cereus-validus-..........."
wrote:

You have it on "good authority" but no first hand or even second hand
experience? That is little more than rumor and nothing more than hooey.

The reason Japanese maples are propagated by grafting is because cuttings
fail to root. Its just that simple.

You should have made the effort to find this yourself.

http://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/fo...ead.php?t=3147

The discussion explains the success in rooting cuttings of Acer palmatum
cultivars is extremely low (1 to 2 percent) and the plants grown that way
ultimately die within a year or so because of a very poorly developed root
system.

Further search will turn up other websites supporting the claim.


"Cereus-validus-..........." wrote in message
news
Never said NONE of the maples can be propagated from cuttings, only that
the Acer palmatum cultivars cannot be propagated that way. Acer is a
fairly large genus and one should not generalize. The weedy Acer species
are easily propagated from cuttings. Don't be such a twit.

Hope you and your anonymous *authority* are very happy together. As far as
we know, you just made up the person.

When you tell someone to go a website, you should provide the link.


"Layne" wrote in message
...
Well, the *authority* I know has been in maples for a very long time
and knows how many maples made their way here from Japan. He also
personally knows several collectors in Japan who are also very
knowledgable about maples. Respectfully, on this matter at least, I'd
sooner trust his knowledge of this fact than your's.

How did you come by your info that maples can't be grown from
cuttings?? First hand?? Do you know *how* to propagate maples from
cuttings? Or, did you fail because you don't know how? Go to Mountain
Maples' website. You'll see there that they grow and sell both grafted
and *cutting* grown maples.

Last season I came very close to having a handful of cuttings root.
This year I'm planning on changing some things and we'll see if I can
do it...firsthand. I'll keep you posted.

Layne

On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 03:40:33 GMT, "Cereus-validus-..........."
wrote:

You have it on "good authority" but no first hand or even second hand
experience? That is little more than rumor and nothing more than hooey.

The reason Japanese maples are propagated by grafting is because cuttings
fail to root. Its just that simple.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 11:21:56 GMT, "Cereus-validus-..........."
wrote:

Never said NONE of the maples can be propagated from cuttings, only that the
Acer palmatum cultivars cannot be propagated that way. Acer is a fairly
large genus and one should not generalize. The weedy Acer species are easily
propagated from cuttings. Don't be such a twit.

*I* am talking about Acer palmatum cultivars being propagated from
cuttings. Don't be such a ****.

Hope you and your anonymous *authority* are very happy together. As far as
we know, you just made up the person.

How are we to know that the information you came up with wasn't made
up either? Seriously, you can be so childish sometimes. You haven't
answered my question about whether your information was firsthand or
not. Have you even tried propagating Acer palmatums from cuttings
yourself? Do you know how?

When you tell someone to go a website, you should provide the link.

Well, I thought you were smart enough to use Google...but here you go:

www.mountainmaples.com

This is also taken from their website: "Most commercially available
maples are propagated by grafting or rooted cutting methods."

Cereus, I know you know a lot about plants. But, even experts don't
know everything and always learn a new thing or two. One of the things
I've learned early on about plants is that nothing is written in stone
and that rules don't always apply to all people and all plants in all
climates.

Respectfully,

Layne

On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 11:34:51 GMT, "Cereus-validus-..........."
wrote:

You should have made the effort to find this yourself.

http://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/fo...ead.php?t=3147

The discussion explains the success in rooting cuttings of Acer palmatum
cultivars is extremely low (1 to 2 percent) and the plants grown that way
ultimately die within a year or so because of a very poorly developed root
system.

Yes...and the person you quoted with the low 1% success rate is doing
it all wrong. I can tell you that right off the bat...right when
he/she wrote "coldframe". I read that post a while back. Did you read
FURTHER? Here's another quote from that same discussion:

"Second being those that believe cutting grown maples will have a
greater longevity and possibly more disease resistance vs. those
mainting the belief that cutting grown maples are inferior.

If one was to research, I believe that we would find the Japanese
propagated their maples very successfully through cuttings for many
generations, we have chosen to graft to preserve our intitial
specimens and for more immediate gratification.

Cuttings are far too labor intense for wholesale propagation and
likely too labor intensive for many moderate volume collectible
propagators."

This person I quoted is NOT the authority I was referring to earlier.
The reason my handful of cuttings didn't make it last season was
because of stupid stupid stupid mistake on MY part. There are many
variables that govern the success rate of rooted maple
cuttings...which I will not go into here.

Further search will turn up other websites supporting the claim.

If you really do your research you find Acer palmatum cultivars have
been grown from cuttings for a long time....again, you just have to
know how.

Regards,

Layne

"Cereus-validus-.." wrote in
message
news
Never said NONE of the maples can be propagated from cuttings,
only
that the Acer palmatum cultivars cannot be propagated that way.
Acer is a fairly large genus and one should not generalize. The
weedy Acer species are easily propagated from cuttings. Don't
be
such a twit.
Hope you and your anonymous *authority* are very happy
together. As
far as we know, you just made up the person.

When you tell someone to go a website, you should provide the
link.


"Layne" wrote in message
...
Well, the *authority* I know has been in maples for a very
long
time and knows how many maples made their way here from
Japan. He
also personally knows several collectors in Japan who are
also
very knowledgable about maples. Respectfully, on this matter
at
least, I'd sooner trust his knowledge of this fact than
your's.

How did you come by your info that maples can't be grown from
cuttings?? First hand?? Do you know *how* to propagate maples
from
cuttings? Or, did you fail because you don't know how? Go to
Mountain Maples' website. You'll see there that they grow and
sell both grafted and *cutting* grown maples.

Last season I came very close to having a handful of cuttings
root. This year I'm planning on changing some things and
we'll
see if I can do it...firsthand. I'll keep you posted.

Layne

On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 03:40:33 GMT,
"Cereus-validus-..........."
wrote:

You have it on "good authority" but no first hand or even
second hand experience? That is little more than rumor and
nothing more than hooey. The reason Japanese maples are
propagated by grafting is
because cuttings fail to root. Its just that simple.

http://www.mountainmaples.com/WS4D_C..._34/index.html

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
Sunset Zone 5

Actually, your link, if the discussion is followed through all the way to
the bottom, includes several participants who have successfully rooted acer
palmatum cuttings, Cereus.........which unfortunately, weakens the force of
your argument.
"Cereus-validus-..........." wrote in message
...
You should have made the effort to find this yourself.

http://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/fo...ead.php?t=3147

The discussion explains the success in rooting cuttings of Acer palmatum
cultivars is extremely low (1 to 2 percent) and the plants grown that way
ultimately die within a year or so because of a very poorly developed root
system.

Further search will turn up other websites supporting the claim.


"Cereus-validus-..........." wrote in
message news
Never said NONE of the maples can be propagated from cuttings, only that
the Acer palmatum cultivars cannot be propagated that way. Acer is a
fairly large genus and one should not generalize. The weedy Acer species
are easily propagated from cuttings. Don't be such a twit.

Hope you and your anonymous *authority* are very happy together. As far
as we know, you just made up the person.

When you tell someone to go a website, you should provide the link.


"Layne" wrote in message
...
Well, the *authority* I know has been in maples for a very long time
and knows how many maples made their way here from Japan. He also
personally knows several collectors in Japan who are also very
knowledgable about maples. Respectfully, on this matter at least, I'd
sooner trust his knowledge of this fact than your's.

How did you come by your info that maples can't be grown from
cuttings?? First hand?? Do you know *how* to propagate maples from
cuttings? Or, did you fail because you don't know how? Go to Mountain
Maples' website. You'll see there that they grow and sell both grafted
and *cutting* grown maples.

Last season I came very close to having a handful of cuttings root.
This year I'm planning on changing some things and we'll see if I can
do it...firsthand. I'll keep you posted.

Layne

On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 03:40:33 GMT, "Cereus-validus-..........."
wrote:

You have it on "good authority" but no first hand or even second hand
experience? That is little more than rumor and nothing more than hooey.

The reason Japanese maples are propagated by grafting is because
cuttings
fail to root. Its just that simple.

Thanks for the link.

http://www.mountainmaples.com/WS4D_C..._34/index.html

They say maples (in general) can be propagated by grafting, cuttings or
seed. Actually, many Acer species can be propagated from cuttings but not
all.

Their choice Japanese maple (Acer palmatum) cultivars are propagated
entirely by grafting never from cuttings.

Layne lied and merits no further consideration on this topic.


"Travis M." wrote in message
news:6IDrf.776$yx.331@trndny01...
"Cereus-validus-.." wrote in message
news
Never said NONE of the maples can be propagated from cuttings, only
that the Acer palmatum cultivars cannot be propagated that way.
Acer is a fairly large genus and one should not generalize. The
weedy Acer species are easily propagated from cuttings. Don't be
such a twit.
Hope you and your anonymous *authority* are very happy together. As
far as we know, you just made up the person.

When you tell someone to go a website, you should provide the link.


"Layne" wrote in message
...
Well, the *authority* I know has been in maples for a very long
time and knows how many maples made their way here from Japan. He
also personally knows several collectors in Japan who are also
very knowledgable about maples. Respectfully, on this matter at
least, I'd sooner trust his knowledge of this fact than your's.

How did you come by your info that maples can't be grown from
cuttings?? First hand?? Do you know *how* to propagate maples from
cuttings? Or, did you fail because you don't know how? Go to
Mountain Maples' website. You'll see there that they grow and
sell both grafted and *cutting* grown maples.

Last season I came very close to having a handful of cuttings
root. This year I'm planning on changing some things and we'll
see if I can do it...firsthand. I'll keep you posted.

Layne

On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 03:40:33 GMT, "Cereus-validus-..........."
wrote:

You have it on "good authority" but no first hand or even
second hand experience? That is little more than rumor and
nothing more than hooey. The reason Japanese maples are propagated by
grafting is
because cuttings fail to root. Its just that simple.

http://www.mountainmaples.com/WS4D_C..._34/index.html

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
Sunset Zone 5

They may have rooted them but the plants did not survive very long because
of the very poorly developed root system.

That hardly qualifies as successful propagation.

The bottom line is that trying to propagate Acer palmatum cultivars from
cuttings is a total waste of time.


"presley" wrote in message
...
Actually, your link, if the discussion is followed through all the way to
the bottom, includes several participants who have successfully rooted
acer palmatum cuttings, Cereus.........which unfortunately, weakens the
force of your argument.
"Cereus-validus-..........." wrote in
message ...
You should have made the effort to find this yourself.

http://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/fo...ead.php?t=3147

The discussion explains the success in rooting cuttings of Acer palmatum
cultivars is extremely low (1 to 2 percent) and the plants grown that way
ultimately die within a year or so because of a very poorly developed
root system.

Further search will turn up other websites supporting the claim.


"Cereus-validus-..........." wrote in
message news
Never said NONE of the maples can be propagated from cuttings, only that
the Acer palmatum cultivars cannot be propagated that way. Acer is a
fairly large genus and one should not generalize. The weedy Acer species
are easily propagated from cuttings. Don't be such a twit.

Hope you and your anonymous *authority* are very happy together. As far
as we know, you just made up the person.

When you tell someone to go a website, you should provide the link.


"Layne" wrote in message
...
Well, the *authority* I know has been in maples for a very long time
and knows how many maples made their way here from Japan. He also
personally knows several collectors in Japan who are also very
knowledgable about maples. Respectfully, on this matter at least, I'd
sooner trust his knowledge of this fact than your's.

How did you come by your info that maples can't be grown from
cuttings?? First hand?? Do you know *how* to propagate maples from
cuttings? Or, did you fail because you don't know how? Go to Mountain
Maples' website. You'll see there that they grow and sell both grafted
and *cutting* grown maples.

Last season I came very close to having a handful of cuttings root.
This year I'm planning on changing some things and we'll see if I can
do it...firsthand. I'll keep you posted.

Layne

On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 03:40:33 GMT, "Cereus-validus-..........."
wrote:

You have it on "good authority" but no first hand or even second hand
experience? That is little more than rumor and nothing more than hooey.

The reason Japanese maples are propagated by grafting is because
cuttings
fail to root. Its just that simple.

Cereus, you're just not reading your own link very carefully. I will quote
extensively below:

"Actually most of the non-commercial growers in
Japan are still growing Maples on their own roots.
Why, because the Maples will live longer than
grafted Maples will. That has proved out in Japan
as well as here in the US. To the plantman in Japan
the Maple becomes a sibling, no longer is a plant
per say. Just look how an Apple grower, most of
them being home gardeners nurtures one individual
Apple as if it is a long lost soul that has been recently
found. To them the Apple becomes a treasure and
there is honor in perpetuating the treasure and to do
that we do not incorporate a second genome into
the Maple by grafting it. The Maple no longer
becomes a pure sibling is how the traditionalist
people I knew and know in Japan will look at
things right or wrong.

We grafted most all of our Maples but we did do
cuttings as well. The Achilles heel of the Japanese
Maple has always been the feet, the understock.
People talk about Verticillium as if they know
what they are writing about only because a book
author, a pathologist or someone they trust told
them about the pathogen. What no one wants to
talk about is that there is a slow decline form
found in all Japanese Maples to an extent and
there is the quick decline form that is generally
only seen from grafted Maples. In the last couple
of years I've seen evidence of the old quick decline
form again and we will see it start out as a whitish
discoloration in the rootstock. Then the top will
wilt and quickly die on us, then shortly thereafter
the rootstock turns black in splotches and also dies.
Had that happen to me this year with 8 of the 16
Maples I purchased from an Oregon grower. We
never saw the quick decline form of Verticillium
in our grafted Maples at the nursery. I've never
seen the quick decline form of Verticillium in any
Maple on its own roots anywhere and I've been to
enough places to have seen a few of these things.
I fully agree that Maples on their own roots have
a pre-eminent place in the forefront among Maple
propagation.

I have a problem with the commercialization
gathered from information in this forum that
is being used away from this forum. Tell you
what, get some more posts in this forum under
your belt and then send me a private message
and we can talk about cutting grown rootstocks
then, how's that?

Jim

On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 00:32:45 -0800
"presley" wrote:

] Cereus, you're just not reading your own link very carefully. I will quote
] extensively below:
]
[snip]

Hello Greg,

It is often difficult to rely on pure internet sources, because there is
no face or reputation behind the post. I'm interested in what "Jim"
has to say, but I don't know how seriously to take him.

However I notice that the maple society posters in the thread do not
recommend growing from cuttings.

I quoted Vertrees earlier in this thread. (It might be noted that he
is the spiritual mentor of the folks at Mountain Maples, so I find
it surprising that they don't mostly follow his methods. I didn't
find any success rates for cuttings quoted on their site, but in
any event I expect they are able to provide environments like mist
that are far beyond the capabilities of the amateur.) Someone in
the cited thread quotes van Gelderen/de Jong, and I repeat it
he

"A significant disadvantage of propagation by cuttings
is that all the roots are clonal. A number of species and cultivars, including Acer palmatum, do not form vigorous trees on their own roots....Clonal plants on clonal roots
are far more susceptible [to Verticillium dahliae(wilt disease)] than those grafted on
species rootstock. In this author's opinion, commercial propagation of cultivars
of
A. palmatum by cuttings is to be avoided, although many growers have a different
view."

I don't know what other growers he is referring to, but I doubt many
are in Europe. (I buy maples from van Gelderen and can vouch for
the very fine quality and the passion of the family for maples. He
is widely acknowledged as the expert on Acer in the western
world, including of course palmatum, of which he has named many
cultivars.)

Another maple expert I have dealings with is James Harris of
Mallet Court Nursery. Mr. Harris sits on the management
committee of Hillier Gardens, is a fellow of the Linnean Society
and a member of the council of the International Dendrology
Society. He is among the foremost British maple experts
and Mallet Court is a leading propagator.

Harris says: "Grafting is often preferred to cuttings as the plants
grow away better and establish themselves more quickly. Also
it is not unknown for maples that are propagated by cuttings to
collapse and die after four or five years. It is not clear what causes
this phenomenon and, as far as I know, no research [as to the cause]
has been done so far."

This doesn't speak to the difficulty of growing from cuttings, but
that is amply documented also.

In the literature there is little room for doubt that growing
A. palmatum from cuttings is very difficult to do and may
have heartbreaking results somewhat later. Does that mean
it's impossible? No. Just not recommended. As I mentioned
before, if you're inclined to try, I'd be the first to wish you
the best of luck.

-E



--
Emery Davis
You can reply to ecom
by removing the well known companies

"Emery Davis" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 00:32:45 -0800

[snip]

In the literature there is little room for doubt that growing
A. palmatum from cuttings is very difficult to do and may
have heartbreaking results somewhat later. Does that mean
it's impossible? No. Just not recommended. As I mentioned
before, if you're inclined to try, I'd be the first to wish you
the best of luck.

Cereus say 'can not'. Discussion now 'should not'. Big difference. One
side, "impossible". Other side, "not advised".

Although Layne claims otherwise, their personal experience trying has always
been unsuccessful.

Those you believe are saying "not advised" are doing so on the basis of what
others have said.

The bottom line is that it just doesn't work and it is a waste of time and
materials trying. Two different pathways to the same conclusion, Larry. Not
a big difference at all.


"Lawrence Akutagawa" wrote in message
...

"Emery Davis" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 00:32:45 -0800

[snip]

In the literature there is little room for doubt that growing
A. palmatum from cuttings is very difficult to do and may
have heartbreaking results somewhat later. Does that mean
it's impossible? No. Just not recommended. As I mentioned
before, if you're inclined to try, I'd be the first to wish you
the best of luck.

Cereus say 'can not'. Discussion now 'should not'. Big difference. One
side, "impossible". Other side, "not advised".

"Cereus-validus-..........." wrote in message
. ..

The bottom line is that it just doesn't work and it is a waste of time and
materials trying.

OK, OK...you convince me. Tell you what - you no tell my three old layer
Japanese Red Maple, I not tell either. Deal?

Why most people say cutting grown maples don't do well on their own
roots vs. grafted maples is all nonsense. You just have to understand
the "why". You have to understand and know the care involved in
cutting grown Acer palmatums. I will not go into it here as Cereus
doesn't care to know the "why" and he doesn't deserve to understand
and know the care involved.

Regards,

Layne