"Karl Warner" wrote just a few minutes ago

One last question: Do you know if anyone even attempts to harvest and
market black walnuts?

Please forgive me. I should search before I ask. I am still learning to
use Google and found an answer to my question. -- Karl

"Karl Warner" wrote in message

"Tom J" wrote

to me, no other walnut compares. Comparable would be
hickory
nuts.

I agree with you, black walnuts are the best tasting of all
but
the hardest to shell out. I also agree that hickory nuts are
just
as good, but even harder to shell out. After eating these all
my
life, I just don't like the walnuts that come from the retail
store at all - like eating cardboard in comparison!! This
year
was a bumper crop of both black walnuts and hickory nuts in
North
Georgia.
Ahh, delightful... glad to hear that some still exist. It has
been
over 70 years since I wandered south of the Ohio River.
Apparently
not all your woodlots have been converted to asphalt or
soybeans. Do youngsters still go to school in the Fall with
brown stained
hands? Forgive me for running this off-thread. It is a lonely
Christmas morning and I am wallowing in nostalgia. One last
question: Do you know if anyone even attempts to harvest and
market black walnuts? -- Karl

Black walnuts are available in little bags at my local
supermarket.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
Sunset Zone 5

"Karl Warner" wrote in message
...

"Tom J" wrote

to me, no other walnut compares. Comparable would be hickory nuts.

I agree with you, black walnuts are the best tasting of all but the
hardest to shell out. I also agree that hickory nuts are just as
good, but even harder to shell out. After eating these all my life,
I just don't like the walnuts that come from the retail store at
all - like eating cardboard in comparison!! This year was a bumper
crop of both black walnuts and hickory nuts in North Georgia.

Ahh, delightful... glad to hear that some still exist. It has been
over 70 years since I wandered south of the Ohio River. Apparently
not all your woodlots have been converted to asphalt or soybeans.
Do youngsters still go to school in the Fall with brown stained
hands? Forgive me for running this off-thread. It is a lonely
Christmas morning and I am wallowing in nostalgia. One last
question: Do you know if anyone even attempts to harvest and market
black walnuts? -- Karl

I see shelled black walnuts in bags in some stores, so I know they are
being sold commercially. In some areas, black walnut trees are about
all that does grow, because they can take over by poisoning many other
plants.

It's been a long time since I was around country school kids, so I
don't know how many hull out and crack their own walnuts anymore. I
would guess that's done mostly by machine now.

For personal use, we still do our own walnuts, hickory nuts and
pecans.

Tom J

Well I'm still confused by your terminology. I took the following definition
of hybrid from a biology link:
hybrid
(Science: biology) An offspring of parents from different species or
sub-species.

An organism that is the offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or
stock; especially offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of
different varieties or breeds or species; "a mule is a cross between a horse
and a donkey".

Produced by crossbreeding.

Commercial varieties of walnuts are not hybrids, since they all come from
the same species. They are cultivars, or varieties - meaning, that some
chance-mutation with a better taste, longer shelf-life, or some other
distinguishing feature, showed up on a tree somewhere and was subsequently
propagated by grafting or some other technique. In some few cases, there
might be hybrids between sub-species - but I'm not sure that the Carpathian
walnuts are sufficiently different genetically from the persion walnuts to
merit sub-species title. If they were, some different cultivar might
originate by crossing by hand pollination Carpathian with Persian walnuts.
However, I doubt that has happened. Some species, like the walnut, have wide
climate adaptability, and over thousands of years, the best-adapted plants
have been more successful in surviving in any given climate. Therefore, it
makes sense that walnut trees and their seedlings that have survived for
2000 years in northern Europe would have more tolerance for cold than walnut
seedlings from trees in Iran. I'm really just nit-picking, because, for
practical purposes, people in the Northern half of the US must use
descendants of Carpathian walnuts if they want to get nuts, which I think we
both agree on.


"Stephen Henning" wrote in message
news
"presley" wrote:

Well there are some inaccuracies in your statements. Carpathian walnuts
are
the same species as English walnuts, just a hardier variety of the same
species found growing in Eastern Europe. Black Walnuts are great for
eating
and rich in oils - but have a very hard shell and outer hull - some
people
have found they do best by driving their cars over the outer hulls to
separate out the walnuts.

Most commercial walnuts are not species but hybrids. In California they
use 30 different hybrids of English Walnut (Juglan regina). In addition
to these commercial varieties, there are also different strains of
Juglan regina including the German, Italian or Carpathian which are
hardier and do well in colder climates. The original (English)
variation of the species planted in England came from Persia or Iran and
is much more tender. Hardier strains were collected from high in the
Carpathian Mountains, which extend from Slovakia and southern Poland
southeast through the Western Ukraine to northeast Romania.

The Persian/English strains will grow in the northeastern US where I
live but nut production is very poor or non existent. Harsh winters
leave a lot of dead branches. However, the Carpathian strains will do
quite well. They are usually grafted on English walnut or black walnut
rootstocks.

For a nice read on this visit:

http://www.songonline.ca/nuts/persian_walnut.htm

A parallel situation exists with Douglas Fir (Pseudotsuga menziesii)
Christmas trees which are grown from seed collected in many different
states at many different elevations from Canada to Texas and from sea
level to over 6,000 ft. They are all the same species, but they are
quite different. By knowing latitude and altitude of where the seed was
collected, you can predict where it will do well.

The taxonomic handling of such variation is often handled by forming
subspecies or groups. The difference is not enough to form different
species, but quite significant when looking for source material for
different areas.

--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman

"presley" wrote:

hybrid
(Science: biology) An offspring of parents from different species or
sub-species.
An organism that is the offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or
stock; especially offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of
different varieties or breeds or species; "a mule is a cross between a horse
and a donkey".

Species are not genetically monotonic. If they were they would be
clones. My genes aren't the same as yours but we are members of the same
species. The named varieties of walnuts grown commercially are clones
of either cultivars or hybrids.

Carpathian walnuts and Persian walnuts are genetically dissimilar plants
of the same species. They are different varieties. Tomorrow they may
be different species. Taxonomists are making such decisions every day.
When they are bred, whether they are different species or not, hybrids
are formed. The reason they are hybrids is that they will not come true
from seeds and must be vegetatively propagated.

Since a cultivar is a variety of a plant developed from a natural
species and maintained under cultivation. Hence when different
cultivars are crossed they are hybrids, and not cultivars. They are not
natural species. Not all hybrids are mules.

--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman

Karl Warner wrote:
"Tom J" wrote

to me, no other walnut compares. Comparable would be hickory nuts.

I agree with you, black walnuts are the best tasting of all but the
hardest to shell out. I also agree that hickory nuts are just as good, but
even harder to shell out. After eating these all my life, I just don't
like the walnuts that come from the retail store at all - like eating
cardboard in comparison!! This year was a bumper crop of both black
walnuts and hickory nuts in North Georgia.


Ahh, delightful... glad to hear that some still exist. It has been over 70
years since I wandered south of the Ohio River. Apparently not all your
woodlots have been converted to asphalt or soybeans. Do youngsters still go
to school in the Fall with brown stained hands? Forgive me for running this
off-thread. It is a lonely Christmas morning and I am wallowing in
nostalgia. One last question: Do you know if anyone even attempts to
harvest and market black walnuts? -- Karl

The farmer's market I sell at has one farmer who collects black walnuts and
shells them in front of the fireplace in the winter and then sells then
for $6
a pint in the summer. (I picked them up this year but will probably end
up giving them to the squirrels.)

Kate

I'm not disputing what you wrote, but the vast majority of tree cultivars
result from sport mutations saved and grafted, rather than from pollen
crossing.
"Stephen Henning" wrote in message
news
"presley" wrote:

hybrid
(Science: biology) An offspring of parents from different species or
sub-species.
An organism that is the offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or
stock; especially offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of
different varieties or breeds or species; "a mule is a cross between a
horse
and a donkey".

Species are not genetically monotonic. If they were they would be
clones. My genes aren't the same as yours but we are members of the same
species. The named varieties of walnuts grown commercially are clones
of either cultivars or hybrids.

Carpathian walnuts and Persian walnuts are genetically dissimilar plants
of the same species. They are different varieties. Tomorrow they may
be different species. Taxonomists are making such decisions every day.
When they are bred, whether they are different species or not, hybrids
are formed. The reason they are hybrids is that they will not come true
from seeds and must be vegetatively propagated.

Since a cultivar is a variety of a plant developed from a natural
species and maintained under cultivation. Hence when different
cultivars are crossed they are hybrids, and not cultivars. They are not
natural species. Not all hybrids are mules.

--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman

"presley" wrote:

I'm not disputing what you wrote, but the vast majority of tree cultivars
result from sport mutations saved and grafted, rather than from pollen
crossing.

Commercial English Walnut plants are proprietary, but some have been
described in the literature. For example:

Common English walnut hybrids = Juglans hindsii x Juglans regia

Paradox (disease resistant) = Northern California black (Juglans
hindsii) x English walnut hybrids (Juglans hindsii x Juglans regia)

In any case they use several varieties because best production is
achieved by cross-pollination.

By the way Butternut, also known as "white walnut" is the hardiest of
the walnuts, withstanding lows near -50° F ("warm" end of zone 2).

--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman