Hi all,



I am looking for a couple new foundation shrubs, and a few to go next to my
patio, and am hoping some of you can comment on the ones I am considering.
I'm not sure whether I've just been drawn in by the pretty catalog photos,
or whether these will actually be good plants for me. I'm in south-central
Wisconsin, zone 4, but the foundation area is full sun and supports zone 5
plants very successfully.



For the foundation (full sun), I am looking at Calycanthus Floridus and
Viburnun dentatum Blue Muffin. I am drawn to the scent of the Calycanthus,
and the berries of the Blue Muffin. I am a little concerned about the
Calycanthus, as I have read that it suckers easily (would it make a good
foundation shrub?) and needs moist soil. The foundation area itself is
rather dry most of the year, but a drainage depression runs about 2 1/2 feet
away from where it will be, and stays fairly moist. Will that be enough?



For the patio area, which is partially sunny, I am looking at Clethra
Hummingbird, Clethra Alnifolia Paniculata, and Spirea Japonica Shibori. I
prefer the Hummingbird to the Paniculata, but am not sure whether it is
hardy here? The patio area is on the north side of my house, and I am not
sure a zone 5 plant would be hardy enough there. The Spirea Japonica Shibori
is pretty in the photos, but I am afraid it would be a little, well, boring.



Thoughts? I'm open to other suggestions, too! Thanks in advance!

-Shelly

Jung's in central wisconsin has plants only hardy to zone 4 in their catalog. Ingrid

"Shelly" wrote:
I am looking for a couple new foundation shrubs, . I'm in south-central
Wisconsin, zone 4, but the foundation area is full sun and supports zone 5
plants very successfully.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote in message
...
Jung's in central wisconsin has plants only hardy to zone 4 in their
catalog. Ingrid

Thanks for the reply. I know Jung's very well...have one right down the
road, and have been very happy with the shrubs I have purchased there in the
past. I didn't see anything in the catalog this year that I wanted and
didn't already have . Any ideas on the shrubs I listed?

As for the zone, In my experience, where we live is a zone warmer than the
rest of central Wisconsin...in fact, my yard is about 2 weeks ahead of my
parent's garden in Milwaukee.

no sorry .. I only know generally about shrubs. for this you need my mother who
knows one clethra from another. I live 6 blocks from the lake and snuck in a kousa
dogwood which I absolutely adore .. a Kmart dogwood no less. . am getting a couple
more named varieties and bonsai them in the back yard... heh, heh. Ingrid

"Michelle Hartner" wrote:


wrote in message
...
Jung's in central wisconsin has plants only hardy to zone 4 in their
catalog. Ingrid

Thanks for the reply. I know Jung's very well...have one right down the
road, and have been very happy with the shrubs I have purchased there in the
past. I didn't see anything in the catalog this year that I wanted and
didn't already have . Any ideas on the shrubs I listed?

As for the zone, In my experience, where we live is a zone warmer than the
rest of central Wisconsin...in fact, my yard is about 2 weeks ahead of my
parent's garden in Milwaukee.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Thanks anyway, and enjoy the kousa. I know I've got one of those somewhere
in the back, if only I could find it under all this snow!

wrote in message
...
no sorry .. I only know generally about shrubs. for this you need my
mother who
knows one clethra from another. I live 6 blocks from the lake and snuck
in a kousa
dogwood which I absolutely adore .. a Kmart dogwood no less. . am
getting a couple
more named varieties and bonsai them in the back yard... heh, heh. Ingrid

"Michelle Hartner" wrote:


wrote in message
...
Jung's in central wisconsin has plants only hardy to zone 4 in their
catalog. Ingrid

Thanks for the reply. I know Jung's very well...have one right down the
road, and have been very happy with the shrubs I have purchased there in
the
past. I didn't see anything in the catalog this year that I wanted and
didn't already have . Any ideas on the shrubs I listed?

As for the zone, In my experience, where we live is a zone warmer than
the
rest of central Wisconsin...in fact, my yard is about 2 weeks ahead of my
parent's garden in Milwaukee.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Shelly wrote:

Hi all,

I am looking for a couple new foundation shrubs, and a few to go next to my
patio, and am hoping some of you can comment on the ones I am considering.
I'm not sure whether I've just been drawn in by the pretty catalog photos,
or whether these will actually be good plants for me. I'm in south-central
Wisconsin, zone 4, but the foundation area is full sun and supports zone 5
plants very successfully.

For the foundation (full sun), I am looking at Calycanthus Floridus and
Viburnun dentatum Blue Muffin. I am drawn to the scent of the Calycanthus,
and the berries of the Blue Muffin. I am a little concerned about the
Calycanthus, as I have read that it suckers easily (would it make a good
foundation shrub?) and needs moist soil. The foundation area itself is
rather dry most of the year, but a drainage depression runs about 2 1/2 feet
away from where it will be, and stays fairly moist. Will that be enough?

For the patio area, which is partially sunny, I am looking at Clethra
Hummingbird, Clethra Alnifolia Paniculata, and Spirea Japonica Shibori. I
prefer the Hummingbird to the Paniculata, but am not sure whether it is
hardy here? The patio area is on the north side of my house, and I am not
sure a zone 5 plant would be hardy enough there. The Spirea Japonica Shibori
is pretty in the photos, but I am afraid it would be a little, well, boring.

Thoughts? I'm open to other suggestions, too! Thanks in advance!

Rather than selecting plants based on catalog descriptions, you will probably
get better results from visiting local nurseries and seeing what plants they
offer for the conditions you describe. You should be assured of their winter
hardiness for your area as well as their appropriateness for the site and soil
conditions and you can see up close and personal what the shrubs will look like.

I am unfamiliar with your climate, but IME, neither calycanthus nor clethra will
be happy in the situations you describe and neither is particularly attractive
off season.. For year round appearance, at least a few (if not most) of your
foundation shrubs should be evergreen.

pam - gardengal

"Pam" wrote in message
...

I am unfamiliar with your climate, but IME, neither calycanthus nor
clethra will
be happy in the situations you describe and neither is particularly
attractive
off season.. For year round appearance, at least a few (if not most) of
your
foundation shrubs should be evergreen.

pam - gardengal


Oh, that was what I was afraid of wind deflating from sails. The other
foundation shrubs are mostly evergreens, and I love the look of deciduous
shrubs interspersed with evergreens in this application, so I do know I do
not want more evergreens... but it sounds like I should keep looking.
I do love my local garden center, but when I have asked for recommendations,
I find they recommend the same few shrubs that all of my neighbors have, and
I want something a bit different. I guess I'll have to make it more clear to
them that I am looking for something unique. Thanks, Pam!

you dont like bridal wreath? I got some dwarf ones from Jungs. they also got multi
color, sorta pink and white. my mother got cardinal flower and something looks like
dwarf willow sorta bluish but is actually in another group it doesnt look like.
there are also all kinds of forsythia. Ingrid

"Shelly" wrote:
Oh, that was what I was afraid of wind deflating from sails. The other
foundation shrubs are mostly evergreens, and I love the look of deciduous
shrubs interspersed with evergreens in this application, so I do know I do
not want more evergreens... but it sounds like I should keep looking.
I do love my local garden center, but when I have asked for recommendations,
I find they recommend the same few shrubs that all of my neighbors have, and
I want something a bit different. I guess I'll have to make it more clear to
them that I am looking for something unique. Thanks, Pam!




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

In article , Pam wrote:

For year round appearance, at least a few (if not most) of your
foundation shrubs should be evergreen.

pam - gardengal

I've not found this to be the essential approach. And while all my
gardens' examples don't necessarily apply to the querier's zone, here are
some deciduous examples that have proven to be eye-catchers in winter so
there's no sense of loss in any season: The contorted hazel stands at the
sunny opening of a shade corridor, about seven feet tall. It's pretty year
round, but it's STRONGEST time is winter, both for revealing the contorted
limbs & for the catkins. Across from it on the opposite side of the path
entering the corridor is an unchanging alpine fir, pretty much a defacto
dwarf at sea level at about eight feet but looking as though it's a
hundred years old. So one evergreen, one deciduous, separated by a path,
& they're the biggest things until one reaches the other end of the path.
The alpine fir is the more tasteful thing, but the contorted hazel is the
most exciting & active. This area is also not far from a three-trunked
Japanese maple on a humpy hill, with dwarf evergreen azaleas around it --
the deciduous tree being the primary foundation, supported by very short
evergreens. It's autumn color & its winter trunks-&-limbs make it a
dynamic shrub-sized foundation tree.

In a sunnier garden, the biggest items are a weeping green beech &amp a
short-&-wide weeping white birch, with mid-sized evergreen rhodies &
deciduous native shrubs & a half-wild old rose filling in. The two trees
are amazing in all seasons, the birch catkinned & dangly-twigged with
contorted white trunk very impactful in winter though hardly any taller
than the fence, & the beech revealing all its twists & bends & mottled
bark in winter -- as powerful foundation plants, winter leaflessness does
not weaken them in the least. The opposite side of that yard is a major
shade garden including Pulpit Hill, & the shade is mainly from two old
evergreens (western hemlock & a greatly underlimbed large old holly) -- so
one side of the yard's deciduous-dominated & the other side's
evergreen-dominated, & for physical beauty autumn & winter the deciduous
side has the greater impact, but the evergreen side blocks sight of the
street so that the whole of that yard always feels enclosed (plus the
evergreen side preserves shade for late-winter/early spring shade plants
-- the deciduous side by contrast is still opened up late winter/early
spring for sunniness to support early flowering bulbs). Even on this
evergreen-dominated side of the yard, however, it's actually a paperbark
maple that becomes the focal point not for size but because it is more
central to the yard & it's so interesting in all seasons. The vastly
bigger old holly tree, even when loaded with berries, just can't compete
for attention.

Then there are deciduous azaleas -- big ones are the best foundation
shrubs with spectacular seasonal interest (& for colder zones the northern
lights series should really be considered if sizeable specimen-worthy
sizes are available). Our White-throat azalea is huge, maybe six feet by
six feet, & it stands across the path from the Black Swan Beech (another
weeper). These are all-season focal points -- the color of the leaves for
both beech & azalea are awesome in autumn. In winter the twistings of the
beech & the azalea's stark upright budded limbs keep them impactful for
winter foundations; then for spring the releafing beech goes through such
interesting color-changes as the leaves slowly darken to nearly black, &
the azalea goes into full flower before leafing out. Watching these
changes is a daily wonder. Around the beech & azalea are numerous smaller
shrubs & vines that are for the most part evergreens, so in this case it's
the evergreens that are the support features rather than the anchors, &
there is plenty of greenness there even when the largeset things are
leafless.

One spot where I really thought the central shrubs should indeed be
evergreen strikes me as one of my few failures. Two dwarf cypresses & an
evergreen eunonymous stand in a corner framed in by two street sidewalks.
Fortunately an old Japanese maple keeps them from being TOO important, but
they do dominate that little corner, & they've never looked exactly right.
I've expended energy trying to "correct" the error by shifting attention
to newer additions, but those three evergreen shrubs have a changeless
appearance, hence a little dull. Instead of those three shrubs I should've
had one thing bigger, & probably it should've been deciduous or at least
flowering so there'd be at least one dramatic seasonal occurance.

One evergreen foundation shrub that worked out joyously is the Loder's
white rhody obtained a couple years ago at the R.S.F. sale, & for its
mounding elegance nothing could look better, as much luck as skill I put
it in the perfect spot for the greatest sense of presence & beauty. No way
a deciduous shrub could've been any better there. But this week I
installed nearby a deciduous Western Azalea, quite tall with old trunks
that burst into twigginess overhead. I haven't yet seen the impact it will
make in full leaf (let alone in full flower) but as well-aged & lichened
trunks & limbs & twigs it's already a maximum impact shrub; & in the past
it has always worked out well assuming that if a deciduous shrub is that
dramatic in winter, it certainly isn't going to be crummy the rest of the
year. So now the Western Azalea together with the Loder's white form a
foundation pair, for a length of the garden filled in with hardy fuchsias
& crane's-bills & sundry perennials & three much smaller shrubs (one of
those deciduous). I've actually come to regard a mix of deciduous &
evergreen to be the ideal, but lean toward the deciduous as most dramatic,
though they have to be selected with the winter appearance well in mind if
they're to be effective focuses at all times. Too much focus on evergreens
can make the garden static & passive (though evergreens that change color
in winter help alleviate that, or flowering broadleaf evergreens aren't so
changeless -- I often wish I had room for more winter-blooming evergreen
camelleas, but just don't have room for just everything). For autumn
color, & for unusual limbs & barks revealed in winter, an area almost
entirely of deciduous weepers is much more dramatic than an area mostly of
evergreens.

So for drama of changing physical impacts season by season, I'd put
well-chosen deciduous shrubs & small trees way ahead of evergreens on
average, but if one needs a year-round shade area, or to block a view of a
neighbor's yard or shut out the street, then additional factors require
the choices be evergreen. With the evergreen it is not necessary to give
such careful thought to what it'll be like in winter, but WITH thought the
deciduous choices are apt to be the most significant foundation shrubs &
little trees no matter the season.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

"Shelly" wrote:
Oh, that was what I was afraid of wind deflating from sails. The other
foundation shrubs are mostly evergreens, and I love the look of deciduous
shrubs interspersed with evergreens in this application, so I do know I do
not want more evergreens... but it sounds like I should keep looking.
I do love my local garden center, but when I have asked for recommendations,
I find they recommend the same few shrubs that all of my neighbors have, and
I want something a bit different. I guess I'll have to make it more clear to
them that I am looking for something unique. Thanks, Pam!


Have you sought out a native shrubs specialist in your area? I have quite
a big collection of flowering evergreen shrubs, but the impact has been
greatly improved by interspersing native deciduous shrubs. A few that I
have ought to do just as well in your zone (if memory serves me well for a
change, the following will work down to zone 4, not that I've ever
personally gardened where it gets that cold):
Snowberry:
http://www.paghat.com/snowberry.html
Mount Airy Fothergilla:
http://www.paghat.com/mountairy.html
Rosy Spirea (or a similar one I don't have but hope to eventually,
Douglas's Spirea):
http://www.paghat.com/spiraeadensiflora.html
Summersweet (Clethra):
http://www.paghat.com/summersweet.html
Flowering Currant:
http://www.paghat.com/ribeskingedward.html
Choke Berry Bush
http://www.paghat.com/chokeberry.html

If you can make a connection with a native plants nursery or specialist in
your own region, you'll be able to find out about availability of
spectacular native vacciniums & viburnums, which no fancy imports or
cultivars ever really exceed in beauty. Also, check out any number of
different varieties of elderberry shrubs or trees, species & cultivars.

Plus, the Elf's-Home Spirea seems to be a rare offering in my area but is
so intensely cold-hardy I bet it's better distributed in your garden
centers:
http://www.paghat.com/spiraea.html

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

Shelly wrote:

"Pam" wrote in message
...

I am unfamiliar with your climate, but IME, neither calycanthus nor
clethra will
be happy in the situations you describe and neither is particularly
attractive
off season.. For year round appearance, at least a few (if not most) of
your
foundation shrubs should be evergreen.

pam - gardengal


Oh, that was what I was afraid of wind deflating from sails. The other
foundation shrubs are mostly evergreens, and I love the look of deciduous
shrubs interspersed with evergreens in this application, so I do know I do
not want more evergreens... but it sounds like I should keep looking.
I do love my local garden center, but when I have asked for recommendations,
I find they recommend the same few shrubs that all of my neighbors have, and
I want something a bit different. I guess I'll have to make it more clear to
them that I am looking for something unique. Thanks, Pam!

Shelly, here is a short list of some full sun deciduous shrubs to consider:
Cotinus coggygria 'Royal Rurple' - purple leaved smokebush
Exochorda x macrantha 'The Bride' - pearl bush
Vaccinium corymbosum - blueberries (many are very ornamental, have great fall
color and are great eating, too!)
Any of the deciduous viburnums hardy to your zone - doublefile, sargentii, x
burkwoodii, opulus 'Compactum'
Any of the shrub dogwoods - Cornus sericea, alba or sanguinea. Many cultivars
have variegated foliage in addition to very colorful winter stems; also will
generate berries.
Hydrangea arborescens, grandiflora or quercifolia (these are hardy to at least
zone 5, perhaps 4 and will withstand considerable sun)
Aronia - chokeberry
Berberis thunbergii - Japanese barberry
Spiraea x bumalda cultivars, "'Limemound', 'Goldmound', 'Magic Carpet' or S.
prunifolia
Fothergilla gardenii - dwarf fothergilla

and if you have room (although you can find some dwarf varieties), lilac,
forsythia, mock orange (Philadelphus coronarius), wiegela. Some of these shrubs
are listed hardy to only zone 5, so some care in placement and proper mulching
in winter may be necessary. Check too for invasiveness - in some climates, a few
of these self-sow easily and can invade natural areas.

HTH!

pam - gardengal

wrote in message
...
you dont like bridal wreath? I got some dwarf ones from Jungs. they also
got multi
color, sorta pink and white. my mother got cardinal flower and something
looks like
dwarf willow sorta bluish but is actually in another group it doesnt look
like.
there are also all kinds of forsythia. Ingrid

Maybe I do need to look at their catalog again. And I know they have more
varieties at their garden center...

I don't know if you still have snow there by the lake, but we got about 6
inches in the storm the other day, and it has me obsessively pouring over
catalogs for anything fun for the garden.

"paghat" wrote in message
news
"Shelly" wrote:

Have you sought out a native shrubs specialist in your area? I have quite
a big collection of flowering evergreen shrubs, but the impact has been
greatly improved by interspersing native deciduous shrubs. /

You know I haven't, which is made that much worse by the fact that my sister
and her boyfriend are native plant specialists in the area, and would be
more than happy to help me. In fact, they will be helping me turn a
devil-of-a-hill in my back yard into a native oak opening this spring. Very
exciting, not just because it means I won't have to mow that gosh-darned
hill every weekend any more!

I guess I was just jumping the gun and trying to sneak in a few more
non-natives before they take over! You are right, though. A lot of
natives are lovely, and I shouldn't have discounted them so readily.

Thanks for the suggestions!

Thanks so much for the ideas, Pam!

yeah.. we had 6 inches here. it is melting fast, altho we are now in the inversion.
warmer at night but cooler during the day than 15 miles west. it snowed right on all
my snow drops and crocuses and the daffodils are in bud. the lilacs are swelling. I
think we are in for some warmer weather this next week. about TIME. Ingrid

"Shelly" wrote:


wrote in message
...
you dont like bridal wreath? I got some dwarf ones from Jungs. they also
got multi
color, sorta pink and white. my mother got cardinal flower and something
looks like
dwarf willow sorta bluish but is actually in another group it doesnt look
like.
there are also all kinds of forsythia. Ingrid

Maybe I do need to look at their catalog again. And I know they have more
varieties at their garden center...

I don't know if you still have snow there by the lake, but we got about 6
inches in the storm the other day, and it has me obsessively pouring over
catalogs for anything fun for the garden.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.