"Carl 1 Lucky Texan" wrote in message
m...
J.C. wrote:

"madgardener" wrote in message
...

J.C. wrote:

I start seeds in styrofoam cups. I do exclusively square foot gardening
and have several boxes going. I use the 32oz cups that I buy in bulk
from Sam's Club. I put about 1 inch of potting soil in the cup.

When it comes time to plant I just cut the bottom out of the cups and
plant the whole things. This leaves me the proper amount of empty cup to
do the watering called for in the Square Foot Gardening book.

Well, everything that happens, wilt, browning leaves, low yield, bugs,
disease etc., happens because I PLANT THE DANG CUPS, according to my
wife. She, and others, say this is a definate no-no. I disagree. What do
you say and why?




after reading everyone else's responses, I've come to the obvious
solutions. Styrofoam however cheap is wrong only because you're leaving
the cups around the young seedlings, and your thinking is probably as
protection against cut worms, but in this case, everyone whose response
is deffinate is dead on the money. Wilt is from lack of enough
nutrients, browning leaves are fungal which the styrofoam doesn't allow
the soil around the plants to breath, bugs attack distressed plants to
eliminate them. Only the stronger plants survive. Distressed plants send
out inaudible signals to the insects to "come and put me out of my misery
I'm not well!" And low yields are from cramped roots. Had that happen
myself with a trial growing of some plants from seeds that had the exact
same problems as yours.

So here's the simpler solution: Everyone has helped with alternatives.
You could use cheap paper cups that will break down if planted. (no wax
lined cup, it won't break down fast enough). Your best bet would be to
watch for Lowes or Home Deprived to have sales on their seed starting
stuff. The peat pots are great and with their over purchasing for Spring,
you can pick up everything more than half price at the leg end of Spring.
Or you can order bulk garden cheap starting seed stuff from Garden
Supply. Park Seeds is a bit pricey but you'd have quality stuff. Same
with Garden Supply. Or you could check out Gardens Alive! and price
their seed starting stuff. Or Lee Valley Tools is another wonderful,
reusable source for seed starting stuff.

Don't let this set back discourage you. Are you burying the whole cup
into the soil once you punch out the bottoms? If you are, that's a HUGE
part of your problem. Another source would be a co-op or old fashioned
hardware store that always has Spring seed stuff. I'm sure they'd have
stuff still on the shelves. But the best bargain if you're frugal is to
hit Lowes (I know about Lowes personally having worked there for a few
years) or Depot when they're at the end of their season and want to get
rid of the seed trays, six packs, 24 packs, expandable coins that expand
when you soak them in water and plant (you can bury them in the ground
and after I cut the sides a bit, the roots push past the little tiny peat
pot and attain impressive sizes).

Any pots you start that will break down in the soils for your square foot
gardens will have to be buried completely. Even the peat pots. Because
if you leave even a little bit sticking out of the ground, the moisture
will wick out faster.

I've done Square foot gardening for decades and it works wonderfully.
(it's also called intensive gardening). And one inch of soil isn't
enough for a 32 ounce cup! I'd go with alternatives. Cheap paper that
WILL break down once buried and bottomed out will work. Once the
seedlings are to size, you could cut slits into the sides to expedite
faster break down and allow the roots to escape, the cup would protect
against cut worms during the early growth periods. as for the
convenience of pouring a "specific amount of water on each plant" being
easier, consider the little micro climate you've made that caused all
sorts of wonderful homes for fungus, molds, disease and bound up roots
(low yields and unhealthy plants which draw bugs to off them quickly,
Nature is amazing).

Try these ideas and get back to us. Keep on Square foot gardening. I
still do. I grow tomato's and radishes and all manner of things in
containers on my deck only because I don't have enough ground on this
steep slope and too many trees to clear to provide a spot for a square
foot garden. I do have, however some self watering boxes a friend gave
me and I have now a spot I can clear out that will provide me over 7
hours of direct sunlight and next spring I'll have for the first time a
place for my veggie garden!! Woo hoo!! Good luck to you, keep us
posted.

madgardener up on the ridge, back in Fairy Holler, overlooking English
Mountain in Eastern Tennessee, zone 7, Sunset zone still intensive
gardening after almost 28 years....................


I'm not sure we are on the same page here. When I say Square Foot
Gardening, I'm talking about this: http://www.squarefootgardening.com/

If you are familiar with this method, as portrayed in the book, you will
recall that the method calls for making a "saucer" type impression in the
square and putting the plant right in the middle of that. Then, you water
each plant by pouring one cup of water into the impression either daily,
every other day or weekly, as the particular type of plant spec calls
for.

Now, we are talking about some 100 boxes here. Having an employee going
around with a bucket and a cup and making sure he gets everything watered
properly is a waste of time and money in my opinion. So, I decided to
experiment by using a 32 ounce cup, leaving enough of it empty so as to
hold the alloted amount of water so the fellow could just go around with
a wand and fill up the cups. We only tried this with 12 boxes and we had
a few problems and my wife blamed everythiing on planting those dang
cups.

I know styrofoam is not biodegradable so I know it does no harm to
anything in the box. I know that when we remove the plants to rejuvenate
a box for future plantings the roots are NOT rootbound or anything. I'm
pretty sure, as the boxes are filled with a plant medium mixture of 1/3
vermiculite, 1/3 well composted cow manure and other organic material,
and 1/3 spanghum peat moss, that there is ample aeration. So, what I am
trying to determine is whether or not the cups are detrimental or have I
just run into a run of fungus, disease or something.

For my two cents, I'd just soon take the started plants out of whatever
they are started in, and plant them directly into the square, but the
problem with that is, unless I'm following the guys around, they
inevitably overwater, washout or just plain wipe out a whole box.

By the way, anywhere near Jefferson City?



Fire those guys and put in some drip irrigation calibrated to water how
you desire.


Carl


Ahhh, you've never lived under the watchful eye of a south Texas rice belt
water district, have you?


--
J.C.

"J.C." wrote in message
m...

"madgardener" wrote in message
...
J.C. wrote:
I start seeds in styrofoam cups. I do exclusively square foot gardening
and have several boxes going. I use the 32oz cups that I buy in bulk
from Sam's Club. I put about 1 inch of potting soil in the cup.

When it comes time to plant I just cut the bottom out of the cups and
plant the whole things. This leaves me the proper amount of empty cup to
do the watering called for in the Square Foot Gardening book.

Well, everything that happens, wilt, browning leaves, low yield, bugs,
disease etc., happens because I PLANT THE DANG CUPS, according to my
wife. She, and others, say this is a definate no-no. I disagree. What do
you say and why?




after reading everyone else's responses, I've come to the obvious
solutions. Styrofoam however cheap is wrong only because you're leaving
the cups around the young seedlings, and your thinking is probably as
protection against cut worms, but in this case, everyone whose response
is deffinate is dead on the money. Wilt is from lack of enough
nutrients, browning leaves are fungal which the styrofoam doesn't allow
the soil around the plants to breath, bugs attack distressed plants to
eliminate them. Only the stronger plants survive. Distressed plants send
out inaudible signals to the insects to "come and put me out of my misery
I'm not well!" And low yields are from cramped roots. Had that happen
myself with a trial growing of some plants from seeds that had the exact
same problems as yours.

So here's the simpler solution: Everyone has helped with alternatives.
You could use cheap paper cups that will break down if planted. (no wax
lined cup, it won't break down fast enough). Your best bet would be to
watch for Lowes or Home Deprived to have sales on their seed starting
stuff. The peat pots are great and with their over purchasing for Spring,
you can pick up everything more than half price at the leg end of Spring.
Or you can order bulk garden cheap starting seed stuff from Garden
Supply. Park Seeds is a bit pricey but you'd have quality stuff. Same
with Garden Supply. Or you could check out Gardens Alive! and price
their seed starting stuff. Or Lee Valley Tools is another wonderful,
reusable source for seed starting stuff.

Don't let this set back discourage you. Are you burying the whole cup
into the soil once you punch out the bottoms? If you are, that's a HUGE
part of your problem. Another source would be a co-op or old fashioned
hardware store that always has Spring seed stuff. I'm sure they'd have
stuff still on the shelves. But the best bargain if you're frugal is to
hit Lowes (I know about Lowes personally having worked there for a few
years) or Depot when they're at the end of their season and want to get
rid of the seed trays, six packs, 24 packs, expandable coins that expand
when you soak them in water and plant (you can bury them in the ground
and after I cut the sides a bit, the roots push past the little tiny peat
pot and attain impressive sizes).

Any pots you start that will break down in the soils for your square foot
gardens will have to be buried completely. Even the peat pots. Because
if you leave even a little bit sticking out of the ground, the moisture
will wick out faster.

I've done Square foot gardening for decades and it works wonderfully.
(it's also called intensive gardening). And one inch of soil isn't
enough for a 32 ounce cup! I'd go with alternatives. Cheap paper that
WILL break down once buried and bottomed out will work. Once the
seedlings are to size, you could cut slits into the sides to expedite
faster break down and allow the roots to escape, the cup would protect
against cut worms during the early growth periods. as for the
convenience of pouring a "specific amount of water on each plant" being
easier, consider the little micro climate you've made that caused all
sorts of wonderful homes for fungus, molds, disease and bound up roots
(low yields and unhealthy plants which draw bugs to off them quickly,
Nature is amazing).

Try these ideas and get back to us. Keep on Square foot gardening. I
still do. I grow tomato's and radishes and all manner of things in
containers on my deck only because I don't have enough ground on this
steep slope and too many trees to clear to provide a spot for a square
foot garden. I do have, however some self watering boxes a friend gave
me and I have now a spot I can clear out that will provide me over 7
hours of direct sunlight and next spring I'll have for the first time a
place for my veggie garden!! Woo hoo!! Good luck to you, keep us
posted.

madgardener up on the ridge, back in Fairy Holler, overlooking English
Mountain in Eastern Tennessee, zone 7, Sunset zone still intensive
gardening after almost 28 years....................

I'm not sure we are on the same page here. When I say Square Foot
Gardening, I'm talking about this: http://www.squarefootgardening.com/

If you are familiar with this method, as portrayed in the book, you will
recall that the method calls for making a "saucer" type impression in the
square and putting the plant right in the middle of that. Then, you water
each plant by pouring one cup of water into the impression either daily,
every other day or weekly, as the particular type of plant spec calls for.

Now, we are talking about some 100 boxes here. Having an employee going
around with a bucket and a cup and making sure he gets everything watered
properly is a waste of time and money in my opinion. So, I decided to
experiment by using a 32 ounce cup, leaving enough of it empty so as to
hold the alloted amount of water so the fellow could just go around with a
wand and fill up the cups. We only tried this with 12 boxes and we had a
few problems and my wife blamed everythiing on planting those dang cups.

I know styrofoam is not biodegradable so I know it does no harm to
anything in the box. I know that when we remove the plants to rejuvenate a
box for future plantings the roots are NOT rootbound or anything. I'm
pretty sure, as the boxes are filled with a plant medium mixture of 1/3
vermiculite, 1/3 well composted cow manure and other organic material, and
1/3 spanghum peat moss, that there is ample aeration. So, what I am trying
to determine is whether or not the cups are detrimental or have I just run
into a run of fungus, disease or something.

For my two cents, I'd just soon take the started plants out of whatever
they are started in, and plant them directly into the square, but the
problem with that is, unless I'm following the guys around, they
inevitably overwater, washout or just plain wipe out a whole box.

By the way, anywhere near Jefferson City?


--
J.C.
Okay, since you seem loyal to your method, how's about conducting an
experiment next summer? Put half your plants out in the sort of plastic
cups you want to use, and put half out in peat pots. (Or one third in
plastic, one third in peat, one third without a cup of any sort.) Don't
clump each type together, in case there are variations in different areas of
the soil. Then compare the results and report back to the News Group.

helco

"helco" wrote in message
...

Okay, since you seem loyal to your method, how's about conducting an
experiment next summer? Put half your plants out in the sort of plastic
cups you want to use, and put half out in peat pots. (Or one third in
plastic, one third in peat, one third without a cup of any sort.) Don't
clump each type together, in case there are variations in different areas
of the soil. Then compare the results and report back to the News Group.

helco


Learning by experience? Are you insane? The web is the new god. Thou shalt
drool.

J.C. wrote:
"Carl 1 Lucky Texan" wrote in message
m...

J.C. wrote:


"madgardener" wrote in message
...


J.C. wrote:


I start seeds in styrofoam cups. I do exclusively square foot gardening
and have several boxes going. I use the 32oz cups that I buy in bulk

from Sam's Club. I put about 1 inch of potting soil in the cup.

When it comes time to plant I just cut the bottom out of the cups and
plant the whole things. This leaves me the proper amount of empty cup to
do the watering called for in the Square Foot Gardening book.

Well, everything that happens, wilt, browning leaves, low yield, bugs,
disease etc., happens because I PLANT THE DANG CUPS, according to my
wife. She, and others, say this is a definate no-no. I disagree. What do
you say and why?




after reading everyone else's responses, I've come to the obvious
solutions. Styrofoam however cheap is wrong only because you're leaving
the cups around the young seedlings, and your thinking is probably as
protection against cut worms, but in this case, everyone whose response
is deffinate is dead on the money. Wilt is from lack of enough
nutrients, browning leaves are fungal which the styrofoam doesn't allow
the soil around the plants to breath, bugs attack distressed plants to
eliminate them. Only the stronger plants survive. Distressed plants send
out inaudible signals to the insects to "come and put me out of my misery
I'm not well!" And low yields are from cramped roots. Had that happen
myself with a trial growing of some plants from seeds that had the exact
same problems as yours.

So here's the simpler solution: Everyone has helped with alternatives.
You could use cheap paper cups that will break down if planted. (no wax
lined cup, it won't break down fast enough). Your best bet would be to
watch for Lowes or Home Deprived to have sales on their seed starting
stuff. The peat pots are great and with their over purchasing for Spring,
you can pick up everything more than half price at the leg end of Spring.
Or you can order bulk garden cheap starting seed stuff from Garden
Supply. Park Seeds is a bit pricey but you'd have quality stuff. Same
with Garden Supply. Or you could check out Gardens Alive! and price
their seed starting stuff. Or Lee Valley Tools is another wonderful,
reusable source for seed starting stuff.

Don't let this set back discourage you. Are you burying the whole cup
into the soil once you punch out the bottoms? If you are, that's a HUGE
part of your problem. Another source would be a co-op or old fashioned
hardware store that always has Spring seed stuff. I'm sure they'd have
stuff still on the shelves. But the best bargain if you're frugal is to
hit Lowes (I know about Lowes personally having worked there for a few
years) or Depot when they're at the end of their season and want to get
rid of the seed trays, six packs, 24 packs, expandable coins that expand
when you soak them in water and plant (you can bury them in the ground
and after I cut the sides a bit, the roots push past the little tiny peat
pot and attain impressive sizes).

Any pots you start that will break down in the soils for your square foot
gardens will have to be buried completely. Even the peat pots. Because
if you leave even a little bit sticking out of the ground, the moisture
will wick out faster.

I've done Square foot gardening for decades and it works wonderfully.
(it's also called intensive gardening). And one inch of soil isn't
enough for a 32 ounce cup! I'd go with alternatives. Cheap paper that
WILL break down once buried and bottomed out will work. Once the
seedlings are to size, you could cut slits into the sides to expedite
faster break down and allow the roots to escape, the cup would protect
against cut worms during the early growth periods. as for the
convenience of pouring a "specific amount of water on each plant" being
easier, consider the little micro climate you've made that caused all
sorts of wonderful homes for fungus, molds, disease and bound up roots
(low yields and unhealthy plants which draw bugs to off them quickly,
Nature is amazing).

Try these ideas and get back to us. Keep on Square foot gardening. I
still do. I grow tomato's and radishes and all manner of things in
containers on my deck only because I don't have enough ground on this
steep slope and too many trees to clear to provide a spot for a square
foot garden. I do have, however some self watering boxes a friend gave
me and I have now a spot I can clear out that will provide me over 7
hours of direct sunlight and next spring I'll have for the first time a
place for my veggie garden!! Woo hoo!! Good luck to you, keep us
posted.

madgardener up on the ridge, back in Fairy Holler, overlooking English
Mountain in Eastern Tennessee, zone 7, Sunset zone still intensive
gardening after almost 28 years....................


I'm not sure we are on the same page here. When I say Square Foot
Gardening, I'm talking about this: http://www.squarefootgardening.com/

If you are familiar with this method, as portrayed in the book, you will
recall that the method calls for making a "saucer" type impression in the
square and putting the plant right in the middle of that. Then, you water
each plant by pouring one cup of water into the impression either daily,
every other day or weekly, as the particular type of plant spec calls
for.

Now, we are talking about some 100 boxes here. Having an employee going
around with a bucket and a cup and making sure he gets everything watered
properly is a waste of time and money in my opinion. So, I decided to
experiment by using a 32 ounce cup, leaving enough of it empty so as to
hold the alloted amount of water so the fellow could just go around with
a wand and fill up the cups. We only tried this with 12 boxes and we had
a few problems and my wife blamed everythiing on planting those dang
cups.

I know styrofoam is not biodegradable so I know it does no harm to
anything in the box. I know that when we remove the plants to rejuvenate
a box for future plantings the roots are NOT rootbound or anything. I'm
pretty sure, as the boxes are filled with a plant medium mixture of 1/3
vermiculite, 1/3 well composted cow manure and other organic material,
and 1/3 spanghum peat moss, that there is ample aeration. So, what I am
trying to determine is whether or not the cups are detrimental or have I
just run into a run of fungus, disease or something.

For my two cents, I'd just soon take the started plants out of whatever
they are started in, and plant them directly into the square, but the
problem with that is, unless I'm following the guys around, they
inevitably overwater, washout or just plain wipe out a whole box.

By the way, anywhere near Jefferson City?



Fire those guys and put in some drip irrigation calibrated to water how
you desire.


Carl



Ahhh, you've never lived under the watchful eye of a south Texas rice belt
water district, have you?



DANG!



Carl (watering by hand only 10am-6pm, as far as anyone can tell...)


--
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)

"J.C." wrote in message
m...

"Carl 1 Lucky Texan" wrote in message
m...
J.C. wrote:

"madgardener" wrote in message
...

J.C. wrote:

I start seeds in styrofoam cups. I do exclusively square foot gardening
and have several boxes going. I use the 32oz cups that I buy in bulk
from Sam's Club. I put about 1 inch of potting soil in the cup.

When it comes time to plant I just cut the bottom out of the cups and
plant the whole things. This leaves me the proper amount of empty cup
to do the watering called for in the Square Foot Gardening book.

Well, everything that happens, wilt, browning leaves, low yield, bugs,
disease etc., happens because I PLANT THE DANG CUPS, according to my
wife. She, and others, say this is a definate no-no. I disagree. What
do you say and why?




after reading everyone else's responses, I've come to the obvious
solutions. Styrofoam however cheap is wrong only because you're leaving
the cups around the young seedlings, and your thinking is probably as
protection against cut worms, but in this case, everyone whose response
is deffinate is dead on the money. Wilt is from lack of enough
nutrients, browning leaves are fungal which the styrofoam doesn't allow
the soil around the plants to breath, bugs attack distressed plants to
eliminate them. Only the stronger plants survive. Distressed plants
send out inaudible signals to the insects to "come and put me out of my
misery I'm not well!" And low yields are from cramped roots. Had that
happen myself with a trial growing of some plants from seeds that had
the exact same problems as yours.

So here's the simpler solution: Everyone has helped with alternatives.
You could use cheap paper cups that will break down if planted. (no wax
lined cup, it won't break down fast enough). Your best bet would be to
watch for Lowes or Home Deprived to have sales on their seed starting
stuff. The peat pots are great and with their over purchasing for
Spring, you can pick up everything more than half price at the leg end
of Spring. Or you can order bulk garden cheap starting seed stuff from
Garden Supply. Park Seeds is a bit pricey but you'd have quality stuff.
Same with Garden Supply. Or you could check out Gardens Alive! and
price their seed starting stuff. Or Lee Valley Tools is another
wonderful, reusable source for seed starting stuff.

Don't let this set back discourage you. Are you burying the whole cup
into the soil once you punch out the bottoms? If you are, that's a HUGE
part of your problem. Another source would be a co-op or old fashioned
hardware store that always has Spring seed stuff. I'm sure they'd have
stuff still on the shelves. But the best bargain if you're frugal is to
hit Lowes (I know about Lowes personally having worked there for a few
years) or Depot when they're at the end of their season and want to get
rid of the seed trays, six packs, 24 packs, expandable coins that expand
when you soak them in water and plant (you can bury them in the ground
and after I cut the sides a bit, the roots push past the little tiny
peat pot and attain impressive sizes).

Any pots you start that will break down in the soils for your square
foot gardens will have to be buried completely. Even the peat pots.
Because if you leave even a little bit sticking out of the ground, the
moisture will wick out faster.

I've done Square foot gardening for decades and it works wonderfully.
(it's also called intensive gardening). And one inch of soil isn't
enough for a 32 ounce cup! I'd go with alternatives. Cheap paper that
WILL break down once buried and bottomed out will work. Once the
seedlings are to size, you could cut slits into the sides to expedite
faster break down and allow the roots to escape, the cup would protect
against cut worms during the early growth periods. as for the
convenience of pouring a "specific amount of water on each plant" being
easier, consider the little micro climate you've made that caused all
sorts of wonderful homes for fungus, molds, disease and bound up roots
(low yields and unhealthy plants which draw bugs to off them quickly,
Nature is amazing).

Try these ideas and get back to us. Keep on Square foot gardening. I
still do. I grow tomato's and radishes and all manner of things in
containers on my deck only because I don't have enough ground on this
steep slope and too many trees to clear to provide a spot for a square
foot garden. I do have, however some self watering boxes a friend gave
me and I have now a spot I can clear out that will provide me over 7
hours of direct sunlight and next spring I'll have for the first time a
place for my veggie garden!! Woo hoo!! Good luck to you, keep us
posted.

madgardener up on the ridge, back in Fairy Holler, overlooking English
Mountain in Eastern Tennessee, zone 7, Sunset zone still intensive
gardening after almost 28 years....................


I'm not sure we are on the same page here. When I say Square Foot
Gardening, I'm talking about this: http://www.squarefootgardening.com/

If you are familiar with this method, as portrayed in the book, you will
recall that the method calls for making a "saucer" type impression in
the square and putting the plant right in the middle of that. Then, you
water each plant by pouring one cup of water into the impression either
daily, every other day or weekly, as the particular type of plant spec
calls for.

Now, we are talking about some 100 boxes here. Having an employee going
around with a bucket and a cup and making sure he gets everything
watered properly is a waste of time and money in my opinion. So, I
decided to experiment by using a 32 ounce cup, leaving enough of it
empty so as to hold the alloted amount of water so the fellow could just
go around with a wand and fill up the cups. We only tried this with 12
boxes and we had a few problems and my wife blamed everythiing on
planting those dang cups.

I know styrofoam is not biodegradable so I know it does no harm to
anything in the box. I know that when we remove the plants to rejuvenate
a box for future plantings the roots are NOT rootbound or anything. I'm
pretty sure, as the boxes are filled with a plant medium mixture of 1/3
vermiculite, 1/3 well composted cow manure and other organic material,
and 1/3 spanghum peat moss, that there is ample aeration. So, what I am
trying to determine is whether or not the cups are detrimental or have I
just run into a run of fungus, disease or something.

For my two cents, I'd just soon take the started plants out of whatever
they are started in, and plant them directly into the square, but the
problem with that is, unless I'm following the guys around, they
inevitably overwater, washout or just plain wipe out a whole box.

By the way, anywhere near Jefferson City?



Fire those guys and put in some drip irrigation calibrated to water how
you desire.


Carl


Ahhh, you've never lived under the watchful eye of a south Texas rice belt
water district, have you?

You still haven't explained who the people are who're doing the watering,
and why you haven't mulched to minimize runoff. Are these employees?

I'm not sure we are on the same page here. When I say Square Foot Gardening,
I'm talking about this: http://www.squarefootgardening.com/
yep, I've had that book now for well over a decade or more. Mel was the
one who got me started. They touted his ways of intensive gardening in
Rodale's Organic Gardening magazine years ago when it was worthy of
reading and learning.

If you are familiar with this method, as portrayed in the book, you will
recall that the method calls for making a "saucer" type impression in the
square and putting the plant right in the middle of that. Then, you water
each plant by pouring one cup of water into the impression either daily,
every other day or weekly, as the particular type of plant spec calls for.

well, I remember the depression, but as for a cup of water daily, every
other day or weekly, I've learned thru the decades that raised beds tend
to warm up earlier and start the season sooner than in the ground, but
they also drain faster and dry out quicker. So that cupa water isn't
gonna help when we don't get rain on a semi regular basis. ALL my
perennial gardens are raised beds and containers. During that dry spell
we had back in June, I had to water everything at least every evening,
and the next day I could plunge my hand into the soil and nothing would
stick. It took that wet period to soak the soils adequately enough to
pull the plants out of stress. You have to use rule of personal thumb
on what books tell you. I have a fig tree that is happier than pigs in
slop, and it hasn't read the book that says they aren't hardy to this
growing zone. Micro climates. And raised square foot gardening are
little individual micro climates sometimes.

Now, we are talking about some 100 boxes here. Having an employee going
around with a bucket and a cup and making sure he gets everything watered
properly is a waste of time and money in my opinion. So, I decided to
experiment by using a 32 ounce cup, leaving enough of it empty so as to hold
the alloted amount of water so the fellow could just go around with a wand
and fill up the cups. We only tried this with 12 boxes and we had a few
problems and my wife blamed everythiing on planting those dang cups.

well, maybe not understanding it was easy to point the blame. I will say
that styrofoam isn't the best thing for cups. And yes, having an
employee going around with a bucket and a cup IS a waste of time. You'd
do better to invest in a soaker hose (Lowes has the rolls of 50 foot
flat ones for cheap, and last year I lucked out and got 25 foot rolls of
them for 75% off! )

I know styrofoam is not biodegradable so I know it does no harm to anything
in the box. I know that when we remove the plants to rejuvenate a box for
future plantings the roots are NOT rootbound or anything. I'm pretty sure,
as the boxes are filled with a plant medium mixture of 1/3 vermiculite, 1/3
well composted cow manure and other organic material, and 1/3 sphagnum peat
moss, that there is ample aeration. So, what I am trying to determine is
whether or not the cups are detrimental or have I just run into a run of
fungus, disease or something.

Try this mixture instead.....instead of the sphagnum peat moss, which
tends to dry out quicker, grab up the neighbor's leaves off the curbs
and run your lawn mower over the piles until shredded and work that into
your beds. The leaves will break down into a perfect 6.5 Ph and the
plants will have humus. You could also gather lawn clippings and mix
those with the ground leaves. I've invested in a shredded and am
shredding up all the junk mail and catalogs from the 4000 plant
companies and nurseries (almost 99% of them have gone over to soy based
inks anyway, so the paper and inks are safe) and put the shredded paper
into my compost pile with my kitchen gunk. Once fall comes, I'll be
stealing bags of leaves from these mushroom subdivisions that are
springing up across 25-70 and take them off their hands. I don't care
if there's weed seeds or whatever in them (these are subdivisions built
on former pastures) because I also cow pie pick my neighbor's pasture
next to me for that moo gold.............

For my two cents, I'd just soon take the started plants out of whatever they
are started in, and plant them directly into the square, but the problem
with that is, unless I'm following the guys around, they inevitably
overwater, washout or just plain wipe out a whole box.
hmmmmmmmm, sounds like a little mulch would save you some time on the
over watering situation. An investment of a few bags of cypress mulch
would keep the moisture levels at a more even keel, and if you don't
want to go cypress, the cheaper stuff would work and break down into
more soil and humus! As for the washing out problem, the mulch might
help that. I still think a minor investment of a few soaker hoses would
help tremendously. I'm seriously thinking of getting a few and running
some multiple connections from my well head into the assorted boxes. The
only problem is that my boxes are all over the place all Helter
Skelter.........the only ones that would benefit from soakers would be
the long front of the house raised garden (the first one I put in), the
fig bed, and I suspect the fig has already learned about the well....the
box just across from the fig bed, the Vitex garden next to THAT, and
maybe if I could interconnect and run a long one to the raised "tomato"
boxes that Squire built me that now have perennials......the trees
listened to my wailings of no trees and now I have to do some judicious
pruning and whacking to open up the west fence line
again.....sigh...........

By the way, anywhere near Jefferson City?

14 miles. I live in Dandridge just offa Valley Home Road, turn on
Zirkle, go past that scary new subdivision that is built along I-40
where it crosses over Zirkle, turn left onto Wine and once you inhale at
the view of English Mountain and the rolling hills below you and take
the curve, shoot up the road directly in front of you instead of taking
the last curve going towards 25-70 and go up that dead end. Inhale
again and enjoy Miz Mary Wine's view of English Mountain that I borrow
every day, hook the left driveway and take the gentle curve past the
boulder sticking out towards the drive and go thru the iron gates past
the crape myrtles (white and watermelon) and all those flowers and
perennials obscuring the house almost past the gutters on the left is
the ol' madgardener's and yer in Fairy Holler proper! fire a warning
shot before you come and I'll make sure there's sweet iced tea chilling
in the fridge..............maybe you'll see something you want a piece
of....
maddie

Ahhh, you've never lived under the watchful eye of a south Texas rice belt
water district, have you?

by the way, J.C. when you respond, it might keep the local residents on
this neighborhood newsgroup from getting peeved at you posting the whole
responses each time you answer......no offense or harranging, just
delete or type snip and then pick up the answer where you want to. it
will save some flaming that I feel the heat coming from somewhere's! LOL
I know this from experience after 9 years and going strong on this
NG, there are those out there who will kvetch about you posting the
whole thing..LOL It don't bother me any, just trying to save your
temper and irritation when the complaints come (hopefully the OCD's are
asleep right now roflmao)
maddie

"helco" wrote in message
...

"J.C." wrote in message
m...

"madgardener" wrote in message
...
J.C. wrote:
I start seeds in styrofoam cups. I do exclusively square foot gardening
and have several boxes going. I use the 32oz cups that I buy in bulk
from Sam's Club. I put about 1 inch of potting soil in the cup.

When it comes time to plant I just cut the bottom out of the cups and
plant the whole things. This leaves me the proper amount of empty cup
to do the watering called for in the Square Foot Gardening book.

Well, everything that happens, wilt, browning leaves, low yield, bugs,
disease etc., happens because I PLANT THE DANG CUPS, according to my
wife. She, and others, say this is a definate no-no. I disagree. What
do you say and why?




after reading everyone else's responses, I've come to the obvious
solutions. Styrofoam however cheap is wrong only because you're leaving
the cups around the young seedlings, and your thinking is probably as
protection against cut worms, but in this case, everyone whose response
is deffinate is dead on the money. Wilt is from lack of enough
nutrients, browning leaves are fungal which the styrofoam doesn't allow
the soil around the plants to breath, bugs attack distressed plants to
eliminate them. Only the stronger plants survive. Distressed plants
send out inaudible signals to the insects to "come and put me out of my
misery I'm not well!" And low yields are from cramped roots. Had that
happen myself with a trial growing of some plants from seeds that had
the exact same problems as yours.

So here's the simpler solution: Everyone has helped with alternatives.
You could use cheap paper cups that will break down if planted. (no wax
lined cup, it won't break down fast enough). Your best bet would be to
watch for Lowes or Home Deprived to have sales on their seed starting
stuff. The peat pots are great and with their over purchasing for
Spring, you can pick up everything more than half price at the leg end
of Spring. Or you can order bulk garden cheap starting seed stuff from
Garden Supply. Park Seeds is a bit pricey but you'd have quality stuff.
Same with Garden Supply. Or you could check out Gardens Alive! and
price their seed starting stuff. Or Lee Valley Tools is another
wonderful, reusable source for seed starting stuff.

Don't let this set back discourage you. Are you burying the whole cup
into the soil once you punch out the bottoms? If you are, that's a HUGE
part of your problem. Another source would be a co-op or old fashioned
hardware store that always has Spring seed stuff. I'm sure they'd have
stuff still on the shelves. But the best bargain if you're frugal is to
hit Lowes (I know about Lowes personally having worked there for a few
years) or Depot when they're at the end of their season and want to get
rid of the seed trays, six packs, 24 packs, expandable coins that expand
when you soak them in water and plant (you can bury them in the ground
and after I cut the sides a bit, the roots push past the little tiny
peat pot and attain impressive sizes).

Any pots you start that will break down in the soils for your square
foot gardens will have to be buried completely. Even the peat pots.
Because if you leave even a little bit sticking out of the ground, the
moisture will wick out faster.

I've done Square foot gardening for decades and it works wonderfully.
(it's also called intensive gardening). And one inch of soil isn't
enough for a 32 ounce cup! I'd go with alternatives. Cheap paper that
WILL break down once buried and bottomed out will work. Once the
seedlings are to size, you could cut slits into the sides to expedite
faster break down and allow the roots to escape, the cup would protect
against cut worms during the early growth periods. as for the
convenience of pouring a "specific amount of water on each plant" being
easier, consider the little micro climate you've made that caused all
sorts of wonderful homes for fungus, molds, disease and bound up roots
(low yields and unhealthy plants which draw bugs to off them quickly,
Nature is amazing).

Try these ideas and get back to us. Keep on Square foot gardening. I
still do. I grow tomato's and radishes and all manner of things in
containers on my deck only because I don't have enough ground on this
steep slope and too many trees to clear to provide a spot for a square
foot garden. I do have, however some self watering boxes a friend gave
me and I have now a spot I can clear out that will provide me over 7
hours of direct sunlight and next spring I'll have for the first time a
place for my veggie garden!! Woo hoo!! Good luck to you, keep us
posted.

madgardener up on the ridge, back in Fairy Holler, overlooking English
Mountain in Eastern Tennessee, zone 7, Sunset zone still intensive
gardening after almost 28 years....................

I'm not sure we are on the same page here. When I say Square Foot
Gardening, I'm talking about this: http://www.squarefootgardening.com/

If you are familiar with this method, as portrayed in the book, you will
recall that the method calls for making a "saucer" type impression in the
square and putting the plant right in the middle of that. Then, you water
each plant by pouring one cup of water into the impression either daily,
every other day or weekly, as the particular type of plant spec calls
for.

Now, we are talking about some 100 boxes here. Having an employee going
around with a bucket and a cup and making sure he gets everything watered
properly is a waste of time and money in my opinion. So, I decided to
experiment by using a 32 ounce cup, leaving enough of it empty so as to
hold the alloted amount of water so the fellow could just go around with
a wand and fill up the cups. We only tried this with 12 boxes and we had
a few problems and my wife blamed everythiing on planting those dang
cups.

I know styrofoam is not biodegradable so I know it does no harm to
anything in the box. I know that when we remove the plants to rejuvenate
a box for future plantings the roots are NOT rootbound or anything. I'm
pretty sure, as the boxes are filled with a plant medium mixture of 1/3
vermiculite, 1/3 well composted cow manure and other organic material,
and 1/3 spanghum peat moss, that there is ample aeration. So, what I am
trying to determine is whether or not the cups are detrimental or have I
just run into a run of fungus, disease or something.

For my two cents, I'd just soon take the started plants out of whatever
they are started in, and plant them directly into the square, but the
problem with that is, unless I'm following the guys around, they
inevitably overwater, washout or just plain wipe out a whole box.

By the way, anywhere near Jefferson City?


--
J.C.
Okay, since you seem loyal to your method, how's about conducting an
experiment next summer? Put half your plants out in the sort of plastic
cups you want to use, and put half out in peat pots. (Or one third in
plastic, one third in peat, one third without a cup of any sort.) Don't
clump each type together, in case there are variations in different areas
of the soil. Then compare the results and report back to the News Group.

helco


We did that this year. That's why I'm asking others what experiences they
have?


--
J.C.

"madgardener" wrote in message
...

I'm not sure we are on the same page here. When I say Square Foot
Gardening, I'm talking about this: http://www.squarefootgardening.com/
yep, I've had that book now for well over a decade or more. Mel was the
one who got me started. They touted his ways of intensive gardening in
Rodale's Organic Gardening magazine years ago when it was worthy of
reading and learning.

If you are familiar with this method, as portrayed in the book, you will
recall that the method calls for making a "saucer" type impression in the
square and putting the plant right in the middle of that. Then, you water
each plant by pouring one cup of water into the impression either daily,
every other day or weekly, as the particular type of plant spec calls
for.

well, I remember the depression, but as for a cup of water daily, every
other day or weekly, I've learned thru the decades that raised beds tend
to warm up earlier and start the season sooner than in the ground, but
they also drain faster and dry out quicker. So that cupa water isn't
gonna help when we don't get rain on a semi regular basis. ALL my
perennial gardens are raised beds and containers. During that dry spell
we had back in June, I had to water everything at least every evening, and
the next day I could plunge my hand into the soil and nothing would stick.
It took that wet period to soak the soils adequately enough to pull the
plants out of stress. You have to use rule of personal thumb on what
books tell you. I have a fig tree that is happier than pigs in slop, and
it hasn't read the book that says they aren't hardy to this growing zone.
Micro climates. And raised square foot gardening are little individual
micro climates sometimes.

Now, we are talking about some 100 boxes here. Having an employee going
around with a bucket and a cup and making sure he gets everything watered
properly is a waste of time and money in my opinion. So, I decided to
experiment by using a 32 ounce cup, leaving enough of it empty so as to
hold the alloted amount of water so the fellow could just go around with
a wand and fill up the cups. We only tried this with 12 boxes and we had
a few problems and my wife blamed everythiing on planting those dang
cups.

well, maybe not understanding it was easy to point the blame. I will say
that styrofoam isn't the best thing for cups. And yes, having an employee
going around with a bucket and a cup IS a waste of time. You'd do better
to invest in a soaker hose (Lowes has the rolls of 50 foot flat ones for
cheap, and last year I lucked out and got 25 foot rolls of them for 75%
off! )

We've tried that. It didn't work very well so now we have them lined up in
the tree farm.


I know styrofoam is not biodegradable so I know it does no harm to
anything in the box. I know that when we remove the plants to rejuvenate
a box for future plantings the roots are NOT rootbound or anything. I'm
pretty sure, as the boxes are filled with a plant medium mixture of 1/3
vermiculite, 1/3 well composted cow manure and other organic material,
and 1/3 sphagnum peat moss, that there is ample aeration. So, what I am
trying to determine is whether or not the cups are detrimental or have I
just run into a run of fungus, disease or something.

Try this mixture instead.....instead of the sphagnum peat moss, which
tends to dry out quicker, grab up the neighbor's leaves off the curbs and
run your lawn mower over the piles until shredded and work that into your
beds. The leaves will break down into a perfect 6.5 Ph and the plants will
have humus. You could also gather lawn clippings and mix those with the
ground leaves. I've invested in a shredded and am shredding up all the
junk mail and catalogs from the 4000 plant companies and nurseries (almost
99% of them have gone over to soy based inks anyway, so the paper and inks
are safe) and put the shredded paper into my compost pile with my kitchen
gunk.

We do vermi composting. We have several bins of red wigglers working their
heads (both ends) off. And all the city dwelling kin folks bring their
leaves out to the farm in the fall in return for some pasture raised BBQ.

Once fall comes, I'll be
stealing bags of leaves from these mushroom subdivisions that are
springing up across 25-70 and take them off their hands. I don't care if
there's weed seeds or whatever in them (these are subdivisions built on
former pastures) because I also cow pie pick my neighbor's pasture next to
me for that moo gold.............

For my two cents, I'd just soon take the started plants out of whatever
they are started in, and plant them directly into the square, but the
problem with that is, unless I'm following the guys around, they
inevitably overwater, washout or just plain wipe out a whole box.


hmmmmmmmm, sounds like a little mulch would save you some time on the over
watering situation. An investment of a few bags of cypress mulch would
keep the moisture levels at a more even keel, and if you don't want to go
cypress, the cheaper stuff would work and break down into more soil and
humus! As for the washing out problem, the mulch might help that. I
still think a minor investment of a few soaker hoses would help
tremendously. I'm seriously thinking of getting a few and running some
multiple connections from my well head into the assorted boxes. The only
problem is that my boxes are all over the place all Helter
Skelter.........the only ones that would benefit from soakers would be the
long front of the house raised garden (the first one I put in), the fig
bed, and I suspect the fig has already learned about the well....the box
just across from the fig bed, the Vitex garden next to THAT, and maybe if
I could interconnect and run a long one to the raised "tomato" boxes that
Squire built me that now have perennials......the trees listened to my
wailings of no trees and now I have to do some judicious pruning and
whacking to open up the west fence line again.....sigh...........

I believe you will find that the soaker hoses wind up doing more watering
outside the boxes than in. The shortest we have been able to find is 25' and
winding that around a 4X4 box is pretty cumbersome and if you let it run
from one box to the next, you wind up with a flooded path to walk on.



By the way, anywhere near Jefferson City?

14 miles. I live in Dandridge just offa Valley Home Road, turn on Zirkle,
go past that scary new subdivision that is built along I-40 where it
crosses over Zirkle, turn left onto Wine and once you inhale at the view
of English Mountain and the rolling hills below you and take the curve,
shoot up the road directly in front of you instead of taking the last
curve going towards 25-70 and go up that dead end. Inhale again and enjoy
Miz Mary Wine's view of English Mountain that I borrow every day, hook the
left driveway and take the gentle curve past the boulder sticking out
towards the drive and go thru the iron gates past the crape myrtles (white
and watermelon) and all those flowers and perennials obscuring the house
almost past the gutters on the left is the ol' madgardener's and yer in
Fairy Holler proper! fire a warning shot before you come and I'll make
sure there's sweet iced tea chilling in the fridge..............maybe
you'll see something you want a piece of....
maddie

We are hoping to come up and visit my old Peshawar, Pakistan room mate, Don
Barbee, sometime next year. We were spies back in the 1960s. He's in the
goat business http://www.mountainviewboers.com/

Anyhow, I think I've got a handle on this cup deal. Catch ya later. We'll
holler when we get up that way.


--
J.C.

"madgardener" wrote in message
...


Ahhh, you've never lived under the watchful eye of a south Texas rice
belt water district, have you?

by the way, J.C. when you respond, it might keep the local residents on
this neighborhood newsgroup from getting peeved at you posting the whole
responses each time you answer

Will keep that in mind.

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 00:58:59 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"helco" wrote in message
...

Okay, since you seem loyal to your method, how's about conducting an
experiment next summer? Put half your plants out in the sort of plastic
cups you want to use, and put half out in peat pots. (Or one third in
plastic, one third in peat, one third without a cup of any sort.) Don't
clump each type together, in case there are variations in different areas
of the soil. Then compare the results and report back to the News Group.

helco


Learning by experience? Are you insane? The web is the new god. Thou shalt
drool.


What is your problem? If you have nothing constructive to say, why
say it? My mission is to only make positive thoughts and words. I
sometimes fail, but I'm not intentionally snide and sarcastic.

"Jangchub" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 00:58:59 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"helco" wrote in message
...

Okay, since you seem loyal to your method, how's about conducting an
experiment next summer? Put half your plants out in the sort of plastic
cups you want to use, and put half out in peat pots. (Or one third in
plastic, one third in peat, one third without a cup of any sort.) Don't
clump each type together, in case there are variations in different
areas
of the soil. Then compare the results and report back to the News
Group.

helco


Learning by experience? Are you insane? The web is the new god. Thou shalt
drool.


What is your problem? If you have nothing constructive to say, why
say it? My mission is to only make positive thoughts and words. I
sometimes fail, but I'm not intentionally snide and sarcastic.

If the OP had read even just one or two of the most basic gardening books
(which should come before graduating to square foot gardening, a method
which, by the way, I have a lot of respect for), he would have the answers
to his questions. The step in his education would be your suggestion: Learn
by doing.

Instead, what we're seeing here is an example of how some people never
learned to learn.

"Jangchub" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 00:58:59 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"helco" wrote in message
...

Okay, since you seem loyal to your method, how's about conducting an
experiment next summer? Put half your plants out in the sort of plastic
cups you want to use, and put half out in peat pots. (Or one third in
plastic, one third in peat, one third without a cup of any sort.) Don't
clump each type together, in case there are variations in different
areas
of the soil. Then compare the results and report back to the News
Group.

helco


Learning by experience? Are you insane? The web is the new god. Thou shalt
drool.


What is your problem? If you have nothing constructive to say, why
say it? My mission is to only make positive thoughts and words. I
sometimes fail, but I'm not intentionally snide and sarcastic.

I've killfiled the fellow so his antagonism and arrogance does me no harm.


--
J.C.

"J.C." wrote in message
news

I've killfiled the fellow so his antagonism and arrogance does me no harm.
J.C.

I don't like to hear about my mistakes, either, but I still step up to the
fire.

"J.C." wrote in message
...

I start seeds in styrofoam cups. I do exclusively square foot
gardening and have several boxes going. I use the 32oz cups that I buy
in bulk from Sam's Club. I put about 1 inch of potting soil in the
cup.

When it comes time to plant I just cut the bottom out of the cups and
plant the whole things. This leaves me the proper amount of empty cup
to do the watering called for in the Square Foot Gardening book.

Well, everything that happens, wilt, browning leaves, low yield, bugs,
disease etc., happens because I PLANT THE DANG CUPS, according to my
wife. She, and others, say this is a definate no-no. I disagree. What
do you say and why?

Snipped much discussion of problems with styrofoam cups, cups in general,
various other solutions ...

J.C. wrote:
If you are familiar with this method, as portrayed in the book, you will
recall that the method calls for making a "saucer" type impression in
the square and putting the plant right in the middle of that. Then, you
water each plant by pouring one cup of water into the impression either
daily, every other day or weekly, as the particular type of plant spec
calls for.

Now, we are talking about some 100 boxes here. Having an employee going
around with a bucket and a cup and making sure he gets everything
watered properly is a waste of time and money in my opinion. So, I
decided to experiment by using a 32 ounce cup, leaving enough of it
empty so as to hold the alloted amount of water so the fellow could just
go around with a wand and fill up the cups. We only tried this with 12
boxes and we had a few problems and my wife blamed everythiing on
planting those dang cups.

I know styrofoam is not biodegradable so I know it does no harm to
anything in the box. I know that when we remove the plants to rejuvenate
a box for future plantings the roots are NOT rootbound or anything. I'm
pretty sure, as the boxes are filled with a plant medium mixture of 1/3
vermiculite, 1/3 well composted cow manure and other organic material,
and 1/3 spanghum peat moss, that there is ample aeration. So, what I am
trying to determine is whether or not the cups are detrimental or have I
just run into a run of fungus, disease or something.

For my two cents, I'd just soon take the started plants out of whatever
they are started in, and plant them directly into the square, but the
problem with that is, unless I'm following the guys around, they
inevitably overwater, washout or just plain wipe out a whole box.
--
J.C.

helco wrote:
Okay, since you seem loyal to your method, how's about conducting an
experiment next summer? Put half your plants out in the sort of plastic
cups you want to use, and put half out in peat pots. (Or one third in
plastic, one third in peat, one third without a cup of any sort.) Don't
clump each type together, in case there are variations in different areas
of the soil. Then compare the results and report back to the News Group.

helco

J.C. wrote:
We did that this year. That's why I'm asking others what experiences they
have?
J.C.

So if you conducted that experiment this year, what were the results? If
your wife suggests that any damage that occurs is due to the cups, does that
mean that only the plants in the cups suffered the damage? If that's the
case, there's your answer. If plants suffered equally no matter how they
were planted, then there's a different answer.
helco