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Old 12-06-2007, 05:08 PM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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Default Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative

In article ,
wrote:

electrical plugs just put off the problem. somebody somewhere gotta
burn something to make the electricity.


True, but then you can use bio-mass and your not burning fossil fuel.
Additionally, you have the option of scrubbing the smoke stack to
sequester the CO2 and reduce the over all amount in the atmosphere.

if they are making hydrogen from water, fine, if it is nuclear less than ideal.


About as far as you can get from ideal, IMHO. In 30 - 40 years, fusion
reactors should be viable with lots of safe, clean energy. Why mess up
the planet for a 40 year fix, when it creates more problems than it
solves?

platinum is typically used to catalyze the splitting of water, used
with an electrical current in an ionic but not necessarily acidic
environment.


The April '07 issue of Scientific American addresses the issue of
hydrogen storage. The choices are (1) compressed hyrdogen, (2) liquid
hydrogen (Ever see the demonstration where they dip a rose into liquid
helium? Same kinda deal) (3) reversible "hydrogen metal hydrides" (they
generate H+ in response to heat and a catalyst and, they need to be
removed to recharge) and (4) "hydrogen adsorbents" that work like
sponges (don't need to be removed to recharge but research just
beginning).

Unfortunately, the full article isn't available on line without a
subscription but you could find it at the library and, the graphics are
very helpful in helping understand the problems involved.

Ingrid

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:35:35 -0700, Billy Rose


- Billy
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)
wrote:
Even more practical would be the electric plug in vehicle.

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Old 12-06-2007, 08:57 PM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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Default Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative

Hmmm .... My 2 cents.

My thinking goes likes this.

I like my modern technological life. I like my computers, cars, lights,
HBO and modern medical techniques. I refuse to live in a cave. Street
maybe, if I keep spending the way I am

Solar and wind energy together is too expensive for the small amount of
electricity one receives. In order to get large amounts of energy one
has to destroy something to get it: be it coal, nuclear, Fusion is just
a dream a false hope, wood or any other agricultural source. If one (ok
the world) uses agricultural sources, bread will be twenty dollars a
loaf, greater starvation among the populated world.

Coal, CO2 scrubbers still leaves toxic waste in our land fills.
Hydrogen, needs electricity to extract from water. Bio-mass -
Agicultural, kiss all forest good-by, not just the rain forest.

If .... If and only if they can make them safe and put its waste in
outer space, are the breeder nuclear reactors. "The old saying - Is
anything safe? NO".

The only way to have a clean, healthy earth for everyone on this planet,
IS POPULATION REDUCTION. ie: make bombs not babies (ok, ok, forget the
reverse pun of the sixty's vietnam) just stop breeding like humans.

However, not sure of the future. My next truck will have an E85 engine.
I have read some where that all one has to do is combine 85 gallons of
ethanal with 15 gallons of regular gas. Buy a still, I have the 10 acres
of land to raise corn and have 6 acres of woods (energy source for the
still).

Its all about me, let the world starve. Conservation is a lost cause
without population reduction. I am single with no kids. With no social
life one has the time to do the things listed above.

So I agree with the original poster:
Home Gardening "is" Becoming Even More Imperative.

Enjoy Life ......... Dan.

In article
,
Billy Rose wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

electrical plugs just put off the problem. somebody somewhere gotta
burn something to make the electricity.


True, but then you can use bio-mass and your not burning fossil fuel.
Additionally, you have the option of scrubbing the smoke stack to
sequester the CO2 and reduce the over all amount in the atmosphere.

if they are making hydrogen from water, fine, if it is nuclear less than
ideal.


About as far as you can get from ideal, IMHO. In 30 - 40 years, fusion
reactors should be viable with lots of safe, clean energy. Why mess up
the planet for a 40 year fix, when it creates more problems than it
solves?

platinum is typically used to catalyze the splitting of water, used
with an electrical current in an ionic but not necessarily acidic
environment.


The April '07 issue of Scientific American addresses the issue of
hydrogen storage. The choices are (1) compressed hyrdogen, (2) liquid
hydrogen (Ever see the demonstration where they dip a rose into liquid
helium? Same kinda deal) (3) reversible "hydrogen metal hydrides" (they
generate H+ in response to heat and a catalyst and, they need to be
removed to recharge) and (4) "hydrogen adsorbents" that work like
sponges (don't need to be removed to recharge but research just
beginning).

Unfortunately, the full article isn't available on line without a
subscription but you could find it at the library and, the graphics are
very helpful in helping understand the problems involved.

Ingrid

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:35:35 -0700, Billy Rose


- Billy
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)
wrote:
Even more practical would be the electric plug in vehicle.


--
Email "dan lehr at comcast dot net". Text only or goes to trash automatically.
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Old 12-06-2007, 10:41 PM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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Default Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative

In article
,
"Dan L." wrote:

Hmmm .... My 2 cents.

Uh, nice string of pronouncements Dan. Usually it is nice if you can
give them a little authority, names, places, logic based on an
acceptable premise. You know, something like that would have been nice,
instead of coming down the mountain with your clay tablets. (Yeah, I
know, sarcastic, people have told me that.

My thinking goes likes this.

I like my modern technological life. I like my computers, cars, lights,
HBO and modern medical techniques. I refuse to live in a cave. Street
maybe, if I keep spending the way I am

Keep your technology but Americans presently use 25% of the worlds
energy. That will change. We can look forward to a diminished way of
life. Sorry Dave. (Jeeze, I sound like Hal, the computer) The
alternative is to send out the troops with bayonets fixed and subjugate
the world. Since we are not alone in the nuclear club, some of those
suckers may not want to go down easily. How do you feel about trying to
swim in the non-radioactive end of the pool?

Solar and wind energy together is too expensive for the small amount of
electricity one receives. In order to get large amounts of energy one
has to destroy something to get it: be it coal, nuclear, Fusion is just
a dream a false hope, wood or any other agricultural source. If one (ok
the world) uses agricultural sources, bread will be twenty dollars a
loaf, greater starvation among the populated world.


Presently, wind, photovoltaic, and hydro power (including tides) is too
little and more expensive than fossil fuel (if you don't count the
social impact of global warming i.e. our extinction). Someone must have
forgotten to tell the international consortium that is constructing a
fusion reactor in France that Dave said it couldn't be done. Scrubbing
smoke stacks with water and calcium hydroxide Ca(OH)2 gives you calcium
carbonate and water. Chalk, Dave, chalk doesn't sound so polluting, does
it?

We are already over producing food (look at you waistline) and
demographics say that the population of the planet should drop to
replacement levels by 2050. Western Europe has been encouraging it's
citizens to have more babies because the indigenous populations are
declining. Pretty much the same deal for all industrialized nations.

Coal, CO2 scrubbers still leaves toxic waste in our land fills.
Hydrogen, needs electricity to extract from water. Bio-mass -
Agicultural, kiss all forest good-by, not just the rain forest.

There is even a new nut being introduced into Africa as a crop that
grows well on dry marginally useful agricultural land that is 40% oil.
We can keep our forests. Need to plant more actually. Maybe you will
have to do without quite so much beef. That's all.

If .... If and only if they can make them safe and put its waste in
outer space, are the breeder nuclear reactors. "The old saying - Is
anything safe? NO".

Great way to live, with the sword of Damocles hanging over our heads.
Thanks, but no. Fission can be buffed, tweaked, and polished but it is
just too freaking dangerous. That argument aside, how are you going to
transfer the energy down, by microwaves and fry migratory birds?

The only way to have a clean, healthy earth for everyone on this planet,
IS POPULATION REDUCTION. ie: make bombs not babies (ok, ok, forget the
reverse pun of the sixty's vietnam) just stop breeding like humans.

See above. Large families only make sense in in subsistence farming.

However, not sure of the future. My next truck will have an E85 engine.
I have read some where that all one has to do is combine 85 gallons of
ethanal with 15 gallons of regular gas. Buy a still, I have the 10 acres
of land to raise corn and have 6 acres of woods (energy source for the
still).

You haven't been reading this new group long, have you? Corn is grown
with natural gas and petroleum. It is not efficient unless you are an
oil company but not for consumers.

Its all about me, let the world starve. Conservation is a lost cause
without population reduction. I am single with no kids. With no social
life one has the time to do the things listed above.

A Cassandra in the wilderness, wandering in a hopeless quest, fade to
black, the lights come up and everybody stands and goes home. Quite a
martyr syndrome you have there Dave.

You really need to lighten up there Dave. Ya know. Girls really like
guys that can make them laugh.

So I agree with the original poster:
Home Gardening "is" Becoming Even More Imperative.

Enjoy Life ......... Dan.

I will. Thanks Dave. You really should read a book about this stuff some
day. Life is a tight rope, but it's doable.


In article
,
Billy Rose wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

electrical plugs just put off the problem. somebody somewhere gotta
burn something to make the electricity.


True, but then you can use bio-mass and your not burning fossil fuel.
Additionally, you have the option of scrubbing the smoke stack to
sequester the CO2 and reduce the over all amount in the atmosphere.

if they are making hydrogen from water, fine, if it is nuclear less than
ideal.


About as far as you can get from ideal, IMHO. In 30 - 40 years, fusion
reactors should be viable with lots of safe, clean energy. Why mess up
the planet for a 40 year fix, when it creates more problems than it
solves?

platinum is typically used to catalyze the splitting of water, used
with an electrical current in an ionic but not necessarily acidic
environment.


The April '07 issue of Scientific American addresses the issue of
hydrogen storage. The choices are (1) compressed hyrdogen, (2) liquid
hydrogen (Ever see the demonstration where they dip a rose into liquid
helium? Same kinda deal) (3) reversible "hydrogen metal hydrides" (they
generate H+ in response to heat and a catalyst and, they need to be
removed to recharge) and (4) "hydrogen adsorbents" that work like
sponges (don't need to be removed to recharge but research just
beginning).

Unfortunately, the full article isn't available on line without a
subscription but you could find it at the library and, the graphics are
very helpful in helping understand the problems involved.

Ingrid

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:35:35 -0700, Billy Rose


- Billy
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:01 PM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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Default Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative

On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:08:18 -0700, Billy Rose
wrote:



About as far as you can get from ideal, IMHO. In 30 - 40 years, fusion
reactors should be viable with lots of safe, clean energy. Why mess up
the planet for a 40 year fix, when it creates more problems than it
solves?


A quick question. Is there a possibility of using waste from nuclear
plants as fuel for fusion plants?
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:43 PM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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Default Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative

In article ,
Pan Ohco wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:08:18 -0700, Billy Rose
wrote:



About as far as you can get from ideal, IMHO. In 30 - 40 years, fusion
reactors should be viable with lots of safe, clean energy. Why mess up
the planet for a 40 year fix, when it creates more problems than it
solves?


A quick question. Is there a possibility of using waste from nuclear
plants as fuel for fusion plants?


No. Fusion uses deuterium (an isotope of hydrogen). Two deuterium under
extremely high pressure and heat to fuse together to become a molecule
of helium. Two deuterium atoms have more mass than a single helium atom
and according to the famous equation, E=m(CxC), the difference in mass
is converted to energy. If the magnetic containment field for a fusion
reactor were to collapse, the reactants would hit the wall of the
containment building, cool, and become harmless. I believe there is some
issue with tritium (another isotope of hydrogen) but it is of a minor
concern when compared to fission reactions.

- Billy
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)


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Old 13-06-2007, 01:59 AM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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Default Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative

In article
,
Billy Rose wrote:

Two deuterium under
extremely high pressure and heat to fuse together to become a molecule
of helium.


Ahem,
that should have read as, "Two deuterium under extremely high pressure
and heat to fuse together to become an ATOM of helium."

OK, everybody back to sleep.

- Billy
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)
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Old 13-06-2007, 02:11 AM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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Default Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative

In article
,
"Dan L." wrote:

The only way to have a clean, healthy earth for everyone on this planet,
IS POPULATION REDUCTION. ie: make bombs not babies (ok, ok, forget the
reverse pun of the sixty's vietnam) just stop breeding like humans.


That was punny. :-)

And I agree that overpopulation is a serious problem, but China's answer
was not the one.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson
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Old 13-06-2007, 02:13 AM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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Default Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative

In article
,
Billy Rose wrote:

Presently, wind, photovoltaic, and hydro power (including tides) is too
little and more expensive than fossil fuel (if you don't count the
social impact of global warming i.e. our extinction). Someone must have
forgotten to tell the international consortium that is constructing a
fusion reactor in France that Dave said it couldn't be done. Scrubbing
smoke stacks with water and calcium hydroxide Ca(OH)2 gives you calcium
carbonate and water. Chalk, Dave, chalk doesn't sound so polluting, does
it?


I vote we try for geothermal.
Why can't we harvest volcanos? :-)

Hydroelectric building dams is not a bad idea either, but there goes the
environmental impact again...

Let's outlaw incandescent lightbulbs while we are at it!
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson
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Old 13-06-2007, 02:15 AM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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Default Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative

In article ,
Pan Ohco wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:08:18 -0700, Billy Rose
wrote:



About as far as you can get from ideal, IMHO. In 30 - 40 years, fusion
reactors should be viable with lots of safe, clean energy. Why mess up
the planet for a 40 year fix, when it creates more problems than it
solves?


A quick question. Is there a possibility of using waste from nuclear
plants as fuel for fusion plants?


That stuff supposedly makes great batteries. :-)
Long lasting too.

Or so I've heard...

What is powering the Voyager probes?

They've been transmitting how many years now?
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson
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Old 13-06-2007, 02:16 AM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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Default Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative

In article
,
Billy Rose wrote:

In article ,
Pan Ohco wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:08:18 -0700, Billy Rose
wrote:



About as far as you can get from ideal, IMHO. In 30 - 40 years, fusion
reactors should be viable with lots of safe, clean energy. Why mess up
the planet for a 40 year fix, when it creates more problems than it
solves?


A quick question. Is there a possibility of using waste from nuclear
plants as fuel for fusion plants?


No. Fusion uses deuterium (an isotope of hydrogen). Two deuterium under
extremely high pressure and heat to fuse together to become a molecule
of helium. Two deuterium atoms have more mass than a single helium atom
and according to the famous equation, E=m(CxC), the difference in mass
is converted to energy. If the magnetic containment field for a fusion
reactor were to collapse, the reactants would hit the wall of the
containment building, cool, and become harmless. I believe there is some
issue with tritium (another isotope of hydrogen) but it is of a minor
concern when compared to fission reactions.

- Billy
Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)


Anyone see Spiderman 2?
Do we really want to be creating miniature suns in our atmosphere? :-)

Nevermind... that was fiction and a poor attempt at humor...
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson


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Old 13-06-2007, 08:10 AM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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Default Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative

On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:57:49 -0400, "Dan L."
wrote:

[...]

Bio-mass -
Agicultural, kiss all forest good-by, not just the rain forest.


[...]

Whoa, podner. Why drag the rain forest into this discussion.
It has enough problems already!

Industrial hemp might be the answer.

My credentials: Your correspondent hasn't smoked a joint since the
60's-that-were-really-the-70's. I have no illusions that growing
hemp would turn everybody on; in fact what you'd have to go through to
get high on industrial hemp doesn't bear examining g.

Doesn't it seem a teeny bit self-serving of candidates and the
un-informed media to keep plugging corn-as-fuel with all the downsides
repeatedly enumerated even in the pop media,*

I'm not just talking about relatively low mileage; what about jacking
up the price for cultures whose basic food comes from corn.

* (not the most serious of which is that I can't find corn oil which
I've used for cooking since forever...)

This non-examination of industrial hemp as a source for automotive
fuel is 1000% based on the enthusiastic propaganda of Big Oil,
pandering to Bush's religious-nut "base", as well as to the general
ignorance of Joe/Jane Beercan, who don't differentiate between
marijuana and its industrial big sister, which has been used since
pre-Biblical times for everything from cloth to oil. It grows on any
kind of ground; requires almost no attention; is self-renewing.;
doesn't drive up the price of a basic food like corn by diverting
part of the crop to the Quixotic search for alternative fuel.

Read up on this. There are many titles out there on the subject (full
disclosu one of which I edited) which paint a dismaying picture of
how Big Oil/Auto and Puritanical racists many decades ago managed to
push through legislation confabulating industrial hemp with marijuana.

Persephone
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Old 13-06-2007, 11:37 AM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
Ann Ann is offline
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Default Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative

Persephone expounded:

This non-examination of industrial hemp as a source for automotive
fuel is 1000% based on the enthusiastic propaganda of Big Oil,
pandering to Bush's religious-nut "base", as well as to the general
ignorance of Joe/Jane Beercan, who don't differentiate between
marijuana and its industrial big sister, which has been used since
pre-Biblical times for everything from cloth to oil. It grows on any
kind of ground; requires almost no attention; is self-renewing.;
doesn't drive up the price of a basic food like corn by diverting
part of the crop to the Quixotic search for alternative fuel.


Doesn't sound like there's much money it it - therein lies the rub.

We can't have that, now, ya hear? ;-
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************
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Default Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative

In article , Persephone
wrote:

Industrial hemp might be the answer.

My credentials: Your correspondent hasn't smoked a joint since the
60's-that-were-really-the-70's. I have no illusions that growing
hemp would turn everybody on; in fact what you'd have to go through to
get high on industrial hemp doesn't bear examining g.


Not many people know that Industrial Hemp is NOT the same thing as
recreational pot. Nowhere near. Anyone that has bothered to do the
research would know that.

It has a million and one uses. 1 acre of IH supposedly creates the same
amount of usable cellulose as 10 acres of forest. It is good for fabric,
paper, fuel and oil, as well as a food source from the seeds.

You can thank Dupont for being one of the major players in getting it
outlawed.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson
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Old 13-06-2007, 01:38 PM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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Default Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative

In article ,
Ann wrote:

Persephone expounded:

This non-examination of industrial hemp as a source for automotive
fuel is 1000% based on the enthusiastic propaganda of Big Oil,
pandering to Bush's religious-nut "base", as well as to the general
ignorance of Joe/Jane Beercan, who don't differentiate between
marijuana and its industrial big sister, which has been used since
pre-Biblical times for everything from cloth to oil. It grows on any
kind of ground; requires almost no attention; is self-renewing.;
doesn't drive up the price of a basic food like corn by diverting
part of the crop to the Quixotic search for alternative fuel.


Doesn't sound like there's much money it it - therein lies the rub.

We can't have that, now, ya hear? ;-


snicker Another realist I see. ;-)
Well put.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson
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Old 13-06-2007, 02:41 PM posted to rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible
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Default Home Gardening Becomes Even More Imperative

In article ,
Omelet wrote:

In article , Persephone
wrote:

Industrial hemp might be the answer.

My credentials: Your correspondent hasn't smoked a joint since the
60's-that-were-really-the-70's. I have no illusions that growing
hemp would turn everybody on; in fact what you'd have to go through to
get high on industrial hemp doesn't bear examining g.


Not many people know that Industrial Hemp is NOT the same thing as
recreational pot. Nowhere near. Anyone that has bothered to do the
research would know that.

It has a million and one uses. 1 acre of IH supposedly creates the same
amount of usable cellulose as 10 acres of forest. It is good for fabric,
paper, fuel and oil, as well as a food source from the seeds.

You can thank Dupont for being one of the major players in getting it
outlawed.


I remember seeing a TV program that discussed living treasures of
Japan. One woman was revered for her Hemp cloth. Seems not only
durable and comfortable but was beautiful without dyes.

Bill

--

S Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade
http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid
This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.
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