I have a crapapple tree that has shown some interesting behavior the
past couple years. Here's some history.

It's a fairly large tree, and when I got the house it was very lush. I
should have had it pruned then, as it turns out. In about 2000, a major
section split off from the main trunk and fell over. I had the whole
tree pruned and reshaped at the time, which reduced its size
considerably.

I was concerned over the following years that it might die, but it's
rallied and looks pretty good.

Now the odd part. Starting last year, one branch of the tree has
started to blossom in the fall. The last of them just fell off, so
figure around mid-September. This year's have set some fruit. I don't
know if the same branch blossomed in the spring when the rest of the
tree did, and as we had a spring freeze here I can't tell by looking
for mature fruit as they were all killed.

Has anyone heard of such a thing? To the best of my recollection, only
these two most recent years have shown this. The branch is close to the
driveway, so it's very noticable.




Brian

--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)

"Default User" wrote in message
...

I have a crapapple tree that has shown some interesting behavior the
past couple years. Here's some history.

It's a fairly large tree, and when I got the house it was very lush. I
should have had it pruned then, as it turns out. In about 2000, a major
section split off from the main trunk and fell over. I had the whole
tree pruned and reshaped at the time, which reduced its size
considerably.

I was concerned over the following years that it might die, but it's
rallied and looks pretty good.

Now the odd part. Starting last year, one branch of the tree has
started to blossom in the fall. The last of them just fell off, so
figure around mid-September. This year's have set some fruit. I don't
know if the same branch blossomed in the spring when the rest of the
tree did, and as we had a spring freeze here I can't tell by looking
for mature fruit as they were all killed.

Has anyone heard of such a thing? To the best of my recollection, only
these two most recent years have shown this. The branch is close to the
driveway, so it's very noticable.


Someone may have grafted apples of a different variety on to the
crabapple tree. That used to be a big fad a number of years ago
and you can still buy trees online that have different branches of different
apples. Crabapple trees were a favorite to use for this since many
of them (particularly ones that aren't created purely as ornamental
trees) in the good old days were not grafted trees.

These days most ornamental crabapples are grafted and virtually
all production apple trees are grafted. But there's a movement out
there against grafted apple trees and some growers are selling
non-grafted ones.

Ted

On Oct 5, 8:54 pm, "Default User" wrote:
I have a crapapple tree that has shown some interesting behavior the
past couple years. Here's some history.

It's a fairly large tree, and when I got the house it was very lush. I
should have had it pruned then, as it turns out. In about 2000, a major
section split off from the main trunk and fell over. I had the whole
tree pruned and reshaped at the time, which reduced its size
considerably.

I was concerned over the following years that it might die, but it's
rallied and looks pretty good.

Now the odd part. Starting last year, one branch of the tree has
started to blossom in the fall. The last of them just fell off, so
figure around mid-September. This year's have set some fruit. I don't
know if the same branch blossomed in the spring when the rest of the
tree did, and as we had a spring freeze here I can't tell by looking
for mature fruit as they were all killed.

Has anyone heard of such a thing? To the best of my recollection, only
these two most recent years have shown this. The branch is close to the
driveway, so it's very noticable.

Sounds like a stress reaction from hard pruning. Temporary.

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:


"Default User" wrote in message
...

Now the odd part. Starting last year, one branch of the tree has
started to blossom in the fall.

Someone may have grafted apples of a different variety on to the
crabapple tree. That used to be a big fad a number of years ago
and you can still buy trees online that have different branches of
different apples.

I don't think so. If it were off on the other side of the tree by the
neighbor's, then perhaps. But this is right by the driveway. The sight
of one branch in blossom against the leaves is quite noticable, I'd had
to not notice it for a number of years. It's possible.

Are there crabapples that bloom in the fall, on fully-leafed branches.



Brian

--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)

Father Haskell wrote:

On Oct 5, 8:54 pm, "Default User" wrote:
I have a crapapple tree that has shown some interesting behavior the
past couple years. Here's some history.

Now the odd part. Starting last year, one branch of the tree has
started to blossom in the fall.

Sounds like a stress reaction from hard pruning. Temporary.

That was kind of my thought, but the pruning was six years before it
started this (as best I recall).



Brian

--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

"Default User" wrote in message
...

I have a crapapple tree that has shown some interesting behavior the
past couple years. Here's some history.

It's a fairly large tree, and when I got the house it was very lush. I
should have had it pruned then, as it turns out. In about 2000, a major
section split off from the main trunk and fell over. I had the whole
tree pruned and reshaped at the time, which reduced its size
considerably.

I was concerned over the following years that it might die, but it's
rallied and looks pretty good.

Now the odd part. Starting last year, one branch of the tree has
started to blossom in the fall. The last of them just fell off, so
figure around mid-September. This year's have set some fruit. I don't
know if the same branch blossomed in the spring when the rest of the
tree did, and as we had a spring freeze here I can't tell by looking
for mature fruit as they were all killed.

Has anyone heard of such a thing? To the best of my recollection, only
these two most recent years have shown this. The branch is close to the
driveway, so it's very noticable.


Someone may have grafted apples of a different variety on to the
crabapple tree. That used to be a big fad a number of years ago
and you can still buy trees online that have different branches of different
apples. Crabapple trees were a favorite to use for this since many
of them (particularly ones that aren't created purely as ornamental
trees) in the good old days were not grafted trees.

These days most ornamental crabapples are grafted and virtually
all production apple trees are grafted. But there's a movement out
there against grafted apple trees and some growers are selling
non-grafted ones.

Ted

I don't know what kind of movement you are referring to. Grafting is still
the only reliable way to reproduce apple trees. These ungrafted trees are
limited to a very few apples, like Antonovka, but this variety is used more
as a rootstock than an eating apple. Non-grafted trees take longer to
produce
fruit and eventually get too big to be managed properly.

Sherwin D.

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...


Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

"Default User" wrote in message
...

I have a crapapple tree that has shown some interesting behavior the
past couple years. Here's some history.

It's a fairly large tree, and when I got the house it was very lush. I
should have had it pruned then, as it turns out. In about 2000, a
major
section split off from the main trunk and fell over. I had the whole
tree pruned and reshaped at the time, which reduced its size
considerably.

I was concerned over the following years that it might die, but it's
rallied and looks pretty good.

Now the odd part. Starting last year, one branch of the tree has
started to blossom in the fall. The last of them just fell off, so
figure around mid-September. This year's have set some fruit. I don't
know if the same branch blossomed in the spring when the rest of the
tree did, and as we had a spring freeze here I can't tell by looking
for mature fruit as they were all killed.

Has anyone heard of such a thing? To the best of my recollection, only
these two most recent years have shown this. The branch is close to
the
driveway, so it's very noticable.


Someone may have grafted apples of a different variety on to the
crabapple tree. That used to be a big fad a number of years ago
and you can still buy trees online that have different branches of
different
apples. Crabapple trees were a favorite to use for this since many
of them (particularly ones that aren't created purely as ornamental
trees) in the good old days were not grafted trees.

These days most ornamental crabapples are grafted and virtually
all production apple trees are grafted. But there's a movement out
there against grafted apple trees and some growers are selling
non-grafted ones.

Ted

I don't know what kind of movement you are referring to. Grafting is
still
the only reliable way to reproduce apple trees.

No, sorry this isn't true. In actual fact there are two "non-grafted"
movements
on growing apple trees (and other fruit trees) The first is called
"own-root"
and the second is traditional "from-seed"

I don't know exactly where "own-root" started from but one of the
centers of it is in the UK - here's a URL for you:

http://www.cooltemperate.co.uk/own_root.shtml

http://www.orangepippin.com/own-roots.aspx

but Googling on the phrase will get you hundreds of hits. Unlike seed, and
like grafting, this is a clone technique. Propagation is the usual method
of
putting a cutting in potting soil, with rooting hormone on the cutting,
keeping it
wet and in indirect light. The biggest problem with it is that for a lot of
work your getting the same apple tree you could get by buying one of
the mass-produced grafted-to-regular rootstock trees from a nursery,
there's just not a lot of incentive for it.

As for from-seed growth, Google on "Apple tree from seed" and you
will get hundreds of hits. A lot of people have started apple trees from
seed and gotten good apples from them.

To make it simple for you:

http://www.usapple.org/consumers/kids/grown.cfm

"...every apple seed can potentially produce a new variety. This is in part
why more than 7,500 apple varieties have been identified worldwide..."

So please let's lose that "...grafting is the only reliable way to reproduce
apple trees..." garbage.

Grafting is the only reliable way to produce genetic clones, ie: copies,
of apple trees. That is why as I said production apple trees are grafted.

But, there are a great many hobby growers of apples that do from-seed
growth in an effort to try to create new apple varieties and many people
also seek out wild from-seed trees in an effort to find new apple varieties.

As the grocery selection of apples has waned - since grocers really only
care about fruit that looks good and keeps for a long time - there has
been a resurgence in interest in hobby breeding for taste. The commercial
apple industry is satisfied with the few varieties that the Japanese
breeders
have created and it is a real shame that their desire for bigger profit
margins
on apple sales has created so much misinformation that has caught people
like you.

These ungrafted trees are
limited to a very few apples, like Antonovka, but this variety is used
more
as a rootstock than an eating apple.

Magenta Crabapple
Midwest crabapple
Sargent crabapple
Siberian crabapple
Zumi crabapple

all of these are available from-seed from he

http://www.coldstreamfarm.net/

And, these are just ornamental crabapples.

Non-grafted trees take longer to
produce
fruit and eventually get too big to be managed properly.


Intelligent pruning takes care of that, and fruit production
problems from young trees are not confined to non-grafted
trees. A common cause in apples, at any rate, is overfertilization
and overwatering. Life is just too easy for the young tree to put
effort into reproduction. A good pruning session can sometimes
trigger it, another technique is driving nails into the tree (NOT
recommended) and another technique is driving a spade into the
ground around the tree at the drip line, to cut some of the roots,
this will often trigger fruiting.

Any good production fruit tree must be pruned to keep up
production, AND harvested regularly! It is very damaging to
leave ripe fruit on a fruit tree, it deforms and can break limbs
and once the fruit is ripe, it will just suck more energy from the
tree if it's left hanging.

Ted

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...


Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

"Default User" wrote in message
...

I have a crapapple tree that has shown some interesting behavior the
past couple years. Here's some history.

It's a fairly large tree, and when I got the house it was very lush. I
should have had it pruned then, as it turns out. In about 2000, a
major
section split off from the main trunk and fell over. I had the whole
tree pruned and reshaped at the time, which reduced its size
considerably.

I was concerned over the following years that it might die, but it's
rallied and looks pretty good.

Now the odd part. Starting last year, one branch of the tree has
started to blossom in the fall. The last of them just fell off, so
figure around mid-September. This year's have set some fruit. I don't
know if the same branch blossomed in the spring when the rest of the
tree did, and as we had a spring freeze here I can't tell by looking
for mature fruit as they were all killed.

Has anyone heard of such a thing? To the best of my recollection, only
these two most recent years have shown this. The branch is close to
the
driveway, so it's very noticable.


Someone may have grafted apples of a different variety on to the
crabapple tree. That used to be a big fad a number of years ago
and you can still buy trees online that have different branches of
different
apples. Crabapple trees were a favorite to use for this since many
of them (particularly ones that aren't created purely as ornamental
trees) in the good old days were not grafted trees.

These days most ornamental crabapples are grafted and virtually
all production apple trees are grafted. But there's a movement out
there against grafted apple trees and some growers are selling
non-grafted ones.

Ted

I don't know what kind of movement you are referring to. Grafting is
still
the only reliable way to reproduce apple trees.

No, sorry this isn't true. In actual fact there are two "non-grafted"
movements
on growing apple trees (and other fruit trees) The first is called
"own-root"
and the second is traditional "from-seed"

I don't know exactly where "own-root" started from but one of the
centers of it is in the UK - here's a URL for you:

http://www.cooltemperate.co.uk/own_root.shtml

The whole fallacy of this scheme to grow apple trees from seeds is that
they will all produce awful tasting apples, nothing like the ones from the
parent tree.



http://www.orangepippin.com/own-roots.aspx

Both these references do a lousy job of explaining how one propagates
a tree by the own-root system. Maybe they are bending the branches
over into the soil to take root and form a new tree? Beats me. If so,
I still see no advantage of this technique over grafting onto rootstocks.
For someone who knows about rootstocks and grafting, there are no
problems such as suggested in the articles.



but Googling on the phrase will get you hundreds of hits. Unlike seed, and
like grafting, this is a clone technique. Propagation is the usual method
of
putting a cutting in potting soil, with rooting hormone on the cutting,
keeping it
wet and in indirect light.

This may work, but it is not the best way to propagate an apple tree.
It works a lot better on things like house plants.

The biggest problem with it is that for a lot of
work your getting the same apple tree you could get by buying one of
the mass-produced grafted-to-regular rootstock trees from a nursery,
there's just not a lot of incentive for it.

As for from-seed growth, Google on "Apple tree from seed" and you
will get hundreds of hits. A lot of people have started apple trees from
seed and gotten good apples from them.

Now you are spouting garbage.



To make it simple for you:

http://www.usapple.org/consumers/kids/grown.cfm

"...every apple seed can potentially produce a new variety. This is in part
why more than 7,500 apple varieties have been identified worldwide..."

So please let's lose that "...grafting is the only reliable way to reproduce
apple trees..." garbage.

Pulling words out of context and twisting them around does not make
your case more factual. Some apple developers plant thousands of seedlings
with the hope that one of them may turn out usable. The smarter ones do
selective breeding of apples over periods of years to come up with such
apples as 'HoneySweet' from the U. of Minnesota. The point this reference
is making that there may be a 'chance seedling' that could develop into
something
worthwhile and that certainly can happen, but not an everyday occurrence.
You
miss the words 'reliably reproduce' and that's where you miss the point. The

probability that the seedling would be exactly like the parent tree's apples
is
even much less likely, if not impossible. An apple seed does not act like a
biological Zerox machine.



Grafting is the only reliable way to produce genetic clones, ie: copies,
of apple trees. That is why as I said production apple trees are grafted.

But, there are a great many hobby growers of apples that do from-seed
growth in an effort to try to create new apple varieties and many people
also seek out wild from-seed trees in an effort to find new apple varieties.

And many people who play the Lotto, hoping to make a killing.



As the grocery selection of apples has waned - since grocers really only
care about fruit that looks good and keeps for a long time - there has
been a resurgence in interest in hobby breeding for taste. The commercial
apple industry is satisfied with the few varieties that the Japanese
breeders
have created and it is a real shame that their desire for bigger profit
margins
on apple sales has created so much misinformation that has caught people
like you.

You are trying to trivialize the whole subject. There is no 'free lunch'
when
it comes to finding new improved apple varieties.



These ungrafted trees are
limited to a very few apples, like Antonovka, but this variety is used
more
as a rootstock than an eating apple.

Magenta Crabapple
Midwest crabapple
Sargent crabapple
Siberian crabapple
Zumi crabapple

all of these are available from-seed from he

http://www.coldstreamfarm.net/

And, these are just ornamental crabapples.

Non-grafted trees take longer to
produce
fruit and eventually get too big to be managed properly.


Intelligent pruning takes care of that

Oh great. Instead of planting a dwarf tree, plant a full size tree
and chop the hell out of it to make it into a dwarf.

, and fruit production
problems from young trees are not confined to non-grafted
trees. A common cause in apples, at any rate, is overfertilization
and overwatering. Life is just too easy for the young tree to put
effort into reproduction. A good pruning session can sometimes
trigger it, another technique is driving nails into the tree (NOT
recommended) and another technique is driving a spade into the
ground around the tree at the drip line, to cut some of the roots,
this will often trigger fruiting.

I'm going to report you to the Society for the Protection of Trees.



Any good production fruit tree must be pruned to keep up
production, AND harvested regularly! It is very damaging to
leave ripe fruit on a fruit tree, it deforms and can break limbs
and once the fruit is ripe, it will just suck more energy from the
tree if it's left hanging.

This last paragraph is maybe the only thing that I can agree with.

Sherwin



Ted

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...


The whole fallacy of this scheme to grow apple trees from seeds is that
they will all produce awful tasting apples, nothing like the ones from the
parent tree.

Very untrue. If you don't believe me I'll be happy to provide some
URLs. The topic comes up periodically on many garden sites and lots of
people have reported that apple trees gotten this way produce edible and
many times good tasting apples.

You are also not right that they will produce apples that are nothing like
the parent tree. They will produce apples that are not exact copies of
the parent tree, but contain elements of both parents.

Both these references do a lousy job of explaining how one propagates
a tree by the own-root system.

Boy you are a lazy one! Are you unable to use a search engine? There's
at least one company out there selling a kit that is a plastic ball you
snap over a branch, you partly girdle the branch, apply root hormone,
snap the plastic around it, then put water in it.

Maybe they are bending the branches
over into the soil to take root and form a new tree? Beats me. If so,
I still see no advantage of this technique over grafting onto rootstocks.

How do you -know- that grafting is better?

See the problem here is that commercial apple growers have been doing
things the way they are doing them for so long that people just naturally
assume that the way a commercial grower does it is the "right" way to
propagate apple trees. But, this is only the "right" way if you goal is to
create another commercial orchard filled with the same trees that all
grow the same variety of apples so you can get as close to mechanical
harvesting as possible and sell palletloads of the same apple variety -
which is what the commercial fruit distributors want to buy.

This is usually quite different from what a home user wants who wants
to grow a -single- tree. Sure - a grafted Gala or Golden Delicious may
be perfectly satisfying to them - nonwithstanding they can get the same
thing from the grocery store for less money and effort - but what if your
Grandma living out in the country has a special apple tree that you ate
apples from as a kid - and now you want to plant the same tree in your
yard? God help you since the tree is almost certainly NOT going to be
available from ANY commercial nursery. The only thing your going to
be able to do is get rootstock and scionwood from Grandmas tree
if it's still there. And suppose you try that and it doesen't work?

And in any case, even the commercial growers don't know that
grafted trees are better - unless every once in a while someone tries
doing it differently to see what happens. It's called a baseline comparison
and it's regularly done in every other industry. The guy in the URL I
cited living in the UK had a career out of growing trees and he
feels own-root trees have some advantages and the subject was
worth researching further.

Own-root isn't for me - but I think you are very closed minded if you
would turn your back on it.

Some apple developers plant thousands of seedlings
with the hope that one of them may turn out usable.

Ah, finally your admitting that there ARE people doing seedling apple trees.

But once more, and I will continually hammer on this since I kind of have
some suspicions about your FUD, what an apple developer regards as
usable is NOT necessarily what is "just edible"

Long storage life is probably the TOP trait that commercial apple developers
breed for, followed by bruise resistance, then followed by color. Why -
because
these are the traits that attract shoppers in the grocery store.

Taste is WAY WAY down on the list. FAR LESS important than the other
items.

The REAL truth is that apple developers plant thousands of seedlings
and end up with many hundreds of apples that TASTE GOOD but do NOT
have the long term storability that the industry demands. If a superior
tasting
apple comes along that only has a weeks shelf life, they might try breeding
in longer shelf life, but it's going to go into the shitcan.

A century and a half ago there were thousands of apple varieties in the US
that were
commonly sold - not many of these contained the traits that fruit sellers
want
today. These came about from individual people seeding trees in their
backyards.

The smarter ones do selective breeding of apples over periods of years to
come up with such apples as 'HoneySweet' from the U. of Minnesota.

"Honeycrisp" not "honeysweet" And I hardly call crossing Macoun with
Honeygold to be particularly noteworthy. Once more, this is just another
of the modern table varieties developed for long storage life - it is, in
fact, the
principle selling point of Honeycrisp - but poor cooking properties as
you have to cook them far longer than other apples before they soften.

U of Minnesota gets a royalty on these which is another reason that the
variety is so advertised. The University is out there banging the drum
for it.

The
probability that the seedling would be exactly like the parent tree's
apples is
even much less likely, if not impossible. An apple seed does not act like
a
biological Zerox machine.

When people resort to straw men to try winning an arguement
is is pitiful. I in no way stated or implied that grown-from-seed
apples would be exactly like the parent tree's apples.

You are trying to trivialize the whole subject. There is no 'free lunch'
when
it comes to finding new improved apple varieties.

It depends on your definition of "improved" apple varities.

There's no free lunch when you want to have your cake and eat it too.
The apple growers want an apple that will store forever, look fantastic,
not need waxing, not need spraying, be resistant to every known apple
tree disease, every known apple tree worm, be harvestable by gorillas
who slam the fruit into the hoppper and load tons of fruit on top of each
other, growing on trees that are all exactly identical,

and not be immediately spit out in disgust by a consumer biting into it.

Yes, there is no free lunch when that is what you want.

But for someone growing a few apple trees in their yard, well what
do they want?

Perhaps what they want is to be able to walk out, pick some apples
for dinner, or for baking a pie, and have the most fantastic tasting fruit
they've every eaten in their lives. They don't care if a few of the apples
on the tree might have worms, they don't care if the apples don't look
all that great. They don't care if the apples aren't gigantic.

Or, maybe they really have no interest in cooking, and really just want
a fruiting tree that attracts wildlife. (since animals will take what they
can get and aren't too particular)

Oh great. Instead of planting a dwarf tree, plant a full size tree
and chop the hell out of it to make it into a dwarf.

Ah, so all of our goals here are to grow dwarf trees? Where do
YOU live, in some Suburb that has a neighborhood association that
put deed restrictions into your home disallowing trees larger than
15 feet high?

You frankly sound like you have some personal gain to getting people
to believe that there's no chance to grow an apple from seed and get
anything usable out of it. I really wonder what. Perhaps your alma-mater
is making a killing on royalties for apple trees.

Whatever it is, you are wrong in what your saying. Growing apples from
seed is a viable method of getting a decent apple tree that produces
good tasting apples. You generally can't do it from apples that come from
the grocery store - since most commercial orchards use crabapple
pollenators and a cross from a Gala (for example) and a crabapple very
likely won't be any good - if the seeds are still viable after apple
processing -
or if the apple variety didn't have sterile seeds genetically engineered
into
it. (one of the many reasons the industry wants genetic enginnering) or
if the apple didn't come from a self-fruit (like Golden Delicious which will
self-fruit if there's no pollenators around)

But, you can definitely do it from apples that show up at local farmers
markets
that come from mom-and-pop orchards whith maybe 10-15 trees of different
varieties, or heirloom apples (assuming you can find it) since these often
come from the same kinds of orchards. Or from your neighbors single apple
tree in his yard that he ignores most of the time. Sure, you have to be
patient
and take time to do it. Years of time. And your probably going to have to
plant
quite a few of them and expect to cut most of them down once they start
fruiting. But, it's not as unreasonable as you are claiming, many people
have done
it. There's worse hobbies.

Ted

"Ted Mittelstaedt" expounded:

Very untrue

Ted, you're fighting a losing battle. Sherwin is absolutely
determined to deter anyone and everyone from ever growing an apple
from seed. It's his life's mission.
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...

The whole fallacy of this scheme to grow apple trees from seeds is that
they will all produce awful tasting apples, nothing like the ones from the
parent tree.

Very untrue. If you don't believe me I'll be happy to provide some
URLs. The topic comes up periodically on many garden sites and lots of
people have reported that apple trees gotten this way produce edible and
many times good tasting apples.

I still don't believe you.



You are also not right that they will produce apples that are nothing like
the parent tree. They will produce apples that are not exact copies of
the parent tree, but contain elements of both parents.

Actually, this is a recessive gene issue and the characteristics can go back
further than the original tree.



Both these references do a lousy job of explaining how one propagates
a tree by the own-root system.

Boy you are a lazy one! Are you unable to use a search engine? There's
at least one company out there selling a kit that is a plastic ball you
snap over a branch, you partly girdle the branch, apply root hormone,
snap the plastic around it, then put water in it.

Oh, you mean air-rooting. I have done that with a Plumeria once. Is this
supposed to be easier than grafting? I can do and have done graphs in
minutes.
I also have the advantage of selecting the tree size by using the proper
rootstock.
With own-root systems, you get a full size standard tree, Ugh.



Maybe they are bending the branches
over into the soil to take root and form a new tree? Beats me. If so,
I still see no advantage of this technique over grafting onto rootstocks.

How do you -know- that grafting is better?

I just mentioned the size control issue. It's much less work.



See the problem here is that commercial apple growers have been doing
things the way they are doing them for so long that people just naturally
assume that the way a commercial grower does it is the "right" way to
propagate apple trees.

These commercial growers are not as dumb or stubborn as you think.
They have been moving quickly to dwarf trees because the maintenance
and quick time to fruit production are superior to standard size trees.

But, this is only the "right" way if you goal is to
create another commercial orchard filled with the same trees that all
grow the same variety of apples so you can get as close to mechanical
harvesting as possible and sell palletloads of the same apple variety -
which is what the commercial fruit distributors want to buy.

The commercial growers want to grow something that will Reliably
give them a good product. They leave it up to Universities and other
people to come up with new varieties.



This is usually quite different from what a home user wants who wants
to grow a -single- tree. Sure - a grafted Gala or Golden Delicious may
be perfectly satisfying to them - nonwithstanding they can get the same
thing from the grocery store for less money and effort - but what if your
Grandma living out in the country has a special apple tree that you ate
apples from as a kid - and now you want to plant the same tree in your
yard?

The solution to that is to take a piece of Grandma's tree (scion) and graft
it onto your own rootstock. You make it sound like the selection of
varieties
is limited to the home grower. As a home grower, I have easy access to
literally
hundreds of different scion varieties. I don't have to waste my time trying
to create something unusual when I have so many choices available.

God help you since the tree is almost certainly NOT going to be
available from ANY commercial nursery. The only thing your going to
be able to do is get rootstock and scionwood from Grandmas tree
if it's still there. And suppose you try that and it doesen't work?

You are a man of little faith. And what makes you think your Own-roots
tree is going to work any more reliably?



And in any case, even the commercial growers don't know that
grafted trees are better - unless every once in a while someone tries
doing it differently to see what happens. It's called a baseline comparison
and it's regularly done in every other industry. The guy in the URL I
cited living in the UK had a career out of growing trees and he
feels own-root trees have some advantages and the subject was
worth researching further.

As far as I'm concerned, this guy in the UK is a kook until proven
otherwise.
Don't underestimate the intelligence of the commercial growers. They are
constantly checking for new proven varieties.



Own-root isn't for me - but I think you are very closed minded if you
would turn your back on it.

I also turn my back on UFO's. Seen any lately?



Some apple developers plant thousands of seedlings
with the hope that one of them may turn out usable.

Ah, finally your admitting that there ARE people doing seedling apple trees.

Yes, but they know what they are doing. You can't seriously expect a home
owner to come even close to reproducing what they are doing.



But once more, and I will continually hammer on this since I kind of have
some suspicions about your FUD

My what?

, what an apple developer regards as
usable is NOT necessarily what is "just edible"

It better be edible or he won't get any more business.



Long storage life is probably the TOP trait that commercial apple developers
breed for, followed by bruise resistance, then followed by color. Why -
because
these are the traits that attract shoppers in the grocery store.

That is all changing. Have you been to your supermarket lately. You will
see
all kinds of new Japanese, New Zealand, U. of Minnesota, etc. apples in
additon
to the old standbys of Red Delicious and Granny Smith.



Taste is WAY WAY down on the list. FAR LESS important than the other
items.

That was true at one time, but I think that changed some time ago.



The REAL truth is that apple developers plant thousands of seedlings
and end up with many hundreds of apples that TASTE GOOD but do NOT
have the long term storability that the industry demands. If a superior
tasting
apple comes along that only has a weeks shelf life, they might try breeding
in longer shelf life, but it's going to go into the shitcan.

With some exceptions, that is true. However, taste has become a bigger
factor in what you see in the stores. That is the advantage of home
growers
like myself who can grow perishable and ugly fruit to get the top taste. It

doesn't always work for the commercial growers.




A century and a half ago there were thousands of apple varieties in the US
that were
commonly sold - not many of these contained the traits that fruit sellers
want
today. These came about from individual people seeding trees in their
backyards.

Again, your facts are wrong. Most of these seedlings grown by pioneers,
etc.
were not very good for eating and were mostly used for cider. Since fresh
water and fruit was sometimes a problem for them in the Winter, they relied
on the cider. Grafting goes way back to the Roman times. They knew the
advantages of grafting and that was carried on to the present day.



The smarter ones do selective breeding of apples over periods of years to
come up with such apples as 'HoneySweet' from the U. of Minnesota.

"Honeycrisp" not "honeysweet" And I hardly call crossing Macoun with
Honeygold to be particularly noteworthy.

Have you tasted a Honeycrisp. I would imagine not. They sell for three
times
the price of other apples because of their superior taste and crispness.

Once more, this is just another
of the modern table varieties developed for long storage life - it is, in
fact, the
principle selling point of Honeycrisp - but poor cooking properties as
you have to cook them far longer than other apples before they soften.

There are plenty of other apple varieties suitable for cooking.



U of Minnesota gets a royalty on these which is another reason that the
variety is so advertised. The University is out there banging the drum
for it.

And they deserve it. I grow a Honeycrisp in my yard and look forward
to those apples every year.



The
probability that the seedling would be exactly like the parent tree's
apples is
even much less likely, if not impossible. An apple seed does not act like
a
biological Zerox machine.

When people resort to straw men to try winning an arguement
is is pitiful. I in no way stated or implied that grown-from-seed
apples would be exactly like the parent tree's apples.

You are trying to trivialize the whole subject. There is no 'free lunch'
when
it comes to finding new improved apple varieties.

It depends on your definition of "improved" apple varities.

There's no free lunch when you want to have your cake and eat it too.
The apple growers want an apple that will store forever, look fantastic,
not need waxing, not need spraying, be resistant to every known apple
tree disease, every known apple tree worm, be harvestable by gorillas
who slam the fruit into the hoppper and load tons of fruit on top of each
other, growing on trees that are all exactly identical,

and not be immediately spit out in disgust by a consumer biting into it.

I think those are admirable desires, but they know they have to spray
their trees to keep them clean. The consumer wants to know what they
are buying. Stores will not experiment with unknown apples until you
convince them that they will sell.



Yes, there is no free lunch when that is what you want.

But for someone growing a few apple trees in their yard, well what
do they want?

Perhaps what they want is to be able to walk out, pick some apples
for dinner, or for baking a pie, and have the most fantastic tasting fruit
they've every eaten in their lives. They don't care if a few of the apples
on the tree might have worms, they don't care if the apples don't look
all that great. They don't care if the apples aren't gigantic.

I grow 15 different apples in my yard. I think they are among the best
tasting ones available and most of them cannot be bought in a store.
I keep the worms out as best I can and can get nice large apples with
proper thinning. I don't care what apples are being sold in the stores
because I have everything I want in my back yard.



Or, maybe they really have no interest in cooking,

I have plenty of varieties for cooking.

and really just want
a fruiting tree that attracts wildlife. (since animals will take what they
can get and aren't too particular)

I control the animals too.



Oh great. Instead of planting a dwarf tree, plant a full size tree
and chop the hell out of it to make it into a dwarf.

Ah, so all of our goals here are to grow dwarf trees? Where do
YOU live, in some Suburb that has a neighborhood association that
put deed restrictions into your home disallowing trees larger than
15 feet high?

No, I can grow any height. I don't need 20 foot or higher trees that
can't be reached without a tall ladder that could kill me if I fall off.
Spraying and pruning these high monsters. Forget it.



You frankly sound like you have some personal gain to getting people
to believe that there's no chance to grow an apple from seed and get
anything usable out of it. I really wonder what. Perhaps your alma-mater
is making a killing on royalties for apple trees.

No, I don't like people like you encouraging people to grow apples from
seed, put years of labor into caring for it, and then discovering that the
apples
it produces are spitters.



Whatever it is, you are wrong in what your saying. Growing apples from
seed is a viable method of getting a decent apple tree that produces
good tasting apples.

Baloney.

You generally can't do it from apples that come from
the grocery store - since most commercial orchards use crabapple
pollenators and a cross from a Gala (for example) and a crabapple very
likely won't be any good - if the seeds are still viable after apple
processing -
or if the apple variety didn't have sterile seeds genetically engineered
into
it. (one of the many reasons the industry wants genetic enginnering) or
if the apple didn't come from a self-fruit (like Golden Delicious which will
self-fruit if there's no pollenators around)

I am a self-starter and like to do projects myself, but when it comes to
developing new apple varieties, I leave it up to the people with the
resources.



But, you can definitely do it from apples that show up at local farmers
markets
that come from mom-and-pop orchards whith maybe 10-15 trees of different
varieties, or heirloom apples (assuming you can find it) since these often
come from the same kinds of orchards. Or from your neighbors single apple
tree in his yard that he ignores most of the time. Sure, you have to be
patient
and take time to do it. Years of time. And your probably going to have to
plant
quite a few of them

Maybe a few thousand.

and expect to cut most of them down once they start
fruiting. But, it's not as unreasonable as you are claiming, many people
have done
it. There's worse hobbies.

What a horrible waste of time. If you were talking peaches, I may agree
a bit more with you, since they propagate closer to the parent from seed.

Sherwin



Ted

Ann wrote:

"Ted Mittelstaedt" expounded:

Very untrue

Ted, you're fighting a losing battle. Sherwin is absolutely
determined to deter anyone and everyone from ever growing an apple
from seed. It's his life's mission.

My life mission is to prevent misinformation propagated by you and
Ted sending people off on wild goose chases.

Sherwin


--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

Janet Baraclough wrote:

The message
from Ann contains these words:

Ted, you're fighting a losing battle. Sherwin is absolutely
determined to deter anyone and everyone from ever growing an apple
from seed. It's his life's mission.

I reckon Sherwin just has a phobia about apple pips. He probably
believes if he swallowed an apple pip it would get stuck in his
appendix, start growing and kill him.

Amazing how all you people stick together through thick and thin,
right or wrong.

Sherwin



Janet.

sherwindu expounded:

My life mission is to prevent misinformation propagated by you and
Ted sending people off on wild goose chases.

I didn't send Ted off anywhere, Sherwin, it's amazing - you think we
all think together, yet all of us are independent thinkers who came to
the same conclusion about you.
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

In article ,
sherwindu wrote:

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...

The whole fallacy of this scheme to grow apple trees from seeds is that
they will all produce awful tasting apples, nothing like the ones from
the
parent tree.

Very untrue. If you don't believe me I'll be happy to provide some
URLs. The topic comes up periodically on many garden sites and lots of
people have reported that apple trees gotten this way produce edible and
many times good tasting apples.

I still don't believe you.



You are also not right that they will produce apples that are nothing like
the parent tree. They will produce apples that are not exact copies of
the parent tree, but contain elements of both parents.

Actually, this is a recessive gene issue and the characteristics can go
back
further than the original tree.



Both these references do a lousy job of explaining how one propagates
a tree by the own-root system.

Boy you are a lazy one! Are you unable to use a search engine? There's
at least one company out there selling a kit that is a plastic ball you
snap over a branch, you partly girdle the branch, apply root hormone,
snap the plastic around it, then put water in it.

Oh, you mean air-rooting. I have done that with a Plumeria once. Is this
supposed to be easier than grafting? I can do and have done graphs in
minutes.
I also have the advantage of selecting the tree size by using the proper
rootstock.
With own-root systems, you get a full size standard tree, Ugh.



Maybe they are bending the branches
over into the soil to take root and form a new tree? Beats me. If so,
I still see no advantage of this technique over grafting onto rootstocks.

How do you -know- that grafting is better?

I just mentioned the size control issue. It's much less work.



See the problem here is that commercial apple growers have been doing
things the way they are doing them for so long that people just naturally
assume that the way a commercial grower does it is the "right" way to
propagate apple trees.

These commercial growers are not as dumb or stubborn as you think.
They have been moving quickly to dwarf trees because the maintenance
and quick time to fruit production are superior to standard size trees.

But, this is only the "right" way if you goal is to
create another commercial orchard filled with the same trees that all
grow the same variety of apples so you can get as close to mechanical
harvesting as possible and sell palletloads of the same apple variety -
which is what the commercial fruit distributors want to buy.

The commercial growers want to grow something that will Reliably
give them a good product. They leave it up to Universities and other
people to come up with new varieties.



This is usually quite different from what a home user wants who wants
to grow a -single- tree. Sure - a grafted Gala or Golden Delicious may
be perfectly satisfying to them - nonwithstanding they can get the same
thing from the grocery store for less money and effort - but what if your
Grandma living out in the country has a special apple tree that you ate
apples from as a kid - and now you want to plant the same tree in your
yard?

The solution to that is to take a piece of Grandma's tree (scion) and
graft
it onto your own rootstock. You make it sound like the selection of
varieties
is limited to the home grower. As a home grower, I have easy access to
literally
hundreds of different scion varieties. I don't have to waste my time
trying
to create something unusual when I have so many choices available.

God help you since the tree is almost certainly NOT going to be
available from ANY commercial nursery. The only thing your going to
be able to do is get rootstock and scionwood from Grandmas tree
if it's still there. And suppose you try that and it doesen't work?

You are a man of little faith. And what makes you think your Own-roots
tree is going to work any more reliably?



And in any case, even the commercial growers don't know that
grafted trees are better - unless every once in a while someone tries
doing it differently to see what happens. It's called a baseline
comparison
and it's regularly done in every other industry. The guy in the URL I
cited living in the UK had a career out of growing trees and he
feels own-root trees have some advantages and the subject was
worth researching further.

As far as I'm concerned, this guy in the UK is a kook until proven
otherwise.
Don't underestimate the intelligence of the commercial growers. They are
constantly checking for new proven varieties.



Own-root isn't for me - but I think you are very closed minded if you
would turn your back on it.

I also turn my back on UFO's. Seen any lately?



Some apple developers plant thousands of seedlings
with the hope that one of them may turn out usable.

Ah, finally your admitting that there ARE people doing seedling apple
trees.

Yes, but they know what they are doing. You can't seriously expect a
home
owner to come even close to reproducing what they are doing.



But once more, and I will continually hammer on this since I kind of have
some suspicions about your FUD

My what?

, what an apple developer regards as
usable is NOT necessarily what is "just edible"

It better be edible or he won't get any more business.



Long storage life is probably the TOP trait that commercial apple
developers
breed for, followed by bruise resistance, then followed by color. Why -
because
these are the traits that attract shoppers in the grocery store.

That is all changing. Have you been to your supermarket lately. You will
see
all kinds of new Japanese, New Zealand, U. of Minnesota, etc. apples in
additon
to the old standbys of Red Delicious and Granny Smith.



Taste is WAY WAY down on the list. FAR LESS important than the other
items.

That was true at one time, but I think that changed some time ago.



The REAL truth is that apple developers plant thousands of seedlings
and end up with many hundreds of apples that TASTE GOOD but do NOT
have the long term storability that the industry demands. If a superior
tasting
apple comes along that only has a weeks shelf life, they might try breeding
in longer shelf life, but it's going to go into the shitcan.

With some exceptions, that is true. However, taste has become a bigger
factor in what you see in the stores. That is the advantage of home
growers
like myself who can grow perishable and ugly fruit to get the top taste.
It

doesn't always work for the commercial growers.




A century and a half ago there were thousands of apple varieties in the US
that were
commonly sold - not many of these contained the traits that fruit sellers
want
today. These came about from individual people seeding trees in their
backyards.

Again, your facts are wrong. Most of these seedlings grown by pioneers,
etc.
were not very good for eating and were mostly used for cider. Since
fresh
water and fruit was sometimes a problem for them in the Winter, they
relied
on the cider. Grafting goes way back to the Roman times. They knew the
advantages of grafting and that was carried on to the present day.



The smarter ones do selective breeding of apples over periods of years to
come up with such apples as 'HoneySweet' from the U. of Minnesota.

"Honeycrisp" not "honeysweet" And I hardly call crossing Macoun with
Honeygold to be particularly noteworthy.

Have you tasted a Honeycrisp. I would imagine not. They sell for three
times
the price of other apples because of their superior taste and crispness.

Once more, this is just another
of the modern table varieties developed for long storage life - it is, in
fact, the
principle selling point of Honeycrisp - but poor cooking properties as
you have to cook them far longer than other apples before they soften.

There are plenty of other apple varieties suitable for cooking.



U of Minnesota gets a royalty on these which is another reason that the
variety is so advertised. The University is out there banging the drum
for it.

And they deserve it. I grow a Honeycrisp in my yard and look forward
to those apples every year.



The
probability that the seedling would be exactly like the parent tree's
apples is
even much less likely, if not impossible. An apple seed does not act like
a
biological Zerox machine.

When people resort to straw men to try winning an arguement
is is pitiful. I in no way stated or implied that grown-from-seed
apples would be exactly like the parent tree's apples.

You are trying to trivialize the whole subject. There is no 'free lunch'
when
it comes to finding new improved apple varieties.

It depends on your definition of "improved" apple varities.

There's no free lunch when you want to have your cake and eat it too.
The apple growers want an apple that will store forever, look fantastic,
not need waxing, not need spraying, be resistant to every known apple
tree disease, every known apple tree worm, be harvestable by gorillas
who slam the fruit into the hoppper and load tons of fruit on top of each
other, growing on trees that are all exactly identical,

and not be immediately spit out in disgust by a consumer biting into it.

I think those are admirable desires, but they know they have to spray
their trees to keep them clean. The consumer wants to know what they
are buying. Stores will not experiment with unknown apples until you
convince them that they will sell.



Yes, there is no free lunch when that is what you want.

But for someone growing a few apple trees in their yard, well what
do they want?

Perhaps what they want is to be able to walk out, pick some apples
for dinner, or for baking a pie, and have the most fantastic tasting fruit
they've every eaten in their lives. They don't care if a few of the apples
on the tree might have worms, they don't care if the apples don't look
all that great. They don't care if the apples aren't gigantic.

I grow 15 different apples in my yard. I think they are among the best
tasting ones available and most of them cannot be bought in a store.
I keep the worms out as best I can and can get nice large apples with
proper thinning. I don't care what apples are being sold in the stores
because I have everything I want in my back yard.



Or, maybe they really have no interest in cooking,

I have plenty of varieties for cooking.

and really just want
a fruiting tree that attracts wildlife. (since animals will take what they
can get and aren't too particular)

I control the animals too.



Oh great. Instead of planting a dwarf tree, plant a full size tree
and chop the hell out of it to make it into a dwarf.

Ah, so all of our goals here are to grow dwarf trees? Where do
YOU live, in some Suburb that has a neighborhood association that
put deed restrictions into your home disallowing trees larger than
15 feet high?

No, I can grow any height. I don't need 20 foot or higher trees that
can't be reached without a tall ladder that could kill me if I fall off.
Spraying and pruning these high monsters. Forget it.



You frankly sound like you have some personal gain to getting people
to believe that there's no chance to grow an apple from seed and get
anything usable out of it. I really wonder what. Perhaps your alma-mater
is making a killing on royalties for apple trees.

No, I don't like people like you encouraging people to grow apples from
seed, put years of labor into caring for it, and then discovering that
the
apples
it produces are spitters.



Whatever it is, you are wrong in what your saying. Growing apples from
seed is a viable method of getting a decent apple tree that produces
good tasting apples.

Baloney.

You generally can't do it from apples that come from
the grocery store - since most commercial orchards use crabapple
pollenators and a cross from a Gala (for example) and a crabapple very
likely won't be any good - if the seeds are still viable after apple
processing -
or if the apple variety didn't have sterile seeds genetically engineered
into
it. (one of the many reasons the industry wants genetic enginnering) or
if the apple didn't come from a self-fruit (like Golden Delicious which
will
self-fruit if there's no pollenators around)

I am a self-starter and like to do projects myself, but when it comes to
developing new apple varieties, I leave it up to the people with the
resources.



But, you can definitely do it from apples that show up at local farmers
markets
that come from mom-and-pop orchards whith maybe 10-15 trees of different
varieties, or heirloom apples (assuming you can find it) since these often
come from the same kinds of orchards. Or from your neighbors single apple
tree in his yard that he ignores most of the time. Sure, you have to be
patient
and take time to do it. Years of time. And your probably going to have to
plant
quite a few of them

Maybe a few thousand.

and expect to cut most of them down once they start
fruiting. But, it's not as unreasonable as you are claiming, many people
have done
it. There's worse hobbies.

What a horrible waste of time. If you were talking peaches, I may agree
a bit more with you, since they propagate closer to the parent from seed.

Sherwin



Ted

Just an observation Sherwin, do you notice how often you use the word
"I"? Compare the number of times that you use "I" with that of Ted's.
(It's about four times more.) It's a freakish thought that you may
really know something but it seems that you have a way of standing in
front of your information and thus obscuring it.

If you can present your information without inserting yourself into it
so much, I think you would get a better reception.
--
FB - FFF

Billy

Get up, stand up, stand up for yor rights.
Get up, stand up, Don't give up the fight.
- Bob Marley