"John Bachman" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:55:38 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
John Bachman wrote:

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:37:01 -0700, dicornus
wrote:

I moved to a new home in Feb this year and the garden is completely
overgrown with weeds! The garden apparently has not been tended for
approx 3 years and having watched the garden over the spring and
summer there doesn't appear to be any plants worth saving except an
alstromeria!! Can anybody advise on how I should tackle the seemingly
daunting task of turning this derelict piece of land into a family
garden? Should I just resort to using a strong weedkiller although I
understand that I might not be able to then plant for some months?

At the risk of being labeled as an agent of Monsanto I will give you
some advice should you choose some chemical solutions to your problem.
Pay no mind to the blasts that will be directed my way, it has
happened before and it will happen again. Oh, I am not an agent of
Monsanto or any other company. I am just a guy who works a mini-farm
all by himself and am interested in any labor saving method since I am
the only source of labor.

You have not specified what kind of garden you seek, vegetable, flower
or both.

In either case you can safely use pesticides to get your situation
under control but do not go out and buy "weed killer". First learn
how herbicides work. You will need to know what crops you wish to
grow and specifically what weeds you are battling. This is not easy,
but in the long run can save you some back breaking work.

Once you know what weeds you are dealing with and what their growth
habit is you will know the characteristics of herbicide that you need.
Then identify the product that you need and READ THE LABEL. If it is
labeled for use on your weeds and your crop then you can apply it AS
DIRECTED ON THE LABEL.

Buying "weed killer" and spraying it about willy, nilly is wasteful,
harmful, illegal and ineffective. Learning what products are
appropriate to your situation and how they must be applied can save
you lots of work.

If you follow this advise you will not be "poisoning" the land or any
other such nonsense. You will be saving yourself a lot of work and
frustration. That land is likely to be loaded with an abundance of
weed seeds that will germinate despite all of your yanking and
mulching efforts.

JMHO

John

John, what are your views on lasagna gardening where the ground is
covered with newspaper or cardboard to prevent germination of unwanted
plants, and then spread with amendments and mulched? This is said to
encourage micro-organisms and improve the soil.

I think that is a splendid technique if it is appropriate to your
situation. If you can keep the area adequately mulched and still get
the plants that you want to grow then go to it.

The knock on faming with chemicals is that it kills soil fertility,
pollutes the environment, and, on an industrial scale, leads to a loss
of top soil. Then there is the contention of phyto-nutrients being
depleted from foods by modern farming methods.

Yes, the farmer should be cautious when using chemical pesticides. All
of the farmers that I know are very cautious. Many of them are
strictly organic due mostly to the marketing advantages.

Since I am the only laborer on my mini-farm, mulch techniques such as
we discussed above are not effective in some of my areas. However, I
just planted my garlic crop which is now nestled under four inches of
straw. The mulch will be the primary weed control but not the only
one as some persistant ones will pop through. I will yank what I can
but may be forced to use a herbicide. If so, I will do it but
cautiously.

In my opinion, too many people assume that farmers who use chemical
methods are 'poisoning the earth'. My experience is very different
from that.

Finally, what would you recommend to this potential gardener as a plan
to develop his garden plot. I realize that flower beds and hedges are
different from vegetable gardens but would you make any recommendations
about either.

It depends upon your situation. I recommend Integrated Pest
Management techniques, which boils down to using the methods that are
appropriate to your situation and does not preclude anything. My
version of IPM is to use the least invasive method that will work for
me to deal with any problem. If I can do it organically, that will be
my first choice. If not, then I move into more aggressive techniques
but do so being concious of what I am doing.


To this, I'll add that it helps to watch closely and see if an insect attack
is really damaging a certain vegetable that much before taking action.
Often, it doesn't matter much and the problem passes. Example: In a normal
October here (Rochester), the cold would've stopped whatever eats the leaves
on my collard greens. This year, there was little or no bug damage until 3
weeks ago. From a distance, it looks pretty bad, but it turns out they're
only eating the older outer leaves which looked ratty anyway due to age. Two
days ago, I still harvested enough to freeze enough to last until next
spring. So, I'm not going to fret over it. Same with the green beans back in
August. Just when the beans began to form, something attacked the leaves. I
still got a huge harvest.

On 10/22/07 5:27 PM, in article ,
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

"Scott Hildenbrand" wrote in message
...
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"dicornus" wrote in message
ups.com...
I moved to a new home in Feb this year and the garden is completely
overgrown with weeds! The garden apparently has not been tended for
approx 3 years and having watched the garden over the spring and
summer there doesn't appear to be any plants worth saving except an
alstromeria!! Can anybody advise on how I should tackle the seemingly
daunting task of turning this derelict piece of land into a family
garden? Should I just resort to using a strong weedkiller although I
understand that I might not be able to then plant for some months?


No weed killer, especially if you have any thoughts of planting edibles
in there.

Tackle it a few feet at a time, on your knees, with some good hand tools.
You could also cover some areas with clear plastic, a week or two ahead
of the grunt labor.

Go pick up a pitch fork to loosen the soil in large patches, will make
pulling MUCH easier..

Yep. It's a miracle tool.



I think it is the one tool I turn to time after time.

A pair placed back to back in clump of daylilies and levered apart with
break up even the most over grown clump.
C

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

Jim wrote:
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

[....]

The fork is also excellent for menacing recalcitrant dog walkers
(criminals)
who are about to walk away from your lawn with picking up the gift their
dogs leave. Skip the "please" stage, hold fork the right way, and tell
the
dog criminal what to do. They'll pick up the dog gift with their bare
hands
and leave quickly.

first they took the guns. then they took the
knives. next they'll take the forks.

g

I donate to the NFA. Even Charlton Heston wasn't man enough to be a member.

there's a nasty rumor going around. seems at the last NFA
banquet dinner the caterer substituted sporks in the place
of forks.

there's no end to some peoples sense of humor.

g

I had the same situation a few years ago, if you can afford it get a petrol mower. It impressed me how it ploughs through anything.

That'll make it look better at least

"JoeSpareBedroom" expounded:

The fork is also excellent for menacing recalcitrant dog walkers (criminals)
who are about to walk away from your lawn with picking up the gift their
dogs leave. Skip the "please" stage, hold fork the right way, and tell the
dog criminal what to do. They'll pick up the dog gift with their bare hands
and leave quickly.

Works on speeding cars, too.

Who's that madwoman standing at the side of the road ready to spear my
windshield with that pitchfork??!?

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

YouNewt wrote:
dicornus;755612 Wrote:
I moved to a new home in Feb this year and the garden is completely
overgrown with weeds! The garden apparently has not been tended for
approx 3 years and having watched the garden over the spring and
summer there doesn't appear to be any plants worth saving except an
alstromeria!! Can anybody advise on how I should tackle the seemingly
daunting task of turning this derelict piece of land into a family
garden? Should I just resort to using a strong weedkiller although I
understand that I might not be able to then plant for some months?

I had the same situation a few years ago, if you can afford it get a
petrol mower. It impressed me how it ploughs through anything.

That'll make it look better at least


Get a honking big mower to cut away the worst of it. Burn it, haul it
off, or (my usual, environmental solution) mulch it.

Then rent a honking big tiller and plow it under.

When (with luck, if) it germinates, plow it under again.

Get a truckload of green wood chips - not mulch, you want the green
stuff. Spread it all around and choke the weeds.

When the woodchips turn to mulch, you're ready to do whatever you want.

A bit unorthodox, but worked for me a couple of times. YMMV, and a lot
easier than pulling by hand.

"dicornus" wrote in message
ups.com...
I moved to a new home in Feb this year and the garden is completely
overgrown with weeds! The garden apparently has not been tended for
approx 3 years and having watched the garden over the spring and
summer there doesn't appear to be any plants worth saving except an
alstromeria!! Can anybody advise on how I should tackle the seemingly
daunting task of turning this derelict piece of land into a family
garden? Should I just resort to using a strong weedkiller although I
understand that I might not be able to then plant for some months?


After you've gotten all the plant material out that you can, use spading
fork as deep as you can plant it. Turn the soil over as you pull it out.
Do not tread on it except to get any major rootage out. Loosen this treaded
earth again with the spading fork. Leave dormant for a year. Apply any
mulch loosely, don't mix it in yet. If not present, dump some earthworms to
start the process. Add non-meat, non-bone food scraps. Keep the soil
moist, not wet. Pull any greenery in the interim. Turn the soil again next
autumn, leave it loose. Do a soil check at the end of the period the
following spring. Then, if needed, fertilize accordingly. The entire
family should participate in the spading, and weeding as a family unit.
Toddlers eat anything, watch out.
Dave

In article ,
John Bachman wrote:

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:55:38 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
John Bachman wrote:

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:37:01 -0700, dicornus
wrote:

I moved to a new home in Feb this year and the garden is completely
overgrown with weeds! The garden apparently has not been tended for
approx 3 years and having watched the garden over the spring and
summer there doesn't appear to be any plants worth saving except an
alstromeria!! Can anybody advise on how I should tackle the seemingly
daunting task of turning this derelict piece of land into a family
garden? Should I just resort to using a strong weedkiller although I
understand that I might not be able to then plant for some months?

At the risk of being labeled as an agent of Monsanto I will give you
some advice should you choose some chemical solutions to your problem.
Pay no mind to the blasts that will be directed my way, it has
happened before and it will happen again. Oh, I am not an agent of
Monsanto or any other company. I am just a guy who works a mini-farm
all by himself and am interested in any labor saving method since I am
the only source of labor.

You have not specified what kind of garden you seek, vegetable, flower
or both.

In either case you can safely use pesticides to get your situation
under control but do not go out and buy "weed killer". First learn
how herbicides work. You will need to know what crops you wish to
grow and specifically what weeds you are battling. This is not easy,
but in the long run can save you some back breaking work.

Once you know what weeds you are dealing with and what their growth
habit is you will know the characteristics of herbicide that you need.
Then identify the product that you need and READ THE LABEL. If it is
labeled for use on your weeds and your crop then you can apply it AS
DIRECTED ON THE LABEL.

Buying "weed killer" and spraying it about willy, nilly is wasteful,
harmful, illegal and ineffective. Learning what products are
appropriate to your situation and how they must be applied can save
you lots of work.

If you follow this advise you will not be "poisoning" the land or any
other such nonsense. You will be saving yourself a lot of work and
frustration. That land is likely to be loaded with an abundance of
weed seeds that will germinate despite all of your yanking and
mulching efforts.

JMHO

John

John, what are your views on lasagna gardening where the ground is
covered with newspaper or cardboard to prevent germination of unwanted
plants, and then spread with amendments and mulched? This is said to
encourage micro-organisms and improve the soil.

I think that is a splendid technique if it is appropriate to your
situation. If you can keep the area adequately mulched and still get
the plants that you want to grow then go to it.

The knock on faming with chemicals is that it kills soil fertility,
pollutes the environment, and, on an industrial scale, leads to a loss
of top soil. Then there is the contention of phyto-nutrients being
depleted from foods by modern farming methods.

Yes, the farmer should be cautious when using chemical pesticides. All
of the farmers that I know are very cautious. Many of them are
strictly organic due mostly to the marketing advantages.

Since I am the only laborer on my mini-farm, mulch techniques such as
we discussed above are not effective in some of my areas. However, I
just planted my garlic crop which is now nestled under four inches of
straw. The mulch will be the primary weed control but not the only
one as some persistant ones will pop through. I will yank what I can
but may be forced to use a herbicide. If so, I will do it but
cautiously.

In my opinion, too many people assume that farmers who use chemical
methods are 'poisoning the earth'. My experience is very different
from that.

Finally, what would you recommend to this potential gardener as a plan
to develop his garden plot. I realize that flower beds and hedges are
different from vegetable gardens but would you make any recommendations
about either.

It depends upon your situation. I recommend Integrated Pest
Management techniques, which boils down to using the methods that are
appropriate to your situation and does not preclude anything. My
version of IPM is to use the least invasive method that will work for
me to deal with any problem. If I can do it organically, that will be
my first choice. If not, then I move into more aggressive techniques
but do so being concious of what I am doing.



I hope I'm not badgering. These are academic questions that I wish to
know the answers to. (Shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition:-)

No problem at all. These groups are a great forum for learning until
the screaming starts.

John

John, thank you for your response. You know that I am philosophically
opposed to ". . cides" but who knows, maybe one of these days I'll run
into a problem that my philosophy can't cope with, maybe. It is probably
my pragmatic side (or neurotic side) that keeps me looking at the
horizon.

Your friend.
--
FB - FFF

Billy

Get up, stand up, stand up for your rights.
Get up, stand up, Don't give up the fight.
- Bob Marley

In article ,
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

"John Bachman" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:55:38 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
John Bachman wrote:

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:37:01 -0700, dicornus
wrote:

I moved to a new home in Feb this year and the garden is completely
overgrown with weeds! The garden apparently has not been tended for
approx 3 years and having watched the garden over the spring and
summer there doesn't appear to be any plants worth saving except an
alstromeria!! Can anybody advise on how I should tackle the seemingly
daunting task of turning this derelict piece of land into a family
garden? Should I just resort to using a strong weedkiller although I
understand that I might not be able to then plant for some months?

At the risk of being labeled as an agent of Monsanto I will give you
some advice should you choose some chemical solutions to your problem.
Pay no mind to the blasts that will be directed my way, it has
happened before and it will happen again. Oh, I am not an agent of
Monsanto or any other company. I am just a guy who works a mini-farm
all by himself and am interested in any labor saving method since I am
the only source of labor.

You have not specified what kind of garden you seek, vegetable, flower
or both.

In either case you can safely use pesticides to get your situation
under control but do not go out and buy "weed killer". First learn
how herbicides work. You will need to know what crops you wish to
grow and specifically what weeds you are battling. This is not easy,
but in the long run can save you some back breaking work.

Once you know what weeds you are dealing with and what their growth
habit is you will know the characteristics of herbicide that you need.
Then identify the product that you need and READ THE LABEL. If it is
labeled for use on your weeds and your crop then you can apply it AS
DIRECTED ON THE LABEL.

Buying "weed killer" and spraying it about willy, nilly is wasteful,
harmful, illegal and ineffective. Learning what products are
appropriate to your situation and how they must be applied can save
you lots of work.

If you follow this advise you will not be "poisoning" the land or any
other such nonsense. You will be saving yourself a lot of work and
frustration. That land is likely to be loaded with an abundance of
weed seeds that will germinate despite all of your yanking and
mulching efforts.

JMHO

John

John, what are your views on lasagna gardening where the ground is
covered with newspaper or cardboard to prevent germination of unwanted
plants, and then spread with amendments and mulched? This is said to
encourage micro-organisms and improve the soil.

I think that is a splendid technique if it is appropriate to your
situation. If you can keep the area adequately mulched and still get
the plants that you want to grow then go to it.

The knock on faming with chemicals is that it kills soil fertility,
pollutes the environment, and, on an industrial scale, leads to a loss
of top soil. Then there is the contention of phyto-nutrients being
depleted from foods by modern farming methods.

Yes, the farmer should be cautious when using chemical pesticides. All
of the farmers that I know are very cautious. Many of them are
strictly organic due mostly to the marketing advantages.

Since I am the only laborer on my mini-farm, mulch techniques such as
we discussed above are not effective in some of my areas. However, I
just planted my garlic crop which is now nestled under four inches of
straw. The mulch will be the primary weed control but not the only
one as some persistant ones will pop through. I will yank what I can
but may be forced to use a herbicide. If so, I will do it but
cautiously.

In my opinion, too many people assume that farmers who use chemical
methods are 'poisoning the earth'. My experience is very different
from that.

Finally, what would you recommend to this potential gardener as a plan
to develop his garden plot. I realize that flower beds and hedges are
different from vegetable gardens but would you make any recommendations
about either.

It depends upon your situation. I recommend Integrated Pest
Management techniques, which boils down to using the methods that are
appropriate to your situation and does not preclude anything. My
version of IPM is to use the least invasive method that will work for
me to deal with any problem. If I can do it organically, that will be
my first choice. If not, then I move into more aggressive techniques
but do so being concious of what I am doing.


To this, I'll add that it helps to watch closely and see if an insect attack
is really damaging a certain vegetable that much before taking action.
Often, it doesn't matter much and the problem passes. Example: In a normal
October here (Rochester), the cold would've stopped whatever eats the leaves
on my collard greens. This year, there was little or no bug damage until 3
weeks ago. From a distance, it looks pretty bad, but it turns out they're
only eating the older outer leaves which looked ratty anyway due to age. Two
days ago, I still harvested enough to freeze enough to last until next
spring. So, I'm not going to fret over it. Same with the green beans back in
August. Just when the beans began to form, something attacked the leaves. I
still got a huge harvest.

And in "Omnivore's Dilemma", Michael Pollan made the observation that
insects went after the leaves of plants when artificial fertilizers were
used because that is where the nitrogen was stored. Additionally, chem
ferts such as ammonium sulfate are salts and kill off soil
micro-organisms that could slowly feed plants without a big surge of
nitrogen. And lastly, there is a group of nutrients called
phyto-nutrients that seem to be important to our health and are
deficient in artificially fed plants.

Pays yo' money and take yo' chances.
--
FB - FFF

Billy

Get up, stand up, stand up for your rights.
Get up, stand up, Don't give up the fight.
- Bob Marley