I moved to a new home in Feb this year and the garden is completely
overgrown with weeds! The garden apparently has not been tended for
approx 3 years and having watched the garden over the spring and
summer there doesn't appear to be any plants worth saving except an
alstromeria!! Can anybody advise on how I should tackle the seemingly
daunting task of turning this derelict piece of land into a family
garden? Should I just resort to using a strong weedkiller although I
understand that I might not be able to then plant for some months?

"dicornus" wrote in message
ups.com...
I moved to a new home in Feb this year and the garden is completely
overgrown with weeds! The garden apparently has not been tended for
approx 3 years and having watched the garden over the spring and
summer there doesn't appear to be any plants worth saving except an
alstromeria!! Can anybody advise on how I should tackle the seemingly
daunting task of turning this derelict piece of land into a family
garden? Should I just resort to using a strong weedkiller although I
understand that I might not be able to then plant for some months?


No weed killer, especially if you have any thoughts of planting edibles in
there.

Tackle it a few feet at a time, on your knees, with some good hand tools.
You could also cover some areas with clear plastic, a week or two ahead of
the grunt labor.

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"dicornus" wrote in message
ups.com...
I moved to a new home in Feb this year and the garden is completely
overgrown with weeds! The garden apparently has not been tended for
approx 3 years and having watched the garden over the spring and
summer there doesn't appear to be any plants worth saving except an
alstromeria!! Can anybody advise on how I should tackle the seemingly
daunting task of turning this derelict piece of land into a family
garden? Should I just resort to using a strong weedkiller although I
understand that I might not be able to then plant for some months?


No weed killer, especially if you have any thoughts of planting edibles in
there.

Tackle it a few feet at a time, on your knees, with some good hand tools.
You could also cover some areas with clear plastic, a week or two ahead of
the grunt labor.



Go pick up a pitch fork to loosen the soil in large patches, will make
pulling MUCH easier..

I never thought I'd need a pitch fork until I moved recently. Picked one
up just to relocate our day lily collection but have found it a
priceless tool for redoing our neglected beds and yard.

Start pitchin' in a straight line working from the end of the bed,
backwards. It'll save some of that back breaking work, a few feet at a
time, on your knees.

How much space do you have to clean up anyway?

"Scott Hildenbrand" wrote in message
...
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"dicornus" wrote in message
ups.com...
I moved to a new home in Feb this year and the garden is completely
overgrown with weeds! The garden apparently has not been tended for
approx 3 years and having watched the garden over the spring and
summer there doesn't appear to be any plants worth saving except an
alstromeria!! Can anybody advise on how I should tackle the seemingly
daunting task of turning this derelict piece of land into a family
garden? Should I just resort to using a strong weedkiller although I
understand that I might not be able to then plant for some months?


No weed killer, especially if you have any thoughts of planting edibles
in there.

Tackle it a few feet at a time, on your knees, with some good hand tools.
You could also cover some areas with clear plastic, a week or two ahead
of the grunt labor.

Go pick up a pitch fork to loosen the soil in large patches, will make
pulling MUCH easier..

Yep. It's a miracle tool.

In article ,
Scott Hildenbrand wrote:

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"dicornus" wrote in message
ups.com...
I moved to a new home in Feb this year and the garden is completely
overgrown with weeds! The garden apparently has not been tended for
approx 3 years and having watched the garden over the spring and
summer there doesn't appear to be any plants worth saving except an
alstromeria!! Can anybody advise on how I should tackle the seemingly
daunting task of turning this derelict piece of land into a family
garden? Should I just resort to using a strong weedkiller although I
understand that I might not be able to then plant for some months?


No weed killer, especially if you have any thoughts of planting edibles in
there.

Tackle it a few feet at a time, on your knees, with some good hand tools.
You could also cover some areas with clear plastic, a week or two ahead of
the grunt labor.



Go pick up a pitch fork to loosen the soil in large patches, will make
pulling MUCH easier..

I never thought I'd need a pitch fork until I moved recently. Picked one
up just to relocate our day lily collection but have found it a
priceless tool for redoing our neglected beds and yard.

Start pitchin' in a straight line working from the end of the bed,
backwards. It'll save some of that back breaking work, a few feet at a
time, on your knees.

How much space do you have to clean up anyway?

I think a pitch fork is for tossing hay. You want a garden fork .

Picky picky picky.

Bill who owns about five one for dancing about the garden aka Jervon's.

Look for Smith and Hawken or Bulldog tools.

http://www.google.com/search?q=smith%20hawken%20fork

--

S Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade

This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.

http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid

"William Wagner" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Scott Hildenbrand wrote:

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"dicornus" wrote in message
ups.com...
I moved to a new home in Feb this year and the garden is completely
overgrown with weeds! The garden apparently has not been tended for
approx 3 years and having watched the garden over the spring and
summer there doesn't appear to be any plants worth saving except an
alstromeria!! Can anybody advise on how I should tackle the seemingly
daunting task of turning this derelict piece of land into a family
garden? Should I just resort to using a strong weedkiller although I
understand that I might not be able to then plant for some months?


No weed killer, especially if you have any thoughts of planting edibles
in
there.

Tackle it a few feet at a time, on your knees, with some good hand
tools.
You could also cover some areas with clear plastic, a week or two ahead
of
the grunt labor.



Go pick up a pitch fork to loosen the soil in large patches, will make
pulling MUCH easier..

I never thought I'd need a pitch fork until I moved recently. Picked one
up just to relocate our day lily collection but have found it a
priceless tool for redoing our neglected beds and yard.

Start pitchin' in a straight line working from the end of the bed,
backwards. It'll save some of that back breaking work, a few feet at a
time, on your knees.

How much space do you have to clean up anyway?

I think a pitch fork is for tossing hay. You want a garden fork .

Picky picky picky.

Bill who owns about five one for dancing about the garden aka Jervon's.

Look for Smith and Hawken or Bulldog tools.

http://www.google.com/search?q=smith%20hawken%20fork


Twice in the past year, friends have tried to order tools from S&H and
they've been told they were out of stock. Four years ago, when I needed to
order a spade & fork, the entire tool section of the web site was gone. I
called the company and was told "We're not carrying tools at this time".
What??? The person sounded like a moron, so I decided to call one of their
stores in a ritzy neighborhood - Manhasset, Long Island. The guy on the
phone said he had plenty of the tools I wanted. He charged me for UPS ground
shipping, but they arrived the next day, in boxes he'd built himself.

I love the tools, but since that company lost its mind and went into the
stupid overpriced garden accessory business, they can be challenging to work
with.

In article ,
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

"William Wagner" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Scott Hildenbrand wrote:

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"dicornus" wrote in message
ups.com...
I moved to a new home in Feb this year and the garden is completely
overgrown with weeds! The garden apparently has not been tended for
approx 3 years and having watched the garden over the spring and
summer there doesn't appear to be any plants worth saving except an
alstromeria!! Can anybody advise on how I should tackle the seemingly
daunting task of turning this derelict piece of land into a family
garden? Should I just resort to using a strong weedkiller although I
understand that I might not be able to then plant for some months?


No weed killer, especially if you have any thoughts of planting edibles
in
there.

Tackle it a few feet at a time, on your knees, with some good hand
tools.
You could also cover some areas with clear plastic, a week or two ahead
of
the grunt labor.



Go pick up a pitch fork to loosen the soil in large patches, will make
pulling MUCH easier..

I never thought I'd need a pitch fork until I moved recently. Picked one
up just to relocate our day lily collection but have found it a
priceless tool for redoing our neglected beds and yard.

Start pitchin' in a straight line working from the end of the bed,
backwards. It'll save some of that back breaking work, a few feet at a
time, on your knees.

How much space do you have to clean up anyway?

I think a pitch fork is for tossing hay. You want a garden fork .

Picky picky picky.

Bill who owns about five one for dancing about the garden aka Jervon's.

Look for Smith and Hawken or Bulldog tools.

http://www.google.com/search?q=smith%20hawken%20fork


Twice in the past year, friends have tried to order tools from S&H and
they've been told they were out of stock. Four years ago, when I needed to
order a spade & fork, the entire tool section of the web site was gone. I
called the company and was told "We're not carrying tools at this time".
What??? The person sounded like a moron, so I decided to call one of their
stores in a ritzy neighborhood - Manhasset, Long Island. The guy on the
phone said he had plenty of the tools I wanted. He charged me for UPS ground
shipping, but they arrived the next day, in boxes he'd built himself.

I love the tools, but since that company lost its mind and went into the
stupid overpriced garden accessory business, they can be challenging to work
with.

I hear you and agree. I sort of anticipated the loss of access to
good hand tools and bought many. Life long investment plus. Same thing
happened with a firm that made Chi Pants and another that dealt with
Japanese bedding. A major loss only if you know what was available.
Good Incense still around.

Bill Now off to playing Swedish Chef.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoXGHw4hK60

--

S Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade

This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.

http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid

"William Wagner" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

"William Wagner" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Scott Hildenbrand wrote:

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"dicornus" wrote in message
ups.com...
I moved to a new home in Feb this year and the garden is completely
overgrown with weeds! The garden apparently has not been tended
for
approx 3 years and having watched the garden over the spring and
summer there doesn't appear to be any plants worth saving except an
alstromeria!! Can anybody advise on how I should tackle the
seemingly
daunting task of turning this derelict piece of land into a family
garden? Should I just resort to using a strong weedkiller although
I
understand that I might not be able to then plant for some months?


No weed killer, especially if you have any thoughts of planting
edibles
in
there.

Tackle it a few feet at a time, on your knees, with some good hand
tools.
You could also cover some areas with clear plastic, a week or two
ahead
of
the grunt labor.



Go pick up a pitch fork to loosen the soil in large patches, will make
pulling MUCH easier..

I never thought I'd need a pitch fork until I moved recently. Picked
one
up just to relocate our day lily collection but have found it a
priceless tool for redoing our neglected beds and yard.

Start pitchin' in a straight line working from the end of the bed,
backwards. It'll save some of that back breaking work, a few feet at a
time, on your knees.

How much space do you have to clean up anyway?

I think a pitch fork is for tossing hay. You want a garden fork .

Picky picky picky.

Bill who owns about five one for dancing about the garden aka
Jervon's.

Look for Smith and Hawken or Bulldog tools.

http://www.google.com/search?q=smith%20hawken%20fork


Twice in the past year, friends have tried to order tools from S&H and
they've been told they were out of stock. Four years ago, when I needed
to
order a spade & fork, the entire tool section of the web site was gone. I
called the company and was told "We're not carrying tools at this time".
What??? The person sounded like a moron, so I decided to call one of
their
stores in a ritzy neighborhood - Manhasset, Long Island. The guy on the
phone said he had plenty of the tools I wanted. He charged me for UPS
ground
shipping, but they arrived the next day, in boxes he'd built himself.

I love the tools, but since that company lost its mind and went into the
stupid overpriced garden accessory business, they can be challenging to
work
with.

I hear you and agree. I sort of anticipated the loss of access to
good hand tools and bought many. Life long investment plus. Same thing
happened with a firm that made Chi Pants and another that dealt with
Japanese bedding. A major loss only if you know what was available.
Good Incense still around.


Still worth fighting with them to get the tools, though, in case any newbies
are reading this. They're better, somehow. Balance, or something.

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:37:01 -0700, dicornus
wrote:

I moved to a new home in Feb this year and the garden is completely
overgrown with weeds! The garden apparently has not been tended for
approx 3 years and having watched the garden over the spring and
summer there doesn't appear to be any plants worth saving except an
alstromeria!! Can anybody advise on how I should tackle the seemingly
daunting task of turning this derelict piece of land into a family
garden? Should I just resort to using a strong weedkiller although I
understand that I might not be able to then plant for some months?

At the risk of being labeled as an agent of Monsanto I will give you
some advice should you choose some chemical solutions to your problem.
Pay no mind to the blasts that will be directed my way, it has
happened before and it will happen again. Oh, I am not an agent of
Monsanto or any other company. I am just a guy who works a mini-farm
all by himself and am interested in any labor saving method since I am
the only source of labor.

You have not specified what kind of garden you seek, vegetable, flower
or both.

In either case you can safely use pesticides to get your situation
under control but do not go out and buy "weed killer". First learn
how herbicides work. You will need to know what crops you wish to
grow and specifically what weeds you are battling. This is not easy,
but in the long run can save you some back breaking work.

Once you know what weeds you are dealing with and what their growth
habit is you will know the characteristics of herbicide that you need.
Then identify the product that you need and READ THE LABEL. If it is
labeled for use on your weeds and your crop then you can apply it AS
DIRECTED ON THE LABEL.

Buying "weed killer" and spraying it about willy, nilly is wasteful,
harmful, illegal and ineffective. Learning what products are
appropriate to your situation and how they must be applied can save
you lots of work.

If you follow this advise you will not be "poisoning" the land or any
other such nonsense. You will be saving yourself a lot of work and
frustration. That land is likely to be loaded with an abundance of
weed seeds that will germinate despite all of your yanking and
mulching efforts.

JMHO

John

In article ,
John Bachman wrote:

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:37:01 -0700, dicornus
wrote:

I moved to a new home in Feb this year and the garden is completely
overgrown with weeds! The garden apparently has not been tended for
approx 3 years and having watched the garden over the spring and
summer there doesn't appear to be any plants worth saving except an
alstromeria!! Can anybody advise on how I should tackle the seemingly
daunting task of turning this derelict piece of land into a family
garden? Should I just resort to using a strong weedkiller although I
understand that I might not be able to then plant for some months?

At the risk of being labeled as an agent of Monsanto I will give you
some advice should you choose some chemical solutions to your problem.
Pay no mind to the blasts that will be directed my way, it has
happened before and it will happen again. Oh, I am not an agent of
Monsanto or any other company. I am just a guy who works a mini-farm
all by himself and am interested in any labor saving method since I am
the only source of labor.

You have not specified what kind of garden you seek, vegetable, flower
or both.

In either case you can safely use pesticides to get your situation
under control but do not go out and buy "weed killer". First learn
how herbicides work. You will need to know what crops you wish to
grow and specifically what weeds you are battling. This is not easy,
but in the long run can save you some back breaking work.

Once you know what weeds you are dealing with and what their growth
habit is you will know the characteristics of herbicide that you need.
Then identify the product that you need and READ THE LABEL. If it is
labeled for use on your weeds and your crop then you can apply it AS
DIRECTED ON THE LABEL.

Buying "weed killer" and spraying it about willy, nilly is wasteful,
harmful, illegal and ineffective. Learning what products are
appropriate to your situation and how they must be applied can save
you lots of work.

If you follow this advise you will not be "poisoning" the land or any
other such nonsense. You will be saving yourself a lot of work and
frustration. That land is likely to be loaded with an abundance of
weed seeds that will germinate despite all of your yanking and
mulching efforts.

JMHO

John

John, what are your views on lasagna gardening where the ground is
covered with newspaper or cardboard to prevent germination of unwanted
plants, and then spread with amendments and mulched? This is said to
encourage micro-organisms and improve the soil.

The knock on faming with chemicals is that it kills soil fertility,
pollutes the environment, and, on an industrial scale, leads to a loss
of top soil. Then there is the contention of phyto-nutrients being
depleted from foods by modern farming methods.

Finally, what would you recommend to this potential gardener as a plan
to develop his garden plot. I realize that flower beds and hedges are
different from vegetable gardens but would you make any recommendations
about either.

I hope I'm not badgering. These are academic questions that I wish to
know the answers to. (Shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition:-)

Best regards,
--
FB - FFF

Billy

Get up, stand up, stand up for your rights.
Get up, stand up, Don't give up the fight.
- Bob Marley

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:55:38 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
John Bachman wrote:

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:37:01 -0700, dicornus
wrote:

I moved to a new home in Feb this year and the garden is completely
overgrown with weeds! The garden apparently has not been tended for
approx 3 years and having watched the garden over the spring and
summer there doesn't appear to be any plants worth saving except an
alstromeria!! Can anybody advise on how I should tackle the seemingly
daunting task of turning this derelict piece of land into a family
garden? Should I just resort to using a strong weedkiller although I
understand that I might not be able to then plant for some months?

At the risk of being labeled as an agent of Monsanto I will give you
some advice should you choose some chemical solutions to your problem.
Pay no mind to the blasts that will be directed my way, it has
happened before and it will happen again. Oh, I am not an agent of
Monsanto or any other company. I am just a guy who works a mini-farm
all by himself and am interested in any labor saving method since I am
the only source of labor.

You have not specified what kind of garden you seek, vegetable, flower
or both.

In either case you can safely use pesticides to get your situation
under control but do not go out and buy "weed killer". First learn
how herbicides work. You will need to know what crops you wish to
grow and specifically what weeds you are battling. This is not easy,
but in the long run can save you some back breaking work.

Once you know what weeds you are dealing with and what their growth
habit is you will know the characteristics of herbicide that you need.
Then identify the product that you need and READ THE LABEL. If it is
labeled for use on your weeds and your crop then you can apply it AS
DIRECTED ON THE LABEL.

Buying "weed killer" and spraying it about willy, nilly is wasteful,
harmful, illegal and ineffective. Learning what products are
appropriate to your situation and how they must be applied can save
you lots of work.

If you follow this advise you will not be "poisoning" the land or any
other such nonsense. You will be saving yourself a lot of work and
frustration. That land is likely to be loaded with an abundance of
weed seeds that will germinate despite all of your yanking and
mulching efforts.

JMHO

John

John, what are your views on lasagna gardening where the ground is
covered with newspaper or cardboard to prevent germination of unwanted
plants, and then spread with amendments and mulched? This is said to
encourage micro-organisms and improve the soil.

I think that is a splendid technique if it is appropriate to your
situation. If you can keep the area adequately mulched and still get
the plants that you want to grow then go to it.

The knock on faming with chemicals is that it kills soil fertility,
pollutes the environment, and, on an industrial scale, leads to a loss
of top soil. Then there is the contention of phyto-nutrients being
depleted from foods by modern farming methods.

Yes, the farmer should be cautious when using chemical pesticides. All
of the farmers that I know are very cautious. Many of them are
strictly organic due mostly to the marketing advantages.

Since I am the only laborer on my mini-farm, mulch techniques such as
we discussed above are not effective in some of my areas. However, I
just planted my garlic crop which is now nestled under four inches of
straw. The mulch will be the primary weed control but not the only
one as some persistant ones will pop through. I will yank what I can
but may be forced to use a herbicide. If so, I will do it but
cautiously.

In my opinion, too many people assume that farmers who use chemical
methods are 'poisoning the earth'. My experience is very different
from that.

Finally, what would you recommend to this potential gardener as a plan
to develop his garden plot. I realize that flower beds and hedges are
different from vegetable gardens but would you make any recommendations
about either.

It depends upon your situation. I recommend Integrated Pest
Management techniques, which boils down to using the methods that are
appropriate to your situation and does not preclude anything. My
version of IPM is to use the least invasive method that will work for
me to deal with any problem. If I can do it organically, that will be
my first choice. If not, then I move into more aggressive techniques
but do so being concious of what I am doing.



I hope I'm not badgering. These are academic questions that I wish to
know the answers to. (Shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition:-)

No problem at all. These groups are a great forum for learning until
the screaming starts.

John

William Wagner expounded:

I think a pitch fork is for tossing hay. You want a garden fork .

Digging fork, spading, fork, potato fork. I love mine, I bought it
from Johnny's. Slightly pricey but it comes with a lifetime
guarantee.
http://www.johnnyseeds.com/catalog/p...fork&item=9433
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

"Ann" wrote in message
...
William Wagner expounded:

I think a pitch fork is for tossing hay. You want a garden fork .

Digging fork, spading, fork, potato fork. I love mine, I bought it
from Johnny's. Slightly pricey but it comes with a lifetime
guarantee.
http://www.johnnyseeds.com/catalog/p...fork&item=9433
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts


The fork is also excellent for menacing recalcitrant dog walkers (criminals)
who are about to walk away from your lawn with picking up the gift their
dogs leave. Skip the "please" stage, hold fork the right way, and tell the
dog criminal what to do. They'll pick up the dog gift with their bare hands
and leave quickly.

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

[....]

The fork is also excellent for menacing recalcitrant dog walkers (criminals)
who are about to walk away from your lawn with picking up the gift their
dogs leave. Skip the "please" stage, hold fork the right way, and tell the
dog criminal what to do. They'll pick up the dog gift with their bare hands
and leave quickly.

first they took the guns. then they took the
knives. next they'll take the forks.

g

"John Bachman" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:55:38 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
John Bachman wrote:

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:37:01 -0700, dicornus
wrote:

I moved to a new home in Feb this year and the garden is completely
overgrown with weeds! The garden apparently has not been tended for
approx 3 years and having watched the garden over the spring and
summer there doesn't appear to be any plants worth saving except an
alstromeria!! Can anybody advise on how I should tackle the seemingly
daunting task of turning this derelict piece of land into a family
garden? Should I just resort to using a strong weedkiller although I
understand that I might not be able to then plant for some months?

At the risk of being labeled as an agent of Monsanto I will give you
some advice should you choose some chemical solutions to your problem.
Pay no mind to the blasts that will be directed my way, it has
happened before and it will happen again. Oh, I am not an agent of
Monsanto or any other company. I am just a guy who works a mini-farm
all by himself and am interested in any labor saving method since I am
the only source of labor.

You have not specified what kind of garden you seek, vegetable, flower
or both.

In either case you can safely use pesticides to get your situation
under control but do not go out and buy "weed killer". First learn
how herbicides work. You will need to know what crops you wish to
grow and specifically what weeds you are battling. This is not easy,
but in the long run can save you some back breaking work.

Once you know what weeds you are dealing with and what their growth
habit is you will know the characteristics of herbicide that you need.
Then identify the product that you need and READ THE LABEL. If it is
labeled for use on your weeds and your crop then you can apply it AS
DIRECTED ON THE LABEL.

Buying "weed killer" and spraying it about willy, nilly is wasteful,
harmful, illegal and ineffective. Learning what products are
appropriate to your situation and how they must be applied can save
you lots of work.

If you follow this advise you will not be "poisoning" the land or any
other such nonsense. You will be saving yourself a lot of work and
frustration. That land is likely to be loaded with an abundance of
weed seeds that will germinate despite all of your yanking and
mulching efforts.

JMHO

John

John, what are your views on lasagna gardening where the ground is
covered with newspaper or cardboard to prevent germination of unwanted
plants, and then spread with amendments and mulched? This is said to
encourage micro-organisms and improve the soil.

I think that is a splendid technique if it is appropriate to your
situation. If you can keep the area adequately mulched and still get
the plants that you want to grow then go to it.

The knock on faming with chemicals is that it kills soil fertility,
pollutes the environment, and, on an industrial scale, leads to a loss
of top soil. Then there is the contention of phyto-nutrients being
depleted from foods by modern farming methods.

Yes, the farmer should be cautious when using chemical pesticides. All
of the farmers that I know are very cautious. Many of them are
strictly organic due mostly to the marketing advantages.

Since I am the only laborer on my mini-farm, mulch techniques such as
we discussed above are not effective in some of my areas. However, I
just planted my garlic crop which is now nestled under four inches of
straw. The mulch will be the primary weed control but not the only
one as some persistant ones will pop through. I will yank what I can
but may be forced to use a herbicide. If so, I will do it but
cautiously.

In my opinion, too many people assume that farmers who use chemical
methods are 'poisoning the earth'. My experience is very different
from that.

Finally, what would you recommend to this potential gardener as a plan
to develop his garden plot. I realize that flower beds and hedges are
different from vegetable gardens but would you make any recommendations
about either.

It depends upon your situation. I recommend Integrated Pest
Management techniques, which boils down to using the methods that are
appropriate to your situation and does not preclude anything. My
version of IPM is to use the least invasive method that will work for
me to deal with any problem. If I can do it organically, that will be
my first choice. If not, then I move into more aggressive techniques
but do so being concious of what I am doing.


To this, I'll add that it helps to watch closely and see if an insect attack
is really damaging a certain vegetable that much before taking action.
Often, it doesn't matter much and the problem passes. Example: In a normal
October here (Rochester), the cold would've stopped whatever eats the leaves
on my collard greens. This year, there was little or no bug damage until 3
weeks ago. From a distance, it looks pretty bad, but it turns out they're
only eating the older outer leaves which looked ratty anyway due to age. Two
days ago, I still harvested enough to freeze enough to last until next
spring. So, I'm not going to fret over it. Same with the green beans back in
August. Just when the beans began to form, something attacked the leaves. I
still got a huge harvest.