Billy wrote:
In article ,
Jeff wrote:

Piedmont

Perfect, Asti, where I saw the grapes being grown on arbors in 1982, is
in the Piedmont of Italy.

Do you have any suggested sources for these? Many local nurseries are
in distress (and low stock variety) or out of business here, I had to go
to Lowes of all places... The drought killed them off, although this is
a nice rainy year, raining at the moment in fact...

On a side note, do you know anything about Goose Berries?

Jeff

On 5/4/2009 5:41 AM, Jeff wrote:
Billy wrote:
In article ,
Jeff wrote:

Piedmont
Perfect, Asti, where I saw the grapes being grown on arbors in 1982, is
in the Piedmont of Italy.

Do you have any suggested sources for these? Many local nurseries are
in distress (and low stock variety) or out of business here, I had to go
to Lowes of all places... The drought killed them off, although this is
a nice rainy year, raining at the moment in fact...

On a side note, do you know anything about Goose Berries?

Don't be looking for grapes now. They are best planted bare-root. If
your soil doesn't freeze in the winter, plant them in January.
Otherwise, plant them as soon as the soil can be dug. This means
waiting until next winter.

Patience is important. After my hill was repaired, my grape vines were
planted in December 2007. They might reach their supporting wire this
summer. If they do reach the wire, they might have 2-3 bunches of
grapes next year. (To maintain vigor, I won't let them have any more
than 3.) They probably won't start producing well until 2011.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

In article ,
Jeff wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Jeff wrote:

Piedmont

Perfect, Asti, where I saw the grapes being grown on arbors in 1982, is
in the Piedmont of Italy.

Do you have any suggested sources for these? Many local nurseries are
in distress (and low stock variety) or out of business here, I had to go
to Lowes of all places... The drought killed them off, although this is
a nice rainy year, raining at the moment in fact...
Must have been a heck of a drought, grapes have deep tap roots and are
often grown water stressed, intentionally, to keep the berries small.
The grapes of the Italian Piedmont area are Vitis venifera: Muscat,
Nebbiolo, Barbera, Dolcetto. Piemonte, Italy is surrounded by mountains.
It has hot summers, foggy autumns and cold winters plus calcareous marl
and sandstone soils.

I'd pick a Vitis labrusca for the south eastern U.S. As I said earlier,
with venifera in high humidity you will be battling mold and mildew
constantly. Even then, an arbor would shade the leaves (encouraging mold
and mildew). Most everywhere now, the training of the vines is allow the
maximum of sunlight and breeze to penetrate the vine to reduce the
occurrence of mold and mildew.

To my mind, the arbor isn't so much for shade, as it is to get you out
of the world of vinyl, plastic, and steel, and put you back into contact
with with the natural world of soil, plants, smells, colors, and just
maybe, the miracle of life.

On a side note, do you know anything about Goose Berries?
Nothing, except that they are vulnerable to magpie moth (Abraxas
grossulariata) caterpillars and the best method for removing them is to
remove the larvae by hand soon after they hatch.

Jeff
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

In article ,
"David E. Ross" wrote:

On 5/4/2009 5:41 AM, Jeff wrote:
Billy wrote:
In article ,
Jeff wrote:

Piedmont
Perfect, Asti, where I saw the grapes being grown on arbors in 1982, is
in the Piedmont of Italy.

Do you have any suggested sources for these? Many local nurseries are
in distress (and low stock variety) or out of business here, I had to go
to Lowes of all places... The drought killed them off, although this is
a nice rainy year, raining at the moment in fact...

On a side note, do you know anything about Goose Berries?

Don't be looking for grapes now. They are best planted bare-root. If
your soil doesn't freeze in the winter, plant them in January.
Otherwise, plant them as soon as the soil can be dug. This means
waiting until next winter.
Bare root is the cheapest but potted grapes can be planted any time of
year.

Patience is important. After my hill was repaired, my grape vines were
planted in December 2007. They might reach their supporting wire this
summer. If they do reach the wire, they might have 2-3 bunches of
grapes next year. (To maintain vigor, I won't let them have any more
than 3.) They probably won't start producing well until 2011.

Trimming off the young clusters in June will put more of the vines
energy into increased vegetative grow. This important to commercial
growers who want to maximize their production as soon as possible.
Commercially, grapevines are stripped of their fruit for the first three
years to increase the size of the plant. The commercial vines are
normally replaced after forty years, as production starts to diminish,
although they can live to be a hundred. If you let the vine bear fruit
for these first years, it won't damage the vine.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

Billy wrote:
In article ,
"David E. Ross" wrote:

On 5/4/2009 5:41 AM, Jeff wrote:
Billy wrote:
In article ,
Jeff wrote:

Piedmont
Perfect, Asti, where I saw the grapes being grown on arbors in 1982, is
in the Piedmont of Italy.
Do you have any suggested sources for these? Many local nurseries are
in distress (and low stock variety) or out of business here, I had to go
to Lowes of all places... The drought killed them off, although this is
a nice rainy year, raining at the moment in fact...

On a side note, do you know anything about Goose Berries?
Don't be looking for grapes now. They are best planted bare-root. If
your soil doesn't freeze in the winter, plant them in January.
Otherwise, plant them as soon as the soil can be dug. This means
waiting until next winter.
Bare root is the cheapest but potted grapes can be planted any time of
year.

OK. Largely what I see here is bare root and I'm assuming that mail
order will most likely be bare root. So, I'll put off the planting
except for the mystery potted grape (1 gallon, 3' tall) I acquired.
Being a mystery, other than it has red fruit on the label, I'm wondering
just what to do with it anyways, grapes apparently are a long time
project.


Patience is important. After my hill was repaired, my grape vines were
planted in December 2007. They might reach their supporting wire this
summer. If they do reach the wire, they might have 2-3 bunches of
grapes next year. (To maintain vigor, I won't let them have any more
than 3.) They probably won't start producing well until 2011.

Trimming off the young clusters in June will put more of the vines
energy into increased vegetative grow. This important to commercial
growers who want to maximize their production as soon as possible.
Commercially, grapevines are stripped of their fruit for the first three
years to increase the size of the plant. The commercial vines are
normally replaced after forty years, as production starts to diminish,
although they can live to be a hundred. If you let the vine bear fruit
for these first years, it won't damage the vine.

Thanks again to you and David.

Jeff

On Sun, 03 May 2009 17:18:03 -0700, "David E. Ross"
wrote:

On 5/3/2009 12:45 PM, Billy wrote:
In article ,
"David E. Ross" wrote:

If they grow well in your area (ask at a nursery, not at a hardware
store or lumber yard), try 'Perlette'.

May not be a good idea. Perlette are Vitis vinifera and west of the
Rockies they would be labor intensive to keep the mildew off.

Jeff would be better off with a Vitis labrusca which is native to his
region and used to the high humidity.

In any event, the University of Georgia makes recommendations at
http://pubs.caes.uga.edu/caespubs/pubcd/B807/B807.htm

While I get mildew on my roses, I've never seen it on my grapes,
including 'Perlette'. However, I do spray them after pruning (January)
with an emulsified mix of dormant oil and copper sulfate, at the same
time that I spray that mix on my roses and peach tree (the 1st of 2
sprayings for the peach).


Copper sulfate is toxic, handle with care. It prevents mold/mildew
very well, but probably would not use on food plants.

On 5/4/2009 1:14 PM, Phisherman wrote:
On Sun, 03 May 2009 17:18:03 -0700, "David E. Ross"
wrote:

On 5/3/2009 12:45 PM, Billy wrote:
In article ,
"David E. Ross" wrote:

If they grow well in your area (ask at a nursery, not at a hardware
store or lumber yard), try 'Perlette'.
May not be a good idea. Perlette are Vitis vinifera and west of the
Rockies they would be labor intensive to keep the mildew off.

Jeff would be better off with a Vitis labrusca which is native to his
region and used to the high humidity.

In any event, the University of Georgia makes recommendations at
http://pubs.caes.uga.edu/caespubs/pubcd/B807/B807.htm
While I get mildew on my roses, I've never seen it on my grapes,
including 'Perlette'. However, I do spray them after pruning (January)
with an emulsified mix of dormant oil and copper sulfate, at the same
time that I spray that mix on my roses and peach tree (the 1st of 2
sprayings for the peach).


Copper sulfate is toxic, handle with care. It prevents mold/mildew
very well, but probably would not use on food plants.

Yes, it's toxic. Its use as a fungicide was discovered in France, where
vineyards would apply it to vines to discourage vagabonds from stealing
the fruit. Knowing that it is toxic, they would apply enough to be
visible as a blue-green coating. The growers noticed that, where they
applied copper sulfate, the vines did not develop mildew.

I apply it as a dormant spray before any foliage appears. I spray my
peach, roses, and grapes right after pruning. I repeat the spray only
on the peach, just before the flower buds open. Since the plants have
not yet even bloomed let alone set fruit, there is no risk of
contaminating the fruit.

No, I'm not an organic gardener. But when you grow plants that are
unnatural (hybrids not found in nature) in an environment where they
would not grow if they were natural, you must sometimes resort to
unnatural practices.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary