"gardengal" wrote in message
On Nov 26, 4:15 pm, Balvenieman wrote:
Boo wrote:
I have recently had a problem with a large amount of dog mess in a
client's
garden and wonder if it is just something we have to put up with?

In my view, the presence of dogs in the garden is a clear
indication of their owner's regard for the garden as well as for the
person who tends it. It's time to move on and to be very clear about
your reasons for doing so.

What is this, the anti-dog forum?? Dogs and gardens can be perfectly
compatible
______________________________________________
Of course dogs and gardens can compatible, but that is not what has been
described by the OP.

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given writes:

"gardengal" wrote in message
On Nov 26, 4:15 pm, Balvenieman wrote:
Boo wrote:
I have recently had a problem with a large amount of dog mess in a
client's
garden and wonder if it is just something we have to put up with?

In my view, the presence of dogs in the garden is a clear
indication of their owner's regard for the garden as well as for the
person who tends it. It's time to move on and to be very clear about
your reasons for doing so.

What is this, the anti-dog forum?? Dogs and gardens can be perfectly
compatible

Not everybody loves dogs, get over it.

I'm interested in the subject. One poster indicated that you just have
to train the dog. Well, I don't understand how you train a dog not to
run. With the design of a dogs foot, running is going to remove grass.
I'm guessing, dogs and gardens are compatible if the yard is big enough
or the dog is small enough.

Pretty much anywhere they run they are going to cause damage unless you
build a run and fence it in or leash the dog. More details about how
people cope might be helpful to other posters.

As I've said, I've seen 3 labs turn a back yard into a moonscape pretty
quickly. A lab is pretty big and the yard in question is at least
25'x120'. The owner would just let the dogs out when they wanted to go
out.

On Nov 28, 9:22*am, wrote:
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given writes:

"gardengal" wrote in message
On Nov 26, 4:15 pm, Balvenieman wrote:
Boo wrote:
I have recently had a problem with a large amount of dog mess in a
client's
garden and wonder if it is just something we have to put up with?

In my view, the presence of dogs in the garden is a clear
indication of their owner's regard for the garden as well as for the
person who tends it. It's time to move on and to be very clear about
your reasons for doing so.

What is this, the anti-dog forum?? Dogs and gardens can be perfectly
compatible

Not everybody loves dogs, get over it.

I'm interested in the subject. *One poster indicated that you just have
to train the dog. *Well, I don't understand how you train a dog not to
run. *With the design of a dogs foot, running is going to remove grass.
I'm guessing, dogs and gardens are compatible if the yard is big enough
or the dog is small enough.

Pretty much anywhere they run they are going to cause damage unless you
build a run and fence it in or leash the dog. *More details about how
people cope might be helpful to other posters.

As I've said, I've seen 3 labs turn a back yard into a moonscape pretty
quickly. A lab is pretty big and the yard in question is at least
25'x120'. *The owner would just let the dogs out when they wanted to go
out.

I'd suggest YOU get over it!

First, the issue is how to deal with the dogs that reside at the
property in question - this is not the OP's garden and there is no
option of excluding the dogs. They live there - he/she does not. It's
a matter of dealing with the poop issue or choosing not to - simple as
that.

Second, unless the dogs are still young and therefore still very
trainable, it is far easier to design and build a garden around them
and their habits, rather than attempting to retrain mature dogs to
follow the design. That's just an exercise in futility. A good
designer, professional or otherwise/homeowner, will take the time to
study the habits of the dogs over time. They tend to have very set
patterns of where they prefer to relieve themselves, patrol their
property, interact with passersby and if in a group environment,
play. Observing what those patterns are and adjusting the garden
design to accomodate these patterns is entirely possible. It is
exactly the same type of design consideration one would employ for any
other variable -- sun/shade, poor drainage, prevailing winds, privacy
screening, plant selection, etc.

And finally, there is the issue of a homeowner who cares more for the
dogs than he does his garden and really doesn't care what they do to
it. Unfortunately, those types of pet owners tend not to bother with
training their animals at all and you run the risk of those dogs
ruining any garden in the neighborhood they are allowed to visit. But
that's more the owners fault than it is the dogs. Dogs are entirely
trainable, if you bother to take the time, and can and do make
excellent garden companions.

On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 08:30:18 -0800 (PST), gardengal
wrote:

On Nov 28, 9:22*am, wrote:
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given writes:

"gardengal" wrote in message
On Nov 26, 4:15 pm, Balvenieman wrote:
Boo wrote:
I have recently had a problem with a large amount of dog mess in a
client's
garden and wonder if it is just something we have to put up with?

In my view, the presence of dogs in the garden is a clear
indication of their owner's regard for the garden as well as for the
person who tends it. It's time to move on and to be very clear about
your reasons for doing so.

What is this, the anti-dog forum?? Dogs and gardens can be perfectly
compatible

Not everybody loves dogs, get over it.

I'm interested in the subject. *One poster indicated that you just have
to train the dog. *Well, I don't understand how you train a dog not to
run. *With the design of a dogs foot, running is going to remove grass.
I'm guessing, dogs and gardens are compatible if the yard is big enough
or the dog is small enough.

Pretty much anywhere they run they are going to cause damage unless you
build a run and fence it in or leash the dog. *More details about how
people cope might be helpful to other posters.

As I've said, I've seen 3 labs turn a back yard into a moonscape pretty
quickly. A lab is pretty big and the yard in question is at least
25'x120'. *The owner would just let the dogs out when they wanted to go
out.

I'd suggest YOU get over it!

First, the issue is how to deal with the dogs that reside at the
property in question - this is not the OP's garden and there is no
option of excluding the dogs. They live there - he/she does not. It's
a matter of dealing with the poop issue or choosing not to - simple as
that.

Second, unless the dogs are still young and therefore still very
trainable, it is far easier to design and build a garden around them
and their habits, rather than attempting to retrain mature dogs to
follow the design. That's just an exercise in futility. A good
designer, professional or otherwise/homeowner, will take the time to
study the habits of the dogs over time. They tend to have very set
patterns of where they prefer to relieve themselves, patrol their
property, interact with passersby and if in a group environment,
play. Observing what those patterns are and adjusting the garden
design to accomodate these patterns is entirely possible. It is
exactly the same type of design consideration one would employ for any
other variable -- sun/shade, poor drainage, prevailing winds, privacy
screening, plant selection, etc.

And finally, there is the issue of a homeowner who cares more for the
dogs than he does his garden and really doesn't care what they do to
it. Unfortunately, those types of pet owners tend not to bother with
training their animals at all and you run the risk of those dogs
ruining any garden in the neighborhood they are allowed to visit. But
that's more the owners fault than it is the dogs. Dogs are entirely
trainable, if you bother to take the time, and can and do make
excellent garden companions.

Several years ago my dog tore his ACL and had to be on leash for 6
weeks. His favorite game was "throw the ball!" so I'd take him out on
the leash, weed and throw the weeds to his mouth. This game became his
second favorite. Weeds never made it to the compost pile after that
summer. Drove my mother nuts when she'd visit. She'd want her weeds
in a neat pile and he'd be barking at her - "throw the weed!"

I am one of those pet owners who cares more about my animals than the
gardens but you can have both. And a lawn too, if that's what you
want.

gardengal writes:

On Nov 28, 9:22*am, wrote:
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given writes:

"gardengal" wrote in message
On Nov 26, 4:15 pm, Balvenieman wrote:
Boo wrote:
I have recently had a problem with a large amount of dog mess in a
client's
garden and wonder if it is just something we have to put up with?

In my view, the presence of dogs in the garden is a clear
indication of their owner's regard for the garden as well as for the
person who tends it. It's time to move on and to be very clear about
your reasons for doing so.

What is this, the anti-dog forum?? Dogs and gardens can be perfectly
compatible

Not everybody loves dogs, get over it.
....
I'd suggest YOU get over it!

Uhh, thanks gardengal. Okay, I love dogs now.

First,

Oops, snipped the rest of your lengthy post where you told me and
everyone else, absolutely nothing about how to have a garden and
dogs at the same time. I think you forgot to include that part.

Here's a hint, "you need to train them" is not meaningful advice. Train
them to do what?

They smell, they're noisy, they're destructive, their poop
has the worst smell in the world, they'll hump anyone that comes in the
house, they like to eat their own poop and they
bite, often for no reason. But I like them. No really, they're great.

Wouldn't want to offend any overly sensitive dog lovers you know.

On Nov 30, 6:07*pm, wrote:
gardengal writes:
On Nov 28, 9:22*am, wrote:
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given writes:

"gardengal" wrote in message
On Nov 26, 4:15 pm, Balvenieman wrote:
Boo wrote:
I have recently had a problem with a large amount of dog mess in a
client's
garden and wonder if it is just something we have to put up with?

In my view, the presence of dogs in the garden is a clear
indication of their owner's regard for the garden as well as for the
person who tends it. It's time to move on and to be very clear about
your reasons for doing so.

What is this, the anti-dog forum?? Dogs and gardens can be perfectly
compatible

Not everybody loves dogs, get over it.
...
I'd suggest YOU get over it!

Uhh, thanks gardengal. *Okay, I love dogs now.

First,

Oops, snipped the rest of your lengthy post where you told me and
everyone else, absolutely nothing about how to have a garden and
dogs at the same time. *I think you forgot to include that part.

No I included it....maybe you just forgot to read it. Watch the dogs,
study their habits and patterns, then design the garden around these
patterns rather than forcing the dogs to adhere to some preconceived
notion of how the garden should be laid out.

Here's a hint, "you need to train them" is not meaningful advice. *Train
them to do what?

How 'bout training them not to dig or be destructive? Dogs that are
overly destructive and dig for no reason tend to be left too much to
their own devices - they dig because they are bored or do not receive
adequate human attention, which all dogs crave. If you just leave them
outdoors all day all by themselves, of course they will find mischief
to get into. You can also train them to relieve themselves in
appropriate, out of the way locations, not on the neighbor's property
or in the middle of your front yard. But then, this is something
responsible dog owners are already aware of.

They smell, they're noisy, they're destructive, their poop
has the worst smell in the world, they'll hump anyone that comes in the
house, they like to eat their own poop and they
bite, often for no reason. *But I like them. *No really, they're great.

despen@ wrote

Uhh, thanks gardengal. Okay, I love dogs now.

LOL!

Here's a hint, "you need to train them" is not meaningful advice. Train
them to do what?

Given a choice, most dogs will poop where there's a little cover. They also
prefer to pee on things upright like trees, fences (especially ones with
neighbor dogs on the other side) etc.

Wouldn't want to offend any overly sensitive dog lovers you know.

Grin, you just aren't a dog person. Thats ok!

I have a dog and a cat, living in sin and sleeping together. The dog doesnt
bite but if the cat likes you, she gives lovey-knarfs (no skin broken).

I adapted well to the dog (Cash-pup is from the rescue society) and it didnt
take long to discover he selected a favorite spot in general for his
business that needs scouping. It's the closest to one with a shrub over it
(a short tree, about 6ft and spready with white flowers).

"cshenk" writes:

despen@ wrote

Uhh, thanks gardengal. Okay, I love dogs now.

LOL!

Here's a hint, "you need to train them" is not meaningful advice. Train
them to do what?

Given a choice, most dogs will poop where there's a little cover.
They also prefer to pee on things upright like trees, fences
(especially ones with neighbor dogs on the other side) etc.

Wouldn't want to offend any overly sensitive dog lovers you know.

Grin, you just aren't a dog person. Thats ok!

Thanks! I feel much better now.

I have a dog and a cat, living in sin and sleeping together. The dog
doesnt bite but if the cat likes you, she gives lovey-knarfs (no skin
broken).

Our cat of 18 years just died a couple of months ago.
Speaking of animals that bite, this cat put some serious hurt on me.
I learned pretty quick not to play that way with her.

Despite the bites, she was great and we all miss her.

Reading your response and gardengal, I think I'm beginning to
understand. My friend with the moonscape yard just lets the dogs out
when they want to go out, and they're unsupervised most of the time. I
don't think that's compatible with a good garden. If you just let them
run wild in a small yard they're going to destroy it.

What I wasn't getting is that I thought big dogs have to run or they
won't be healthy. I guess if you want them to get exercise you have to
bring them somewhere else.

Gosh, haven't I opened a can of worms.
The fact remains that either you can ignore the ghastly side of pets, poo, wee, sick, unidentified bits of prey, other people's pets hanging about, enormous vet bills, inconsolable loss when they depart.....

Or you can't. It really isn't worth arguing about, you know.

Now, what really, really annoys me, is when the daffodils come out before Christmas....

despen@ wrote
"cshenk" writes:

Here's a hint, "you need to train them" is not meaningful advice. Train
them to do what?

Given a choice, most dogs will poop where there's a little cover.
They also prefer to pee on things upright like trees, fences
(especially ones with neighbor dogs on the other side) etc.

Wouldn't want to offend any overly sensitive dog lovers you know.

Grin, you just aren't a dog person. Thats ok!

Thanks! I feel much better now.

Hehe It's OK! My husband had Dogs all his life until he joined the miliary.
Me, I always wanted one but the only one we had when i was a kid was a lab
that was sweet natured but grew bigger than most and could put her paws on
my 6'4" brother's shoulders and reach down to like his head when she was 6
months old (Momma was a pure-breed, daddy was a tall fence jumper). Peggy
would have fit the yard had she been normal sized but Mom found her a new
home on a 15 acre farm. I cried alot when I let her go but the yard was
cool and lots of room for Peggy. I was about 13.

I have a dog and a cat, living in sin and sleeping together. The dog
doesnt bite but if the cat likes you, she gives lovey-knarfs (no skin
broken).

Our cat of 18 years just died a couple of months ago.
Speaking of animals that bite, this cat put some serious hurt on me.
I learned pretty quick not to play that way with her.

I really catch that one! Had cats last 30 years. Husband 'learned' cats.
He'll still be settin' there on the sofa and growling 'damn cat' while
petting one and getting knarfed. He's dealt now with several semi-ferals so
knows how to deal with it.

Despite the bites, she was great and we all miss her.

Grin, understood.

Reading your response and gardengal, I think I'm beginning to
understand. My friend with the moonscape yard just lets the dogs out
when they want to go out, and they're unsupervised most of the time. I
don't think that's compatible with a good garden. If you just let them
run wild in a small yard they're going to destroy it.

Um, yeah. Destruction potential there. Also, some breeds of dogs tend more
to 'digging' than others. I can let Cash out and play with him and have him
try to get *me* to play 'Mom, lets dig'. Doesnt work, but he aint a bored
pup when he does it. It is his nature, and we distract him to make it all
sane.

Training here, he has one patch we let him dig in. He knows no other is
allwed and *mostly* sticks to that. We backfill it with dirt as needed.
Grin, both happy.

What I wasn't getting is that I thought big dogs have to run or they
won't be healthy. I guess if you want them to get exercise you have to
bring them somewhere else.

True. In my case, Cash-pup is a perfect pick. See, he was apparently
stolen from loving owners (we suspect a black family as he *loves* black
people, and stolen by someone who looks a bit mexican as he growls at such
and we have to make sure he doesnt bother them if the come to the door).
Anyway, I make pretty good money so adopted the 'unadoptable' dog with heart
worms and turned down several times by the SPCA for neutering due to health.
He's not *allowed* per vets to 'run' more than 1/2 mile and at that, has to
be human speed. Up to 2 mile walks now alowed.

Cash-pup has a life expectancy of 5 years, 7 best. He's 3 by vet
estimation. I will enjoy all the years we have and yes, i knew this all
when we adopted him. So, color me 'dog lover' (grin).

Personal opinion? A gardener who can't handle a little poop would be
replaced by one who could.

Personal opinion? A gardener who can't handle a little poop would be
replaced by one who could.[/quote]

Don't make it sound as if it doesn't matter. It's my original question!!!

I am not interested in whether dogs and gardens are compatible, that is not the question. What's more, I am not a dog hater, I have had several dogs myself.

I am perfectly happy to be replaced. In fact, I am such a good gardener I have a waiting list. However, I wanted opinions of other jobbing gardeners (look it up). The point is, it is not 'a little poop', there can be as many as ten poops in an area 20 m by 15 m. Surely you don't think this is normal? Yuk, I wouldn't want to have Pimms on your patio.

Replies from jobbing gardeners only please.

"Boo" wrote

Personal opinion? A gardener who can't handle a little poop would be
replaced by one who could.

can be as many as ten poops in an area 20 m by 15 m. Surely you don't
think this is normal? Yuk, I wouldn't want to have Pimms on your patio.

Dude, thats over 60x45 feet and 10 poops? We are talking 2700 square feet.
Any gardener who cant handle that, would be fired for *cause*.