If there is one thing I have a lot of, it's decomposing leaf litter
(aside from shade and pine straw).

I've never thought of using this as a mulch (I'm more concerned with
moisture retention than weed blocking). Now, I wonder if this may be a
good thing for some plants and perhaps because of the micro-organisms in
that, not so good for others.

There are a *lot* of earthworms in there. I was thinking maybe the
tomatoes and peppers, and not the cucurbits. Current strategy has been
cedar mix mulch. My impression is that newspaper much is more for weeds
than water retention, am I wrong?

Jeff

In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

If there is one thing I have a lot of, it's decomposing leaf litter
(aside from shade and pine straw).

I've never thought of using this as a mulch (I'm more concerned with
moisture retention than weed blocking). Now, I wonder if this may be a
good thing for some plants and perhaps because of the micro-organisms in
that, not so good for others.

There are a *lot* of earthworms in there. I was thinking maybe the
tomatoes and peppers, and not the cucurbits. Current strategy has been
cedar mix mulch. My impression is that newspaper much is more for weeds
than water retention, am I wrong?

Jeff


Jeff if you want you can E mail me at .

Charlie, Billy and I kibitz exchanging a Jpg or tune at times. I cc my
kids sometimes too. I will send a message out to those guys and they
may decide to interact.

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden
What use one more wake up call?

http://www.thesunmagazine.org/ many stars

In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

If there is one thing I have a lot of, it's decomposing leaf litter
(aside from shade and pine straw).

I've never thought of using this as a mulch (I'm more concerned with
moisture retention than weed blocking). Now, I wonder if this may be a
good thing for some plants and perhaps because of the micro-organisms in
that, not so good for others.

There are a *lot* of earthworms in there. I was thinking maybe the
tomatoes and peppers, and not the cucurbits. Current strategy has been
cedar mix mulch. My impression is that newspaper much is more for weeds
than water retention, am I wrong?

Jeff

They are both potential carbon sources, and blockers of sunlight and
wind. The problem is that wood often contains potentially fungitoxic
compounds. The most toxic of these are the thujaplicins which are
particularly abundant in cedarwood, making this a naturally
decay-resistant wood for high-quality garden furnishings, etc. Because
cedar is decay resistant, its carbon isn't readily available to
decomposers, and ultimately the plants.
http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research...iology/woodrot
s.htm

Any mulch, be it cedar, straw, newspapers, or plastic will block
sunlight, there by suppressing weeds, and help retain water by blocking
the sunlight that will warm the water to vapor temp., and blocking the
wind, which would increases evaporation.

An important thing to remember is that the soil microbes need carbon and
nitrogen. Carbon should be paired up with a nitrogen source for a C/N
ratio of 25 (25/1) for assimilation by microbes. Remember that it is the
life and death cycles of the microbes that organic gardeners count on to
feed their plants and give tilth to the soil (increases water holding
capacity). The nutrients will be bound by humus and clay in the soil,
and released as the plants need them.

Possible mulch or composting materials

Alder or ash leaves ............................ 25

Grass clippings ................................ 25

Leguminous plants (peas,
beans,soybeans) ............................. 15

Manure with bedding ........................... 23

Manure ....................................... 15

Oak leaves .................................... 50

Pine needles .............................. 60-100

Sawdust.................................... 150-500

Straw, cornstalks and cobs .................. 50-100

Vegetable trimmings ........................... 25
----

Alfalfa ....................................... 12

Aged Chicken Manure**........................* 7

Newspaper..................................... 175

I use the last three for my lasagna gardening (a.k.a. sheet mulching)
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

If there is one thing I have a lot of, it's decomposing leaf litter
(aside from shade and pine straw).

I've never thought of using this as a mulch (I'm more concerned with
moisture retention than weed blocking). Now, I wonder if this may be a
good thing for some plants and perhaps because of the micro-organisms in
that, not so good for others.

There are a *lot* of earthworms in there. I was thinking maybe the
tomatoes and peppers, and not the cucurbits. Current strategy has been
cedar mix mulch. My impression is that newspaper much is more for weeds
than water retention, am I wrong?

Jeff

They are both potential carbon sources, and blockers of sunlight and
wind. The problem is that wood often contains potentially fungitoxic
compounds. The most toxic of these are the thujaplicins which are
particularly abundant in cedarwood, making this a naturally
decay-resistant wood for high-quality garden furnishings, etc. Because
cedar is decay resistant, its carbon isn't readily available to
decomposers, and ultimately the plants.
http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research...iology/woodrot
s.htm

Any mulch, be it cedar, straw, newspapers, or plastic will block
sunlight, there by suppressing weeds, and help retain water by blocking
the sunlight that will warm the water to vapor temp., and blocking the
wind, which would increases evaporation.

An important thing to remember is that the soil microbes need carbon and
nitrogen. Carbon should be paired up with a nitrogen source for a C/N
ratio of 25 (25/1) for assimilation by microbes. Remember that it is the
life and death cycles of the microbes that organic gardeners count on to
feed their plants and give tilth to the soil (increases water holding
capacity). The nutrients will be bound by humus and clay in the soil,
and released as the plants need them.


OK. It looks to me that leaf litter can potentially have a very high C/N
ratio.

something he
http://www.limnetica.com/Limnetica/L...9-pag65-70.pdf

It looks like hardwoods have a higher ratio.

So, what I'm thinking, and perhaps lasagna gardening does this, is to
buffer or average the C/N ratio. It looks to me that all those pine
needles are out, although it was all the white fungi that worried me and
not the C/N.

Thanks, I have a good start on this now. I see the benefit of alfalfa
also. I have been mixing in bagged cow manure with decomposed leaf
litter, that looks like a balance there.

Jeff

Possible mulch or composting materials

Alder or ash leaves ............................ 25

Grass clippings ................................ 25

Leguminous plants (peas,
beans,soybeans) ............................. 15

Manure with bedding ........................... 23

Manure ....................................... 15

Oak leaves .................................... 50

Pine needles .............................. 60-100

Sawdust.................................... 150-500

Straw, cornstalks and cobs .................. 50-100

Vegetable trimmings ........................... 25
----

Alfalfa ....................................... 12

Aged Chicken Manure ........................ 7

Newspaper..................................... 175

I use the last three for my lasagna gardening (a.k.a. sheet mulching)

In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

As you can see, alder or ash leaves are ideal, pine needles, not so much.

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

If there is one thing I have a lot of, it's decomposing leaf litter
(aside from shade and pine straw).

I've never thought of using this as a mulch (I'm more concerned with
moisture retention than weed blocking). Now, I wonder if this may be a
good thing for some plants and perhaps because of the micro-organisms in
that, not so good for others.

There are a *lot* of earthworms in there. I was thinking maybe the
tomatoes and peppers, and not the cucurbits. Current strategy has been
cedar mix mulch. My impression is that newspaper much is more for weeds
than water retention, am I wrong?

Jeff

They are both potential carbon sources, and blockers of sunlight and
wind. The problem is that wood often contains potentially fungitoxic
compounds. The most toxic of these are the thujaplicins which are
particularly abundant in cedarwood, making this a naturally
decay-resistant wood for high-quality garden furnishings, etc. Because
cedar is decay resistant, its carbon isn't readily available to
decomposers, and ultimately the plants.
http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research...iology/woodrot
s.htm

Any mulch, be it cedar, straw, newspapers, or plastic will block
sunlight, there by suppressing weeds, and help retain water by blocking
the sunlight that will warm the water to vapor temp., and blocking the
wind, which would increases evaporation.

An important thing to remember is that the soil microbes need carbon and
nitrogen. Carbon should be paired up with a nitrogen source for a C/N
ratio of 25 (25/1) for assimilation by microbes. Remember that it is the
life and death cycles of the microbes that organic gardeners count on to
feed their plants and give tilth to the soil (increases water holding
capacity). The nutrients will be bound by humus and clay in the soil,
and released as the plants need them.


OK. It looks to me that leaf litter can potentially have a very high C/N
ratio.

something he
http://www.limnetica.com/Limnetica/L...%29-pag65-70.p
df

I don't know what's going on here. I do know that the head waters are in
the Pyrenees, and are freakin' cold, and the Garonne River is only
slightly less green than the Garonne Vally (low oxygen is my guess).
These could account for the similarity in the decomposition rates.


It looks like hardwoods have a higher ratio.

So, what I'm thinking, and perhaps lasagna gardening does this, is to
buffer or average the C/N ratio. It looks to me that all those pine
needles are out, although it was all the white fungi that worried me and
not the C/N.

Thanks, I have a good start on this now. I see the benefit of alfalfa
also. I have been mixing in bagged cow manure with decomposed leaf
litter, that looks like a balance there.

Jeff

Possible mulch or composting materials

Alder or ash leaves ............................ 25

Grass clippings ................................ 25

Leguminous plants (peas,
beans,soybeans) ............................. 15

Manure with bedding ........................... 23

Manure ....................................... 15

Oak leaves .................................... 50

Pine needles .............................. 60-100

Sawdust.................................... 150-500

Straw, cornstalks and cobs .................. 50-100

Vegetable trimmings ........................... 25
----

Alfalfa ....................................... 12

Aged Chicken Manure ........................ 7

Newspaper..................................... 175

I use the last three for my lasagna gardening (a.k.a. sheet mulching)
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

As you can see, alder or ash leaves are ideal, pine needles, not so much.

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

If there is one thing I have a lot of, it's decomposing leaf litter
(aside from shade and pine straw).

I've never thought of using this as a mulch (I'm more concerned with
moisture retention than weed blocking). Now, I wonder if this may be a
good thing for some plants and perhaps because of the micro-organisms in
that, not so good for others.

There are a *lot* of earthworms in there. I was thinking maybe the
tomatoes and peppers, and not the cucurbits. Current strategy has been
cedar mix mulch. My impression is that newspaper much is more for weeds
than water retention, am I wrong?

Jeff
They are both potential carbon sources, and blockers of sunlight and
wind. The problem is that wood often contains potentially fungitoxic
compounds. The most toxic of these are the thujaplicins which are
particularly abundant in cedarwood, making this a naturally
decay-resistant wood for high-quality garden furnishings, etc. Because
cedar is decay resistant, its carbon isn't readily available to
decomposers, and ultimately the plants.
http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research...iology/woodrot
s.htm

Any mulch, be it cedar, straw, newspapers, or plastic will block
sunlight, there by suppressing weeds, and help retain water by blocking
the sunlight that will warm the water to vapor temp., and blocking the
wind, which would increases evaporation.

An important thing to remember is that the soil microbes need carbon and
nitrogen. Carbon should be paired up with a nitrogen source for a C/N
ratio of 25 (25/1) for assimilation by microbes. Remember that it is the
life and death cycles of the microbes that organic gardeners count on to
feed their plants and give tilth to the soil (increases water holding
capacity). The nutrients will be bound by humus and clay in the soil,
and released as the plants need them.

OK. It looks to me that leaf litter can potentially have a very high C/N
ratio.

something he
http://www.limnetica.com/Limnetica/L...%29-pag65-70.p
df

I don't know what's going on here. I do know that the head waters are in
the Pyrenees, and are freakin' cold, and the Garonne River is only
slightly less green than the Garonne Vally (low oxygen is my guess).
These could account for the similarity in the decomposition rates.


Oh, I didn't know where they were! I see now that it is in southern
France. It was just the best I could find and read (a lot of abstracts
are without articles). At least I've got some idea of how this works and
I can see why pumping in Nitrogen from fish oil or chicken manure is so
good, we are awash in carbon.

At any rate, it is something about which, I had no idea. I think I'll
restart the compost pile and mix in weeds from the abandoned lot (and my
yard). I've been pulling up poke salad from there today.

Jeff

It looks like hardwoods have a higher ratio.

So, what I'm thinking, and perhaps lasagna gardening does this, is to
buffer or average the C/N ratio. It looks to me that all those pine
needles are out, although it was all the white fungi that worried me and
not the C/N.

Thanks, I have a good start on this now. I see the benefit of alfalfa
also. I have been mixing in bagged cow manure with decomposed leaf
litter, that looks like a balance there.

Jeff
Possible mulch or composting materials

Alder or ash leaves ............................ 25

Grass clippings ................................ 25

Leguminous plants (peas,
beans,soybeans) ............................. 15

Manure with bedding ........................... 23

Manure ....................................... 15

Oak leaves .................................... 50

Pine needles .............................. 60-100

Sawdust.................................... 150-500

Straw, cornstalks and cobs .................. 50-100

Vegetable trimmings ........................... 25
----

Alfalfa ....................................... 12

Aged Chicken Manure ........................ 7

Newspaper..................................... 175

I use the last three for my lasagna gardening (a.k.a. sheet mulching)

On 5/11/10 9:15 AM, Jeff Thies wrote:
If there is one thing I have a lot of, it's decomposing leaf litter
(aside from shade and pine straw).

I've never thought of using this as a mulch (I'm more concerned with
moisture retention than weed blocking). Now, I wonder if this may be a
good thing for some plants and perhaps because of the micro-organisms in
that, not so good for others.

There are a *lot* of earthworms in there. I was thinking maybe the
tomatoes and peppers, and not the cucurbits. Current strategy has been
cedar mix mulch. My impression is that newspaper much is more for weeds
than water retention, am I wrong?

Jeff

Except where I have substantial of ground cover, I mulch all my beds
with leaf litter. I let the peach leaves stay where they fall. In the
fall, I move ash, oak, zelkova, and liquidambar leaves to form a mulch
about 2-3 inches thick. After mulching, I lay thin branches over the
leaves to hold them in place. The primary purpose is to keep the soil
cool and moist in the summer, our rainy season being in the winter. It
also reduces -- but does not eliminate -- weeds. This mulch is renewed
every fall.

My oak gets extra mulch. It's a valley white oak (Quercus lobata) and
really needs a thick leaf mulch across its root zone. Because of winds,
I laid chicken wire over the mulch and anchored it at the edges.

My camellia bed is mulched with the output of my office shredder. The
paper tends to tie up nutrients, which is okay since camellias prefer a
lean (low-nutrient) soil.

Excess leaves are added to my compost pile, which is actually mostly
leaf mold. This is slightly acidic, which is great on my alkaline soil.

I get even more leaves than I can use for mulch or compost. The rest
goes to the county's composting project.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary