Hello,

The soil in our yard appears to need nitrogen and calcium. The stuff
I've read, and the advice I've been told, says to add soil amendments.

How?

Okay. I'm far from an expert. Let's start at the beginning.

If I add something like dolomite (for calcium), I'm told that will
kill microinvertebrates and make the lawn dependent on chemical
fertilizers indefinitely. I don't want that!

So let's add compost. But, in order to add enough calcium in compost
form, I'd have to add several inches (in vertical depth) of of
compost. That would smother the lawn. Nope. Not gonna do it. I
don't want to re-plant the lawn.

Obviously I can't believe everything I hear or read.

What do you suggest?

Thank you.

Ted Shoemaker

Ted Shoemaker wrote:
Hello,

The soil in our yard appears to need nitrogen and calcium. The stuff
I've read, and the advice I've been told, says to add soil amendments.

How?

Okay. I'm far from an expert. Let's start at the beginning.

If I add something like dolomite (for calcium), I'm told that will
kill microinvertebrates and make the lawn dependent on chemical
fertilizers indefinitely. I don't want that!

Who told you that? I've never heard such a thing.

Ted Shoemaker wrote:
Hello,

The soil in our yard appears to need nitrogen and calcium. The stuff
I've read, and the advice I've been told, says to add soil amendments.


How do you know this?

How?

Okay. I'm far from an expert. Let's start at the beginning.

If I add something like dolomite (for calcium), I'm told that will
kill microinvertebrates and make the lawn dependent on chemical
fertilizers indefinitely. I don't want that!

Firstly don't add dolomite to improve just calcium, it contains calcium and
magnesium which need to be kept in balance. Generally dolomite is used
where both calcium and magnesium are required and to change the balance
towards magnesium. Instead add garden lime (calcium carbonate) if you want
to raise the pH or gypsum (calcium sulphate) if you don't want to change the
pH. All these are natural minerals which have been used by gardeners for
centuries.

Secondly the microflora will not be killed by adding any of these is
sensible quantities. Yes you could cause damage by changing the pH very
quickly by adding something like builder's lime (calcium hydroxide) but you
don't want to do that. Adding reasonable amounts of dolomite or garden lime
will not make your lawn dependent on chemicals. I don't know where this
idea of dependency comes from.

Nitrogen can be added in many ways, I prefer bird manure (pelletised chicken
manure is commonly available) but synthetic fertilisers will do the job
without causing the last trumpet to sound. Be warned that synthetics are
more concentrated and so can be over done easily and nitrogen compounds
leach out quickly if the soil structure is poor. This will waste your money
and pollute the nearby waterways.


So let's add compost. But, in order to add enough calcium in compost
form, I'd have to add several inches (in vertical depth) of of
compost. That would smother the lawn. Nope. Not gonna do it. I
don't want to re-plant the lawn.


Compost is good for depleted soil for many reasons but it will not increase
calcium very much if at all.

Obviously I can't believe everything I hear or read.

What do you suggest?

Thank you.


Ted where did you get this information? Have you tested the pH? If not do
so before you act.

David

David Hare-Scott wrote:
Ted Shoemaker wrote:
....
So let's add compost. But, in order to add enough calcium in compost
form, I'd have to add several inches (in vertical depth) of of
compost. That would smother the lawn. Nope. Not gonna do it. I
don't want to re-plant the lawn.


Compost is good for depleted soil for many reasons but it will not increase
calcium very much if at all.

if you add enough to improve the habitat for
worms they will increase calcium levels. worms
do secrete calcium.

also many plants do have calcium, that doesn't
disappear when compost is made (or if it does
where does it go?).

just be careful as adding too much compost all
at once will likely encourage fungal diseases (
if you smother the grass).


Obviously I can't believe everything I hear or read.

What do you suggest?

Thank you.


Ted where did you get this information? Have you tested the pH? If not do
so before you act.

agreed.

but really, it makes more sense to plant grasses
or add other plants to the mix that will tolerate
existing conditions. leave the amendments and
compost for the garden beds that you want to alter
to fit specific crops (much smaller areas, less
expensive, etc.).


songbird

songbird wrote:
David Hare-Scott wrote:
Ted Shoemaker wrote:
...
So let's add compost. But, in order to add enough calcium in
compost form, I'd have to add several inches (in vertical depth) of
of compost. That would smother the lawn. Nope. Not gonna do it.
I don't want to re-plant the lawn.


Compost is good for depleted soil for many reasons but it will not
increase calcium very much if at all.

if you add enough to improve the habitat for
worms they will increase calcium levels. worms
do secrete calcium.


The worms will just recycle the calcium already in the environment so this
would have no net effect.

also many plants do have calcium, that doesn't
disappear when compost is made (or if it does
where does it go?).


All plants have calcium (but not much) and it doesn't go away when they die
or are composted (unlike nitrogen). However this is a very inefficient way
to add calcium to your soil, especially if the compost came from your
calcium depleted soil in the first place.

just be careful as adding too much compost all
at once will likely encourage fungal diseases (
if you smother the grass).


Obviously I can't believe everything I hear or read.

What do you suggest?

Thank you.


Ted where did you get this information? Have you tested the pH? If
not do so before you act.

agreed.

but really, it makes more sense to plant grasses
or add other plants to the mix that will tolerate
existing conditions. leave the amendments and
compost for the garden beds that you want to alter
to fit specific crops (much smaller areas, less
expensive, etc.).


songbird

This is an option but if liming is suitable in the situation it is not
difficult nor particularly expensive.

David

David Hare-Scott wrote:
songbird wrote:
David Hare-Scott wrote:
Ted Shoemaker wrote:
...
So let's add compost. But, in order to add enough calcium in
compost form, I'd have to add several inches (in vertical depth) of
of compost. That would smother the lawn. Nope. Not gonna do it.
I don't want to re-plant the lawn.


Compost is good for depleted soil for many reasons but it will not
increase calcium very much if at all.

if you add enough to improve the habitat for
worms they will increase calcium levels. worms
do secrete calcium.


The worms will just recycle the calcium already in the environment so this
would have no net effect.

no net effect if you are looking at it
from a physical/chemical component level.
i think that differs if you look at it
from a nutrient tied up in certain forms
level and how the worms actually ingest
and alter the soil they ingest.

if a worm ingests a calciferous fragment
they will grind it in their gizzard along
with everything else they ingest. add to
that secreted calcium. i think all of
these things would increase available
calcium in the soil (which is what is more
important to plants than calcium levels
tied up in forms that aren't very
accessible).

wish i had a lab set up for this sort
of thing as i think the experiments would
be interesting in and of themselves.


also many plants do have calcium, that doesn't
disappear when compost is made (or if it does
where does it go?).


All plants have calcium (but not much) and it doesn't go away when they die
or are composted (unlike nitrogen). However this is a very inefficient way
to add calcium to your soil, especially if the compost came from your
calcium depleted soil in the first place.

i suspect the original poster is talking
about adding additional compost from another
source.


just be careful as adding too much compost all
at once will likely encourage fungal diseases (
if you smother the grass).


Obviously I can't believe everything I hear or read.

What do you suggest?

Thank you.


Ted where did you get this information? Have you tested the pH? If
not do so before you act.

agreed.

but really, it makes more sense to plant grasses
or add other plants to the mix that will tolerate
existing conditions. leave the amendments and
compost for the garden beds that you want to alter
to fit specific crops (much smaller areas, less
expensive, etc.).

This is an option but if liming is suitable in the situation it is not
difficult nor particularly expensive.

also true, but i'm not a big fan of encouraging
lawns to grow even more so they need to be mowed
more often, etc.


songbird

In article ,
songbird wrote:

calciferous fragment? ;o)

Worms can cycle the calcium in an environment, but they can't add to it
by their presence. You need a source like dead (preferably;O) animals,
limestone, or egg shells.

I think worms are big into leaves, forest litter, and mulch.




The World Without Us by Alan Weisman (Jul 10, 2007)

http://www.amazon.com/World-Without-...1C2E0QK/ref=sr
_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1300338811&sr=1-1

You'll like it.
--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI
http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2011/3/7/michael_moore
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZkDikRLQrw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyE5wjc4XOw

On Mar 16, 6:43*pm, songbird wrote:


**worms do secrete calcium.

The worms will just recycle the calcium already in the environment so this
would have no net effect.


* if a worm ingests a calciferous fragment
they will grind it in their gizzard along
with everything else they ingest. *add to
that secreted calcium. *i think all of
these things would increase available
calcium in the soil (which is what is more
important to plants than calcium levels
tied up in forms that aren't very
accessible).


Songbird, below info may help clarify:

http://cronodon.com/BioTech/Earthworm_nutrition.html

“It was originally thought that the calciferous glands excrete excess
calcium, since earthworms living in calcareous
soils ingest huge amounts of calcium carbonate (limestone/chalk) -
sometimes too much to digest and absorb and
so it is presumed that they must rid themselves of excess calcium.
However, whether or not an earthworm lives in
calcium-rich soil does not seem to correlate with calciferous gland
function. The glands have been shown to
contain large amounts of the enzyme carbonic anhydrase, which fixes
carbon dioxide gas by reacting it with
calcium to produce calcium carbonate. Carbon dioxide is generated by
respiration within the earthworm and must
be excreted since it is acidic. Experimental removal of the
calciferous glands has been shown to result in
increased acidity (lowering of pH) in the earthworm's coelomic fluid.
This suggests that these glands have an
important role in acidity (pH) regulation. All organisms function best
within a certain pH range and the body must
be maintained within this (often very narrow) range. The calcium
carbonate excreted by these glands may be so
abundant as to form crystals or concretions that pass out with the
worm's faeces (or casts). Perhaps in winter
these glands are not required as much, since the respiration rates of
earthworms may drop with a fall in
temperature. Calcium excretion may also help to neutralise the humic
acids in the ingested soil.”

"Ted Shoemaker" wrote in message
...
Hello,

The soil in our yard appears to need nitrogen

a fairly simple solution, but one that is long term, to get nitrogen fixed
in your lawn is through adding clovers. Try oversowing the lawn with a
clover mix in autumn.

rob

In article
,
Ted Shoemaker wrote:

Hello,

The soil in our yard appears to need nitrogen and calcium. The stuff
I've read, and the advice I've been told, says to add soil amendments.

How?

Okay. I'm far from an expert. Let's start at the beginning.

If I add something like dolomite (for calcium), I'm told that will
kill microinvertebrates and make the lawn dependent on chemical
fertilizers indefinitely. I don't want that!

So let's add compost. But, in order to add enough calcium in compost
form, I'd have to add several inches (in vertical depth) of of
compost. That would smother the lawn. Nope. Not gonna do it. I
don't want to re-plant the lawn.

Obviously I can't believe everything I hear or read.

What do you suggest?

Thank you.

Ted Shoemaker

Add pulverized egg shells (put in blender with some water) to your lawn.
Egg shells breakdown slowly, so you won't get a quick response, but they
will break down eventually.
--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI
http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2011/3/7/michael_moore
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZkDikRLQrw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyE5wjc4XOw

Billy wrote:

Add pulverized egg shells (put in blender with some water) to your
lawn. Egg shells breakdown slowly, so you won't get a quick response,
but they will break down eventually.


Get serious. Ted already has enough goofy advice. If the lawn is no
bigger than 3m square and he has 5 years to wait this is a good idea.

David

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

Billy wrote:

Add pulverized egg shells (put in blender with some water) to your
lawn. Egg shells breakdown slowly, so you won't get a quick response,
but they will break down eventually.


Get serious. Ted already has enough goofy advice. If the lawn is no
bigger than 3m square and he has 5 years to wait this is a good idea.

David

Explain your goofy response.
--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI
http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2011/3/7/michael_moore
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZkDikRLQrw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyE5wjc4XOw

Billy wrote:
In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

Billy wrote:

Add pulverized egg shells (put in blender with some water) to your
lawn. Egg shells breakdown slowly, so you won't get a quick
response, but they will break down eventually.


Get serious. Ted already has enough goofy advice. If the lawn is
no bigger than 3m square and he has 5 years to wait this is a good
idea.

David

Explain your goofy response.

I appreciate your aim of re-use and recycle but in this case it isn't
practical.

How many eggs do you have to eat to get enough shell to spread on a yard?
Sure it depends on the size of the yard but we are talking about some kilos
of egg shell.

How fine can you grind it? Not very fine without a mill. Fine garden lime
or gypsum will take months to work, ground shell will be much coarser and
take years.


David

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
Billy wrote:
In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

Billy wrote:

Add pulverized egg shells (put in blender with some water) to your
lawn. Egg shells breakdown slowly, so you won't get a quick
response, but they will break down eventually.


Get serious. Ted already has enough goofy advice. If the lawn is
no bigger than 3m square and he has 5 years to wait this is a good
idea.

David

Explain your goofy response.

I appreciate your aim of re-use and recycle but in this case it isn't
practical.

How many eggs do you have to eat to get enough shell to spread on a yard?
Sure it depends on the size of the yard but we are talking about some
kilos of egg shell.

How fine can you grind it? Not very fine without a mill. Fine garden
lime or gypsum will take months to work, ground shell will be much coarser
and take years.

IMO, if the OP wants to add calcium, all he/she needs to do is to just find
someone who still has a wood burning fireplace/heater, then s/he could just
spread the seived ash which contains calcium. It should be spread thinly
like icing sugar (confectioner's sugar in USian) on the top of a Victoria
Sponge cake.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_ash

For nitrogen I'd spread 'your friend and mine' - good old blood and bone.

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

Billy wrote:

Add pulverized egg shells (put in blender with some water) to your
lawn. Egg shells breakdown slowly, so you won't get a quick
response, but they will break down eventually.


Get serious. Ted already has enough goofy advice. If the lawn is
no bigger than 3m square and he has 5 years to wait this is a good
idea.

David

Explain your goofy response.

I appreciate your aim of re-use and recycle but in this case it isn't
practical.

How many eggs do you have to eat to get enough shell to spread on a yard?
It's a long term thing, you have to like eggs (maybe your friends or
neighbors will help out), and hopefully they are pastured egg shells
(the eggs will be better for you). It's what I do.

Obviously, if your in a rush and have money to burn, I'd probably do
rock phosphate at 50 lbs.(24 kg) per 1000 sq. ft.(100 sq. m.), unless
you wanted to adjust the pH upwards.

Sure it depends on the size of the yard but we are talking about some kilos
of egg shell.

How fine can you grind it?
I don't care. Sometimes I just crush it with my hands and toss them into
the beds. I've had time. Hopefully, I'll have more. And the shells
disappear, eventually. It's gardening;O)

Not very fine without a mill. Fine garden lime
or gypsum will take months to work, ground shell will be much coarser and
take years.
So?



David
--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI
http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2011/3/7/michael_moore
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZkDikRLQrw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyE5wjc4XOw