In article ,
Bill who putters wrote:

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

FarmI wrote:
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
Billy wrote:
In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

Billy wrote:

Add pulverized egg shells (put in blender with some water) to your
lawn. Egg shells breakdown slowly, so you won't get a quick
response, but they will break down eventually.


Get serious. Ted already has enough goofy advice. If the lawn is
no bigger than 3m square and he has 5 years to wait this is a good
idea.

David

Explain your goofy response.

I appreciate your aim of re-use and recycle but in this case it isn't
practical.

How many eggs do you have to eat to get enough shell to spread on a
yard? Sure it depends on the size of the yard but we are talking
about some kilos of egg shell.

How fine can you grind it? Not very fine without a mill. Fine
garden lime or gypsum will take months to work, ground shell will be
much coarser and take years.

IMO, if the OP wants to add calcium, all he/she needs to do is to
just find someone who still has a wood burning fireplace/heater, then
s/he could just spread the seived ash which contains calcium. It
should be spread thinly like icing sugar (confectioner's sugar in
USian) on the top of a Victoria Sponge cake.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_ash


OK if the pH needs to be raised. As you say use it sparingly as it is
quite
alkaline and some of the alkaliine stuff (the potassium salts) are soluble
and so fast acting. For a novice there are safer alternatives.

For nitrogen I'd spread 'your friend and mine' - good old blood and
bone.

Blood and bone would be fine.

David

Have not followed the treads but assume green manure has been
mentioned. Blood and bone is expensive I use as a special treat for
bulbs.

I'm not sure that in one season that pulses would add enough nitrogen
for tomatoes, peppers, or corn.
--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI
http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2011/3/7/michael_moore
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZkDikRLQrw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyE5wjc4XOw

"Billy" wrote in message
In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:


For nitrogen I'd spread 'your friend and mine' - good old blood and bone.

And you get this from where?, he said with reservations.

I have no idea since I don't live in the US. If I did, I suspect I'd be
looking for it under a different name, like blood meal or bone meal or
somesuch.

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Billy wrote:

How many eggs do you have to eat to get enough shell to spread on a
yard?
It's a long term thing, you have to like eggs (maybe your friends or
neighbors will help out), and hopefully they are pastured egg shells
(the eggs will be better for you). It's what I do.

Obviously, if your in a rush and have money to burn, I'd probably do
rock phosphate at 50 lbs.(24 kg) per 1000 sq. ft.(100 sq. m.), unless
you wanted to adjust the pH upwards.

Bone meal would probably be the quickest, without changing the pH.

Sheesh! I just wasted some time typing a response.

In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:


For nitrogen I'd spread 'your friend and mine' - good old blood and bone.

And you get this from where?, he said with reservations.

I have no idea since I don't live in the US. If I did, I suspect I'd be
looking for it under a different name, like blood meal or bone meal or
somesuch.

I wasn't sure, if that was what you meant, or the inedible remains of
slaughtered animals.

Thanks for the response.
--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI
http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2011/3/7/michael_moore
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZkDikRLQrw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyE5wjc4XOw

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:


For nitrogen I'd spread 'your friend and mine' - good old blood and
bone.

And you get this from where?, he said with reservations.

I have no idea since I don't live in the US. If I did, I suspect I'd be
looking for it under a different name, like blood meal or bone meal or
somesuch.

I wasn't sure, if that was what you meant, or the inedible remains of
slaughtered animals.

Well I do know people who have very large shredding machine who pick up
roadkill (eg dead roos, wombats etc), shove the roadkill through the
shredder and then throw in either cardboard boxes or hay bales to clean out
the lingering remains. I guess that would achieve a similar result.

FarmI wrote:
"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:


For nitrogen I'd spread 'your friend and mine' - good old blood
and bone.

And you get this from where?, he said with reservations.

I have no idea since I don't live in the US. If I did, I suspect
I'd be looking for it under a different name, like blood meal or
bone meal or somesuch.

I wasn't sure, if that was what you meant, or the inedible remains of
slaughtered animals.

Well I do know people who have very large shredding machine who pick
up roadkill (eg dead roos, wombats etc), shove the roadkill through
the shredder and then throw in either cardboard boxes or hay bales to
clean out the lingering remains. I guess that would achieve a
similar result.

Do they run a soup kitchen?

D

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

FarmI wrote:
"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:


For nitrogen I'd spread 'your friend and mine' - good old blood
and bone.

And you get this from where?, he said with reservations.

I have no idea since I don't live in the US. If I did, I suspect
I'd be looking for it under a different name, like blood meal or
bone meal or somesuch.

I wasn't sure, if that was what you meant, or the inedible remains of
slaughtered animals.

Well I do know people who have very large shredding machine who pick
up roadkill (eg dead roos, wombats etc), shove the roadkill through
the shredder and then throw in either cardboard boxes or hay bales to
clean out the lingering remains. I guess that would achieve a
similar result.

Do they run a soup kitchen?

D

Just saw a few minutes on TV on how they recycle the waste food from
Las Vegas a very small USA city. Trucked away looking like garbage
cooked and stirred and called slop. Then transferred to a pig farm.
Got me thinking about Prions (Bacon to Bacon) and fasting tonight.

Whew..

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden

http://uppitywis.org/ live WI

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
...
FarmI wrote:
"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:


For nitrogen I'd spread 'your friend and mine' - good old blood
and bone.

And you get this from where?, he said with reservations.

I have no idea since I don't live in the US. If I did, I suspect
I'd be looking for it under a different name, like blood meal or
bone meal or somesuch.

I wasn't sure, if that was what you meant, or the inedible remains of
slaughtered animals.

Well I do know people who have very large shredding machine who pick
up roadkill (eg dead roos, wombats etc), shove the roadkill through
the shredder and then throw in either cardboard boxes or hay bales to
clean out the lingering remains. I guess that would achieve a
similar result.

Do they run a soup kitchen?

LOL. We're too deeply rural for them to get any customers except roos or
wombats. The use the shredder goo to fertilise their wind breaks.

"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

FarmI wrote:
"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:


For nitrogen I'd spread 'your friend and mine' - good old blood
and bone.

And you get this from where?, he said with reservations.

I have no idea since I don't live in the US. If I did, I suspect
I'd be looking for it under a different name, like blood meal or
bone meal or somesuch.

I wasn't sure, if that was what you meant, or the inedible remains of
slaughtered animals.

Well I do know people who have very large shredding machine who pick
up roadkill (eg dead roos, wombats etc), shove the roadkill through
the shredder and then throw in either cardboard boxes or hay bales to
clean out the lingering remains. I guess that would achieve a
similar result.

Do they run a soup kitchen?

D

Just saw a few minutes on TV on how they recycle the waste food from
Las Vegas a very small USA city. Trucked away looking like garbage
cooked and stirred and called slop. Then transferred to a pig farm.
Got me thinking about Prions (Bacon to Bacon) and fasting tonight.

Whew..

I'm pretty sure that would be illegal here. I'm sure it is in the UK since
the last but one foot and mouth outbreak. IIRC, that outbreak was in the
early 2000s and was supposedly caused from restaurant scraps which had a
furrin origin.

In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

FarmI wrote:
"Billy" wrote in message
..
.
In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:


For nitrogen I'd spread 'your friend and mine' - good old blood
and bone.

And you get this from where?, he said with reservations.

I have no idea since I don't live in the US. If I did, I suspect
I'd be looking for it under a different name, like blood meal or
bone meal or somesuch.

I wasn't sure, if that was what you meant, or the inedible remains of
slaughtered animals.

Well I do know people who have very large shredding machine who pick
up roadkill (eg dead roos, wombats etc), shove the roadkill through
the shredder and then throw in either cardboard boxes or hay bales to
clean out the lingering remains. I guess that would achieve a
similar result.

Do they run a soup kitchen?

D

Just saw a few minutes on TV on how they recycle the waste food from
Las Vegas a very small USA city. Trucked away looking like garbage
cooked and stirred and called slop. Then transferred to a pig farm.
Got me thinking about Prions (Bacon to Bacon) and fasting tonight.

Whew..

I'm pretty sure that would be illegal here. I'm sure it is in the UK since
the last but one foot and mouth outbreak. IIRC, that outbreak was in the
early 2000s and was supposedly caused from restaurant scraps which had a
furrin origin.

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/8/24/david_kirby_on_the_looming_threat

Something else we feed chickens that people don¹t realize is beef
products. And when those chickens eat that beef product, some of it
falls into their litter. Well, we produce so much chicken litter in this
country, because of these factory farms, and it is so rich in phosphorus
and nitrogen, its land application uses are limited. So you have surplus
chicken litter and nothing to do with it. What do they do with it? They
feed it to cattle. So we feed beef cows chicken crap. That chicken
litter often contains bits and byproducts of cattle. So we are actually
feeding cattle to cattle, which is a risk factor for bovine spongiform
encephalopathy, better known as mad cow disease. We actually feed cattle
products to cattle in three different ways: chicken litter, restaurant
scraps, and blood products on dairy farms. And all the mad cow cases in
this country came from mega-dairies where, when that calf is born, they
remove it from its mother immediately, because that mother¹s milk is a
commodity, it¹s worth money, so instead they feed that calf a formula
that includes bovine blood products, and again increasing the risk of
mad cow disease.
--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI
http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2011/3/7/michael_moore
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZkDikRLQrw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyE5wjc4XOw

"Billy" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

I'm pretty sure that would be illegal here. I'm sure it is in the UK
since the last but one foot and mouth outbreak. IIRC, that outbreak
was in the
early 2000s and was supposedly caused from restaurant scraps which had a
furrin origin.

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/8/24/david_kirby_on_the_looming_threat

Something else we feed chickens that people don¹t realize is beef
products. And when those chickens eat that beef product, some of it
falls into their litter. Well, we produce so much chicken litter in this
country, because of these factory farms, and it is so rich in phosphorus
and nitrogen, its land application uses are limited. So you have surplus
chicken litter and nothing to do with it. What do they do with it? They
feed it to cattle. So we feed beef cows chicken crap. That chicken
litter often contains bits and byproducts of cattle. So we are actually
feeding cattle to cattle, which is a risk factor for bovine spongiform
encephalopathy, better known as mad cow disease. We actually feed cattle
products to cattle in three different ways: chicken litter, restaurant
scraps, and blood products on dairy farms. And all the mad cow cases in
this country came from mega-dairies where, when that calf is born, they
remove it from its mother immediately, because that mother¹s milk is a
commodity, it¹s worth money, so instead they feed that calf a formula
that includes bovine blood products, and again increasing the risk of
mad cow disease.

OMG! I feel sick just thinking about eating any US beef or eggs after
reading that. Are consumers are warned of those practices?

In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

I'm pretty sure that would be illegal here. I'm sure it is in the UK
since the last but one foot and mouth outbreak. IIRC, that outbreak
was in the
early 2000s and was supposedly caused from restaurant scraps which had a
furrin origin.

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/8/24/david_kirby_on_the_looming_threat

Something else we feed chickens that people don¹t realize is beef
products. And when those chickens eat that beef product, some of it
falls into their litter. Well, we produce so much chicken litter in this
country, because of these factory farms, and it is so rich in phosphorus
and nitrogen, its land application uses are limited. So you have surplus
chicken litter and nothing to do with it. What do they do with it? They
feed it to cattle. So we feed beef cows chicken crap. That chicken
litter often contains bits and byproducts of cattle. So we are actually
feeding cattle to cattle, which is a risk factor for bovine spongiform
encephalopathy, better known as mad cow disease. We actually feed cattle
products to cattle in three different ways: chicken litter, restaurant
scraps, and blood products on dairy farms. And all the mad cow cases in
this country came from mega-dairies where, when that calf is born, they
remove it from its mother immediately, because that mother¹s milk is a
commodity, it¹s worth money, so instead they feed that calf a formula
that includes bovine blood products, and again increasing the risk of
mad cow disease.

OMG! I feel sick just thinking about eating any US beef or eggs after
reading that. Are consumers are warned of those practices?

Not by the corporate media. That's 90% of American media that is owned
by 5 corporations.
--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI
http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2011/3/7/michael_moore
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZkDikRLQrw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyE5wjc4XOw

David Hare-Scott wrote:
Ted Shoemaker wrote:
....
So let's add compost. But, in order to add enough calcium in compost
form, I'd have to add several inches (in vertical depth) of of
compost. That would smother the lawn. Nope. Not gonna do it. I
don't want to re-plant the lawn.


Compost is good for depleted soil for many reasons but it will not increase
calcium very much if at all.

if you add enough to improve the habitat for
worms they will increase calcium levels. worms
do secrete calcium.

also many plants do have calcium, that doesn't
disappear when compost is made (or if it does
where does it go?).

just be careful as adding too much compost all
at once will likely encourage fungal diseases (
if you smother the grass).


Obviously I can't believe everything I hear or read.

What do you suggest?

Thank you.


Ted where did you get this information? Have you tested the pH? If not do
so before you act.

agreed.

but really, it makes more sense to plant grasses
or add other plants to the mix that will tolerate
existing conditions. leave the amendments and
compost for the garden beds that you want to alter
to fit specific crops (much smaller areas, less
expensive, etc.).


songbird

songbird wrote:
David Hare-Scott wrote:
Ted Shoemaker wrote:
...
So let's add compost. But, in order to add enough calcium in
compost form, I'd have to add several inches (in vertical depth) of
of compost. That would smother the lawn. Nope. Not gonna do it.
I don't want to re-plant the lawn.


Compost is good for depleted soil for many reasons but it will not
increase calcium very much if at all.

if you add enough to improve the habitat for
worms they will increase calcium levels. worms
do secrete calcium.


The worms will just recycle the calcium already in the environment so this
would have no net effect.

also many plants do have calcium, that doesn't
disappear when compost is made (or if it does
where does it go?).


All plants have calcium (but not much) and it doesn't go away when they die
or are composted (unlike nitrogen). However this is a very inefficient way
to add calcium to your soil, especially if the compost came from your
calcium depleted soil in the first place.

just be careful as adding too much compost all
at once will likely encourage fungal diseases (
if you smother the grass).


Obviously I can't believe everything I hear or read.

What do you suggest?

Thank you.


Ted where did you get this information? Have you tested the pH? If
not do so before you act.

agreed.

but really, it makes more sense to plant grasses
or add other plants to the mix that will tolerate
existing conditions. leave the amendments and
compost for the garden beds that you want to alter
to fit specific crops (much smaller areas, less
expensive, etc.).


songbird

This is an option but if liming is suitable in the situation it is not
difficult nor particularly expensive.

David

On Mar 10, 7:23*pm, Ted Shoemaker wrote:
Hello,

The soil in our yard appears to need nitrogen and calcium. *The stuff
I've read, and the advice I've been told, says to add soil amendments.

How?

Okay. *I'm far from an expert. *Let's start at the beginning.

If I add something like dolomite (for calcium), I'm told that will
kill microinvertebrates and make the lawn dependent on chemical
fertilizers indefinitely. *I don't want that!

So let's add compost. *But, in order to add enough calcium in compost
form, I'd have to add several inches (in vertical depth) of of
compost. *That would smother the lawn. *Nope. *Not gonna do it. *I
don't want to re-plant the lawn.

Obviously I can't believe everything I hear or read.

What do you suggest?

Ted, go get yourself tested.

Don't follow advice that may be well intended, but inaccurate for
your situation. Do you ask for medicine recommendations online?

There are too many factors you need to know specifically, is your
organic matter % too low? the CEC out of whack, your pH too high?
What are the Ca levels to make you think you need more? Is it to
bring the pH up a bit? what are your Mg levels. So do you use
Calcitic or Dolomite lime and at what rate? I was very surprised to
read that I had to use both types this year and at quite different
rates, one for the garden and one for the lawn right next to each
other


If you are in the US. The UMass ( http://www.umass.edu/soiltest/ )
has a soil test for 15$ that will give you a complete readout and
recommendations to follow for your specific situation instead of this
generalized, generic "advice". I usually get the results emailed to
me within 2 days of reciept and a hard copy followup w/in a week.
Your country extension agent will have more info and other choices.
If outside the US I am sure you have proper labs available to you that
do the same if you ask around. They also give organic recommendations
and ways/methods to measure them.

And NO...If you follow directions, lime ( nor fertilizers) will not
kill your soil, despite all the green noise you get from here.