Hi Folks,

I just joined the forum today so thought I'd pop on to say hi. I've recently finished building a new house which I'm over the moon with. Unfortunately, my house with a footprint of 93 square metres is sitting on a building site of 870 square metres which I want to change in to a lovely garden. However, the house has swallowed most of my money and my fingers are decidedly un-green!! Little bits at a time though.

Firstly, I'm based in Orkney so you can rest assured that my garden will get plenty of wind and rain. The soil seems to be a thin layer of topsoil with some horrible wet, sticky clay beneath. At the weekend I hired a mini-excavator and took out the bottom of my sloping back garden. My intention is to increase the width of the path at the back of the house by 200% to create a nice patio. I also plan to hold the garden back with a retaining wall at about 2-3 feet high. I'll decide on the final height when I see it. I'm going to be doing all the work myself which I'm quite looking forward to.

The last thing I paid my builder to do was to build a perimeter wall around my land. He did a top job and it's looking amazing. Unfortunately, as my house is on a slope, the water has really started gathering at the back of the wall round the front of my house. Not good!! So, I'm going to have to think about putting in some drainage. I was considering just digging a sump and filling it with hardcore but I'm not sure if that's going to be enough. I may have to connect a perforated pipe to the surface drain connected to the SUDS. More than likely, I'll end up having to do the same with the retaining wall at the back.

My aim is to have grass in this year so I'm up against it trying to fit everything in with a full time job and dark evenings. Not to mention the awful weather.

Is it worth me digging in the sticky clay while it's still soaking wet? I need to put in a base for my patio. Will sand alone be sufficient for that or so I really need hardcore? I'm sure I'll have loads of questions throughout my adventure but I'm in it for the longhaul so am looking forward to the challenges.

In article ,
saltdog wrote:

Is it worth me digging in the sticky clay while it's still soaking wet?

If your English clay is anything like what we've got in California
(adobe), you sure don't want to be trying to dig it when it's dry!


Patty

On 2/21/12 8:16 AM, saltdog wrote:
Hi Folks,

I just joined the forum today so thought I'd pop on to say hi. I've
recently finished building a new house which I'm over the moon with.
Unfortunately, my house with a footprint of 93 square metres is sitting
on a building site of 870 square metres which I want to change in to a
lovely garden. However, the house has swallowed most of my money and my
fingers are decidedly un-green!! Little bits at a time though.

Firstly, I'm based in Orkney so you can rest assured that my garden will
get plenty of wind and rain. The soil seems to be a thin layer of
topsoil with some horrible wet, sticky clay beneath. At the weekend I
hired a mini-excavator and took out the bottom of my sloping back
garden. My intention is to increase the width of the path at the back
of the house by 200% to create a nice patio. I also plan to hold the
garden back with a retaining wall at about 2-3 feet high. I'll decide
on the final height when I see it. I'm going to be doing all the work
myself which I'm quite looking forward to.

The last thing I paid my builder to do was to build a perimeter wall
around my land. He did a top job and it's looking amazing.
Unfortunately, as my house is on a slope, the water has really started
gathering at the back of the wall round the front of my house. Not
good!! So, I'm going to have to think about putting in some drainage.
I was considering just digging a sump and filling it with hardcore but
I'm not sure if that's going to be enough. I may have to connect a
perforated pipe to the surface drain connected to the SUDS. More than
likely, I'll end up having to do the same with the retaining wall at the
back.

My aim is to have grass in this year so I'm up against it trying to fit
everything in with a full time job and dark evenings. Not to mention
the awful weather.

Is it worth me digging in the sticky clay while it's still soaking wet?
I need to put in a base for my patio. Will sand alone be sufficient for
that or so I really need hardcore? I'm sure I'll have loads of
questions throughout my adventure but I'm in it for the longhaul so am
looking forward to the challenges.

A well-built wall -- either a perimeter wall or a retaining wall --
should have weep holes to allow for drainage. If your perimeter wall
does not have weep holes, you should get a good masonry drill bit and
create some.

To make the clay less sticky and more easy to dig, broadcast a generous
amount of gypsum over the area, perhaps a centimeter (1/3 inch). Let
the rain rinse it into the soil. Repeat at least once.

A retaining wall needs to be engineered correctly. This is generally
NOT a do-it-yourself project. There are issues about footings (depth
and width), anchoring into the slope, amount and size of rebar (steel
rods), grout, etc.

A retaining wall is not a slough wall. I have the latter at the foot of
a slope. It does not hold the slope but merely prevents small amounts
of loose soil from reaching the flat area of my garden. When my slope
failed, it overtopped the slough wall. It cost over $150,000US to
regrade the slope; it would have cost twice that to use a retaining wall
to hold the slope.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

David E. Ross wrote:
....
A well-built wall -- either a perimeter wall or a retaining wall --
should have weep holes to allow for drainage. If your perimeter wall
does not have weep holes, you should get a good masonry drill bit and
create some.

if it's heavy soil behind they might not
do much good. in clay the footings and back
fill become even more important. in areas
where there are frost/thaw cycles it becomes
triply important.


To make the clay less sticky and more easy to dig, broadcast a generous
amount of gypsum over the area, perhaps a centimeter (1/3 inch). Let
the rain rinse it into the soil. Repeat at least once.

A retaining wall needs to be engineered correctly. This is generally
NOT a do-it-yourself project. There are issues about footings (depth
and width), anchoring into the slope, amount and size of rebar (steel
rods), grout, etc.

agreed. if you're going to do this do
it well because if you do it wrong and it
fails it costs a lot of effort to do it
all over again correctly.


A retaining wall is not a slough wall. I have the latter at the foot of
a slope. It does not hold the slope but merely prevents small amounts
of loose soil from reaching the flat area of my garden. When my slope
failed, it overtopped the slough wall. It cost over $150,000US to
regrade the slope; it would have cost twice that to use a retaining wall
to hold the slope.

holy crap! that could buy three to five houses
in any of several local small towns around here.


songbird

Much as I appreciate the response and agree with you Patty, I must clarify that my clay is very much Scottish and not English. Lol.

You have a point though. I never really meant when it was baked dry though. I'm thinking that happens less in Scotland than it would in California anyway. I just wondered if there was any point digging it while it was efectively a pond. The rain has been relentless here since I actually dug it out. I am going to get out there with a fork tonight though to see if I can't get a little bit of it to drain away.

Thanks for your response David,

I'm not entirely sure why my perimeter wall has no weep holes in it. It was built by the same builder who built my house and I can vouch for his competence. Having looked around the development where my house is situated, I can't see any other walls with weep holes in them either although I'm certainly no expert. There is a land drain running under my wall so I'd planned just to dig a drain at the back of the wall and join it to the existing land drain. I would hope that would suffice. I'd certainly prefer that than have red clay water running through holes in my arctic white wall! /

I'll have a look in to gypsum. I'm not familiar with it but I'll take a look. In fairness, I'm not really familiar with any elements of gardening but I'm looking to improve my knowledge. One of the reasons I'm here I guess. Can any of my British colleagues on here let me know how much this is likely to cost?

I suppose my 'retaining wall' isn't really going to be retaining too much and my indeed be more of a slough wall. The slope is a really gentle one and since I dug it out, it's pretty much self supporting so far. I'm only really planning on having it 2-3 foot high. the intention is to build it with 6" concrete blocks on the flat giving a more stable platform. I will be putting in concrete foundations about 1 foot deep on a bed of hardcore. the foundations will be about 18" wide also.

Thanks for your advice. It's all appreciated.

Thanks for the additional advice Songbird. I can explain that there isn't a great amount of frost/thaw in this area. Nothing severe anyway. Generally we do wet and windy well but the rest never comes to much. We call it home though.

Now, 3-5 houses for $150,000??? Really? I so live in the wrong part of the world. I would struggle to get a two bedroom flat for that! No wonder there are those that call our country 'Rip Off' Britain!!

In article ,
saltdog wrote:

'Patty Winter[_2_ Wrote:

If your English clay is anything like what we've got in California
(adobe), you sure don't want to be trying to dig it when it's dry!

Much as I appreciate the response and agree with you Patty, I must
clarify that my clay is very much Scottish and not English. Lol.

Sorry, "saltdog"! (Also sorry to not address you properly by name,
but I don't know what it is.) Dunno why I thought that the part of
the UK you were in was England. Well, if you folks get that referendum
sorted out, the difference will be even clearer. :-)


You have a point though. I never really meant when it was baked dry
though. I'm thinking that happens less in Scotland than it would in
California anyway.

LOL--probably so! It's in the '70s F here today, and it's February!


I just wondered if there was any point digging it
while it was efectively a pond.

No, you're right, it isn't. Wait until it's still soft but not soggy.
Good luck!


Patty

On 2/23/12 1:48 AM, saltdog wrote:
'Patty Winter[_2_ Wrote:
;951634']In article ,
saltdog wrote:-

Is it worth me digging in the sticky clay while it's still soaking wet?
-

If your English clay is anything like what we've got in California
(adobe), you sure don't want to be trying to dig it when it's dry!


Patty
Much as I appreciate the response and agree with you Patty, I must
clarify that my clay is very much Scottish and not English. Lol.

You have a point though. I never really meant when it was baked dry
though. I'm thinking that happens less in Scotland than it would in
California anyway. I just wondered if there was any point digging it
while it was efectively a pond. The rain has been relentless here since
I actually dug it out. I am going to get out there with a fork tonight
though to see if I can't get a little bit of it to drain away.

When you dig truly wet clay, you make the soil stucture far worse than
it was unless you are removing the clay and hauling it away. Actually,
you cannot even walk on wet clay without adversely affecting the soil
structure.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

Hi saltdog,

Ask the locals about Plaggen soil Its what these island people used for thousands of years for agriculture.
This type of soil is made from urine soaked peat (from cattle bedding), manure and chopped up seaweed. However with the size of your garden a sturdy rotovator would be necessary. This soil has great cultivation properties, but as I say ask the locals they might even help get you started.


uriel13


The mind is like a parachute its totally useless unless it is open

[/quote]

Hi saltdog,

An interesting note on Plaggen soils, some of the oldest were said to be created in the 12th and 13th centuries on the islands of Orkney and Shetland. To be honest I think that this date is way to late and was much earlier than this by about 1800 years earlier.

Now it is known that Wim Sombroek's father had converted some of his land into Plaggen fields. And that he produced greater crops due to this change in soil structure. However he did not use peat, he used chopped up straw and manure mixed with molasses and manure.

As far as I can ascertain, on having discovered the TP soil in the Amazon delta (he was not the first to do so) he saw the potential that such a soil would have in Europe. He died still not having unlocked the secret of this soil, however his work still goes on.

But getting back to the make up of the original Plaggen soil, it was originally created as an adjunct to the provision of bedding for cattle. Peat was cut, dried and laid out like bricks in the cattle sheds as bedding, when it became sodden with urine it was mixed with manure and was dug into the fields. It was almost like a TP effect except had no charcoal, so there was evidence of people unwittingly at first, producing a better soil.

It maybe that I am being hard on these ancient island people because peat would have reacted in the same manner as charcoal in sucking up the nutrient from both urine and manure. However it would have been a soil on the acidic side of neutral.

Now given that the site of Scara Brae had living quarters and a toilet system on Orkney 3 thousand years ago would seem to prove a high degree of intelligence had long been established.

As I understand it, these soils continued to be cultivated in this manner until the 1960's. However that is about the time when chemical crop production began, This would seem to have been the death knell of that form of soil cultivation.

However it would not take much effort to regain the viability of these former Plaggen soils. The watering of such soil with neat EM cultures would I believe bring life back into these soils. Now given that there is thousands of years of seaweed also within this soil, EM's would I believe re-create these Plaggen soils to their former health and nutritional value to crops.

The long lasting effect of Plaggen soils is like charcoal, down to the absorbency of the peat. It to can retain moisture and given the amount of seaweed within it these island soils could make a great difference to the crop yields if watered with EM's.


These are just my thoughts others will disagree


The mind is like a parachute it is totally usless unless it is open

Hi saltdog,

An interesting note on Plaggen soils, some of the oldest were said to be created in the 12th and 13th centuries on the islands of Orkney and Shetland. To be honest I think that this date is way to late and was much earlier than this by about 1800 years earlier.

Now it is known that Wim Sombroek's father had converted some of his land into Plaggen fields. And that he produced greater crops due to this change in soil structure. However he did not use peat, he used chopped up straw and manure mixed with molasses and manure.

As far as I can ascertain, on having discovered the TP soil in the Amazon delta (he was not the first to do so) he saw the potential that such a soil would have in Europe. He died still not having unlocked the secret of this soil, however his work still goes on.

But getting back to the make up of the original Plaggen soil, it was originally created as an adjunct to the provision of bedding for cattle. Peat was cut, dried and laid out like bricks in the cattle sheds as bedding, when it became sodden with urine it was mixed with manure and was dug into the fields. It was almost like a TP effect except had no charcoal, so there was evidence of people unwittingly at first, producing a better soil.

It maybe that I am being hard on these ancient island people because peat would have reacted in the same manner as charcoal in sucking up the nutrient from both urine and manure. However it would have been a soil on the acidic side of neutral.

Now given that the site of Scara Brae had living quarters and a toilet system on Orkney 3 thousand years ago would seem to prove a high degree of intelligence had long been established.

As I understand it, these soils continued to be cultivated in this manner until the 1960's. However that is about the time when chemical crop production began, This would seem to have been the death knell of that form of soil cultivation.

However it would not take much effort to regain the viability of these former Plaggen soils. The watering of such soil with neat EM cultures would I believe bring life back into these soils. Now given that there is thousands of years of seaweed also within this soil, EM's would I believe re-create these Plaggen soils to their former health and nutritional value to crops.

The long lasting effect of Plaggen soils is like charcoal, down to the absorbency of the peat. It to can retain moisture and given the amount of seaweed within it these island soils could make a great difference to the crop yields if watered with EM's.


These are just my thoughts others will disagree


The mind is like a parachute it is totally usless unless it is open[/quote]
One word Uriel - Wow!!

I'm very impressed at your knowledge of soil types in Orkney. Obviously as a complete novice I can't even begin to comment but it sounds good nonetheless. Got information to impress the GF with now! Lol.

The wild grasses that were growing on the development before we all turned up and ruined it were definitely testament to the fertility of the land. As I only really want a decent lawn out of it, I'm not overly concerned about growing things just yet. right now it's more the landscaping aspect which intrests me.

The area I dug out was purely to lay concrete paving stones and create a large patio at the rear of the house. It is currently swimming with water so I was wondering if I would create any additional problems by throwing down a layer of dry mix sand and cement over the area to bed down the slabs? I want to get the construction aspects of the garden out of the way in order to start planting and sowing in the Spring.

Kevin

Here’s another example of how the FCC has failed in their responsibility to the public good: In 1995, the FCC forbade companies ownership of more than 40 stations. Clear Channel Communications now owns over 1,500. This rate of consolidation clearly shows no sign of slowing.

Oookaaayyy! :/ Am I missing something? I'm fairly sure my garden in the far north of Scotland isn't contravening any FCC rules but hey, I could be wrong. Lol. Thanks for the input though.

Kev