Guv Bob wrote:
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
...
User Bp wrote:
In alt.home.lawn.garden Guv Bob
wrote:

How's a good way to break up hard soil? Since it's all level, my
first thought is to soak it good for a couple of days. I wonder
if renting an aerator might also be good.

If your soil is like mine, there's a very narrow range of moisure
levels at which it's workable. I understand local farmers refer to
it as "36 hour soil", which is the schedule window for plowing.

Too wet and it's like warm tar, too dry and it's extremely hard. In
the middle, it's rather crumbly. I'd soak a patch and poke it each
day after. _Maybe_ you'll find a day when it's workable.

HTH,

bob prohaska

Hereabouts this is called "Sunday soil", too wet to work on Saturday
and too dry by Monday. The problem with working it on Sunday is
that it will always stay the same, you haven't addressed the problem
of why it is so hard on Monday.

Appreciate all the good info. For breaking up the soil, what about
adding a weak solution of detergent as a wetting agent in one of
these hose attachments?


If that is all you do it will not achieve much. Yes you do need to wet the
soil but then you need to alter the texture and enable to hold a good amount
of water by itself in future.

Gypsum and other clay breakers cause the clay to clump rather than stay
plastic. Organic matter lightens and loosens and allows organisms from
algae and bacteria up to worms and arthropods to live in it and assist.
Good soil is living soil not a bunch of minerals. You are aiming in the
long run for a good balance of particle size and particle type. If you
don't address the issues of the soils composition, texture and balance then
all the watering and physical breaking are just temporary measures. Good
soil neither needs nor benefits from frequent major cultivation although
that may speed up the improvement process at the start, doing it without
cultivation at all is quite possible but takes longer.

D

On 6/28/2014 12:22 AM, Guv Bob wrote:
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message ...
User Bp wrote:
In alt.home.lawn.garden Guv Bob
wrote:

How's a good way to break up hard soil? Since it's all level, my
first thought is to soak it good for a couple of days. I wonder if
renting an aerator might also be good.

If your soil is like mine, there's a very narrow range of moisure
levels at which it's workable. I understand local farmers refer to it
as "36 hour soil", which is the schedule window for plowing.

Too wet and it's like warm tar, too dry and it's extremely hard. In
the middle, it's rather crumbly. I'd soak a patch and poke it each
day after. _Maybe_ you'll find a day when it's workable.

HTH,

bob prohaska

Hereabouts this is called "Sunday soil", too wet to work on Saturday and too
dry by Monday. The problem with working it on Sunday is that it will always
stay the same, you haven't addressed the problem of why it is so hard on
Monday.


Appreciate all the good info. For breaking up the soil, what about
adding a weak solution of detergent as a wetting agent in one of
these hose attachments?

http://www.walmart.com/ip/21065376?w...546436&veh=sem



When you sprinkle just a small amount of water, does it soak in or bead
up? If it beads up, then yes you need a wetting agent. However,
detergent or soap are alkaline, which can further harden the soil
structure; so make it very weak. Use it on the gypsum. Trying to wet
the soil before applying gypsum will merely waste water.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

On Friday, June 27, 2014 5:04:38 PM UTC-7, Brooklyn1 wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 16:10:37 -0800, "Guv Bob"

wrote:



"David E. Ross" wrote in message ...

On 6/27/2014 2:47 PM, Guv Bob wrote:

"Brooklyn1" wrote in message ...

Guv Bob wrote:



How's a good way to break up hard soil? Since it's all level, my

first thought is to soak it good for a couple of days. I wonder if

renting an aerator might also be good.



An aerator won't do much on hard-pack adobe like soil except break the

aerator... aerators only poke holes, some extract plugs, but they are

meant for reasonably soft soil that may be slightly compacted from

foot traffic.



Most of the soil is fairly easy to dig down 2-3 inches, but about 1/4

of the back yard is bare & hard as a rock. When I was taking soil

samples, I had to use a pick to get down that far. But the whole

yard is dry and hard deeper than 3-4 inches.



That kind of soil won't let you grow much, let alone a lawn. First

where are you located? Geographical location plays a large part in

soil conditions. In many parts of the US southwest the soil is indeed

like cured concrete, breaking it up will will only result in it going

back to hard after the first couple of heavy rains... then the best

tack to take is to haul in lots of good top soil and do your planting

in that... it would cost too much to amend the type of soil you

describe and it won't be long any organic amendment will decompose

like it was never there.





Thanks. So Cal. According to a county site report for a shopping

center in the area, it has a base of older alluvial interbedded silty

clay and clay, overlain by interlayered sandy gravel and silty clay.





Thus, you likely have enough clay that gypsum would be appropriate.



The charts say all the grasses I have required 6-7pH. Soil is 6.5-7.0 more or less. I thought gypsum would make it alkaline.





Gypsom is a crap shoot for loosening compacted soil regardless but for

certain it will make your soil extremely alkaline and once there will

be near impossible to remediate. Were it me I'd break up the existing

soil as best I can and then find a source for good top soil and

calculate how many cubic yards to put in a six inch depth. I'd be

sure to place landscaping blocks at the down hill perimeters to retain

your topsoil in heavy downpours... it doesn't rain often in So Cal but

when it does it could easily be a deluge that washes away soil, and

that's why the soil there is so **** poor. I lived in So Cal for

several years, I know of what I speak. I had a Greek neighbor when I

lived in Pasadena who would instruct all his visitors to bring as much

top soil as they could from his home state of Ohio for his fig and

olive trees. Where I live now (in the Hudson River valley) I have

some of the best top soil on the planet, I can dig down six feet and

still be into rich black earth.

Er...generalization about So. Cal soil. Sure, it's adobe, but can be and no doubt has been modified by conscientious homeowners. When I bought my plantation [censored] years ago, the soil was already good, because the old folks who had been there forevah had been consistently modifying it. I took over & continued to do so.

Congrats on your wonderful loam and may it continue to produce good food and beautiful flowers.

HB

On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 13:47:06 -0800, "Guv Bob"
wrote:

"Brooklyn1" wrote in message ...
Guv Bob wrote:

How's a good way to break up hard soil? Since it's all level, my
first thought is to soak it good for a couple of days. I wonder if
renting an aerator might also be good.

An aerator won't do much on hard-pack adobe like soil except break the
aerator... aerators only poke holes, some extract plugs, but they are
meant for reasonably soft soil that may be slightly compacted from
foot traffic.

Most of the soil is fairly easy to dig down 2-3 inches, but about 1/4
of the back yard is bare & hard as a rock. When I was taking soil
samples, I had to use a pick to get down that far. But the whole
yard is dry and hard deeper than 3-4 inches.

That kind of soil won't let you grow much, let alone a lawn. First
where are you located? Geographical location plays a large part in
soil conditions. In many parts of the US southwest the soil is indeed
like cured concrete, breaking it up will will only result in it going
back to hard after the first couple of heavy rains... then the best
tack to take is to haul in lots of good top soil and do your planting
in that... it would cost too much to amend the type of soil you
describe and it won't be long any organic amendment will decompose
like it was never there.

Thanks. So Cal. According to a county site report for a shopping center in the area, it has a base of older alluvial interbedded silty clay and clay, overlain by interlayered sandy gravel and silty clay.

I am familiar with that stuff having amended that stuff before. I like
the use of gypsum to make rototilling tractable. But then the real
problem comes, remove and haul away about 2 inches worth (out of 18 inch
rototilling depth), it will be replaced with amendments. Next add
organics and a good dose of sand, maybe even pea gravel. Don't forget a
little of vermiculite. Then smooth it and plant whatever you want.

?-)

"David E. Ross" wrote in message ...
On 6/28/2014 12:22 AM, Guv Bob wrote:
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message ...
User Bp wrote:
In alt.home.lawn.garden Guv Bob
wrote:

How's a good way to break up hard soil? Since it's all level, my
first thought is to soak it good for a couple of days. I wonder if
renting an aerator might also be good.

If your soil is like mine, there's a very narrow range of moisure
levels at which it's workable. I understand local farmers refer to it
as "36 hour soil", which is the schedule window for plowing.

Too wet and it's like warm tar, too dry and it's extremely hard. In
the middle, it's rather crumbly. I'd soak a patch and poke it each
day after. _Maybe_ you'll find a day when it's workable.

HTH,

bob prohaska

Hereabouts this is called "Sunday soil", too wet to work on Saturday and too
dry by Monday. The problem with working it on Sunday is that it will always
stay the same, you haven't addressed the problem of why it is so hard on
Monday.


Appreciate all the good info. For breaking up the soil, what about
adding a weak solution of detergent as a wetting agent in one of
these hose attachments?

http://www.walmart.com/ip/21065376?w...546436&veh=sem



When you sprinkle just a small amount of water, does it soak in or bead
up? If it beads up, then yes you need a wetting agent. However,
detergent or soap are alkaline, which can further harden the soil
structure; so make it very weak. Use it on the gypsum. Trying to wet
the soil before applying gypsum will merely waste water.

I have been soaking the yard once a month for about 30 minutes. Mostly it stays on the surface but soaks in after an hour or so.

On 6/30/2014 2:50 AM, Guv Bob wrote:
"David E. Ross" wrote in message ...
On 6/28/2014 12:22 AM, Guv Bob wrote:
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message ...
User Bp wrote:
In alt.home.lawn.garden Guv Bob
wrote:

How's a good way to break up hard soil? Since it's all level, my
first thought is to soak it good for a couple of days. I wonder if
renting an aerator might also be good.

If your soil is like mine, there's a very narrow range of moisure
levels at which it's workable. I understand local farmers refer to it
as "36 hour soil", which is the schedule window for plowing.

Too wet and it's like warm tar, too dry and it's extremely hard. In
the middle, it's rather crumbly. I'd soak a patch and poke it each
day after. _Maybe_ you'll find a day when it's workable.

HTH,

bob prohaska

Hereabouts this is called "Sunday soil", too wet to work on Saturday and too
dry by Monday. The problem with working it on Sunday is that it will always
stay the same, you haven't addressed the problem of why it is so hard on
Monday.


Appreciate all the good info. For breaking up the soil, what about
adding a weak solution of detergent as a wetting agent in one of
these hose attachments?

http://www.walmart.com/ip/21065376?w...546436&veh=sem



When you sprinkle just a small amount of water, does it soak in or bead
up? If it beads up, then yes you need a wetting agent. However,
detergent or soap are alkaline, which can further harden the soil
structure; so make it very weak. Use it on the gypsum. Trying to wet
the soil before applying gypsum will merely waste water.

I have been soaking the yard once a month for about 30 minutes. Mostly it stays on the surface but soaks in after an hour or so.


Then use a minor amount of liquid soap or detergent in the water AFTER
you apply gypsum. A 30 minute soak right now is excessive. It can
result in wasteful runoff.

A 30 minute soak right after applying gypsum will wash away the gypsum.
The initial wetting down should be less than a 5 minute sprinkle, just
enough to make the gypsum damp. The next day, a 5-10 minute sprinkle
will start the gypsum dissolving; do not sprinkle long enough to puddle
or start rinsing the gypsum away. (Sprinkling instead of flooding will
hasten the dissolving of the gypsum because of the force of the water
landing on it.) Then every third day, repeat the dissolving sprinkle.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

"David E. Ross" wrote in message ...
On 6/30/2014 2:50 AM, Guv Bob wrote:
"David E. Ross" wrote in message ...
On 6/28/2014 12:22 AM, Guv Bob wrote:
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message ...
User Bp wrote:
In alt.home.lawn.garden Guv Bob
wrote:

How's a good way to break up hard soil? Since it's all level, my
first thought is to soak it good for a couple of days. I wonder if
renting an aerator might also be good.

If your soil is like mine, there's a very narrow range of moisure
levels at which it's workable. I understand local farmers refer to it
as "36 hour soil", which is the schedule window for plowing.

Too wet and it's like warm tar, too dry and it's extremely hard. In
the middle, it's rather crumbly. I'd soak a patch and poke it each
day after. _Maybe_ you'll find a day when it's workable.

HTH,

bob prohaska

Hereabouts this is called "Sunday soil", too wet to work on Saturday and too
dry by Monday. The problem with working it on Sunday is that it will always
stay the same, you haven't addressed the problem of why it is so hard on
Monday.


Appreciate all the good info. For breaking up the soil, what about
adding a weak solution of detergent as a wetting agent in one of
these hose attachments?

http://www.walmart.com/ip/21065376?w...546436&veh=sem



When you sprinkle just a small amount of water, does it soak in or bead
up? If it beads up, then yes you need a wetting agent. However,
detergent or soap are alkaline, which can further harden the soil
structure; so make it very weak. Use it on the gypsum. Trying to wet
the soil before applying gypsum will merely waste water.

I have been soaking the yard once a month for about 30 minutes. Mostly it stays on the surface but soaks in after an hour or so.


Then use a minor amount of liquid soap or detergent in the water AFTER
you apply gypsum. A 30 minute soak right now is excessive. It can
result in wasteful runoff.

A 30 minute soak right after applying gypsum will wash away the gypsum.
The initial wetting down should be less than a 5 minute sprinkle, just
enough to make the gypsum damp. The next day, a 5-10 minute sprinkle
will start the gypsum dissolving; do not sprinkle long enough to puddle
or start rinsing the gypsum away. (Sprinkling instead of flooding will
hasten the dissolving of the gypsum because of the force of the water
landing on it.) Then every third day, repeat the dissolving sprinkle.


Thanks. To be clear, When I said soaking for 30 minutes, it does not run off. The yard is level and all of it soaks into the ground.