I'm trying to get revved up for the weekend lawn job....

How's a good way to break up hard soil? Since it's all level, my first thought is to soak it good for a couple of days. I wonder if renting an aerator might also be good.

Most of the soil is fairly easy to dig down 2-3 inches, but about 1/4 of the back yard is bare & hard as a rock. When I was taking soil samples, I had to use a pick to get down that far. Good news is that the pH and nutrients for the entire yard, including this bare area, were the same. But the whole yard is dry and hard deeper than 3-4 inches.

On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 15:22:15 -0800, Guv Bob wrote:

I'm trying to get revved up for the weekend lawn job....

How's a good way to break up hard soil? Since it's all level, my first thought is to soak it good for a couple of days. I wonder if renting an aerator might also be good.

Most of the soil is fairly easy to dig down 2-3 inches, but about 1/4 of the back yard is bare & hard as a rock. When I was taking soil samples, I had to use a pick to get down that far. Good news is that the pH and nutrients for the entire yard, including this bare area, were the same. But the whole yard is dry and hard deeper than 3-4 inches.

How did it get so hard? Vehicles, traffic? Chemical composition?
How much time do you have? (Roots can do wonders)
How much area? (Is hand labor out of the question)
Is it worth doing?

My experience is that rototillers don't work - they just scoot over really hard soil.

Good luck!

On 6/26/2014 4:22 PM, Guv Bob wrote:
I'm trying to get revved up for the weekend lawn job....

How's a good way to break up hard soil? Since it's all level, my
first thought is to soak it good for a couple of days. I wonder if
renting an aerator might also be good.

Most of the soil is fairly easy to dig down 2-3 inches, but about 1/4
of the back yard is bare & hard as a rock. When I was taking soil
samples, I had to use a pick to get down that far. Good news is
that the pH and nutrients for the entire yard, including this bare
area, were the same. But the whole yard is dry and hard deeper than
3-4 inches.

Is your soil mostly clay? If so, try the following.

Broadcast enough gypsum over the area to coat the soil about 1/8 inch.
Lightly sprinkle with water, just enough to dampen the gypsum.

On the next day, water the area lightly, enough to start dissolving the
gypsum but not enough to rinse any away. Repeat every-other day until
all the gypsum is dissolved and rinsed into the soil.

Wait two days. Then dig. By now, you might even be able to use a power
rototiller. As you dig or till, stir a 6 inch layer of peat moss to a
depth of 12 inches; this will help prevent the soil from hardening again.

Note that this process is NOT a one-weekend task.

Gypsum (calcium sulfate) reacts chemically with clay to make it porous
and granular, thus breaking it up so that it can be tilled.
Unfortunately, it eventually leaches away, leaving heavy, sticky clay.
Thus, you will have to apply more gypsum periodically (every 2-3 years).

My lot is almost 1/5 acre, including the footprint of my house, the
short driveway into my garage, and a patio. Every other year, I apply
approximately 250 pounds of gypsum to my entire garden, front and back,
except for the steep hill at the far back. (I do not apply gypsum to
the hill because I paid a fortune to have it regraded and compacted when
it failed in 2005. Gypsum would undo the compacting and create the risk
of a new failure.) In the years when I do not apply gypsum throughout
my garden, I still apply it to my camellias and azaleas. Here (southern
California) gypsum runs about $9 for a 50-pound sack.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

"David E. Ross" wrote in message ...
On 6/26/2014 4:22 PM, Guv Bob wrote:
I'm trying to get revved up for the weekend lawn job....

How's a good way to break up hard soil? Since it's all level, my
first thought is to soak it good for a couple of days. I wonder if
renting an aerator might also be good.

Most of the soil is fairly easy to dig down 2-3 inches, but about 1/4
of the back yard is bare & hard as a rock. When I was taking soil
samples, I had to use a pick to get down that far. Good news is
that the pH and nutrients for the entire yard, including this bare
area, were the same. But the whole yard is dry and hard deeper than
3-4 inches.

Is your soil mostly clay? If so, try the following.

Broadcast enough gypsum over the area to coat the soil about 1/8 inch.
Lightly sprinkle with water, just enough to dampen the gypsum.

On the next day, water the area lightly, enough to start dissolving the
gypsum but not enough to rinse any away. Repeat every-other day until
all the gypsum is dissolved and rinsed into the soil.

Wait two days. Then dig. By now, you might even be able to use a power
rototiller. As you dig or till, stir a 6 inch layer of peat moss to a
depth of 12 inches; this will help prevent the soil from hardening again.

Note that this process is NOT a one-weekend task.

Gypsum (calcium sulfate) reacts chemically with clay to make it porous
and granular, thus breaking it up so that it can be tilled.
Unfortunately, it eventually leaches away, leaving heavy, sticky clay.
Thus, you will have to apply more gypsum periodically (every 2-3 years).

My lot is almost 1/5 acre, including the footprint of my house, the
short driveway into my garage, and a patio. Every other year, I apply
approximately 250 pounds of gypsum to my entire garden, front and back,
except for the steep hill at the far back. (I do not apply gypsum to
the hill because I paid a fortune to have it regraded and compacted when
it failed in 2005. Gypsum would undo the compacting and create the risk
of a new failure.) In the years when I do not apply gypsum throughout
my garden, I still apply it to my camellias and azaleas. Here (southern
California) gypsum runs about $9 for a 50-pound sack.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

What about a power aerator or a slitter?

I've got one of these manual aerators, but can't use on the hard patches:
http://hgtv.sndimg.com/HGTV/2012/01/...er_s3x4_lg.jpg

Slitter:
http://hgtv.sndimg.com/HGTV/2012/01/...er_s4x3_lg.jpg

On 6/27/2014 8:38 AM, Guv Bob wrote:
"David E. Ross" wrote in message ...
On 6/26/2014 4:22 PM, Guv Bob wrote:
I'm trying to get revved up for the weekend lawn job....

How's a good way to break up hard soil? Since it's all level, my
first thought is to soak it good for a couple of days. I wonder if
renting an aerator might also be good.

Most of the soil is fairly easy to dig down 2-3 inches, but about 1/4
of the back yard is bare & hard as a rock. When I was taking soil
samples, I had to use a pick to get down that far. Good news is
that the pH and nutrients for the entire yard, including this bare
area, were the same. But the whole yard is dry and hard deeper than
3-4 inches.

Is your soil mostly clay? If so, try the following.

Broadcast enough gypsum over the area to coat the soil about 1/8 inch.
Lightly sprinkle with water, just enough to dampen the gypsum.

On the next day, water the area lightly, enough to start dissolving the
gypsum but not enough to rinse any away. Repeat every-other day until
all the gypsum is dissolved and rinsed into the soil.

Wait two days. Then dig. By now, you might even be able to use a power
rototiller. As you dig or till, stir a 6 inch layer of peat moss to a
depth of 12 inches; this will help prevent the soil from hardening again.

Note that this process is NOT a one-weekend task.

Gypsum (calcium sulfate) reacts chemically with clay to make it porous
and granular, thus breaking it up so that it can be tilled.
Unfortunately, it eventually leaches away, leaving heavy, sticky clay.
Thus, you will have to apply more gypsum periodically (every 2-3 years).

My lot is almost 1/5 acre, including the footprint of my house, the
short driveway into my garage, and a patio. Every other year, I apply
approximately 250 pounds of gypsum to my entire garden, front and back,
except for the steep hill at the far back. (I do not apply gypsum to
the hill because I paid a fortune to have it regraded and compacted when
it failed in 2005. Gypsum would undo the compacting and create the risk
of a new failure.) In the years when I do not apply gypsum throughout
my garden, I still apply it to my camellias and azaleas. Here (southern
California) gypsum runs about $9 for a 50-pound sack.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

What about a power aerator or a slitter?

I've got one of these manual aerators, but can't use on the hard patches:
http://hgtv.sndimg.com/HGTV/2012/01/...er_s3x4_lg.jpg

Slitter:
http://hgtv.sndimg.com/HGTV/2012/01/...er_s4x3_lg.jpg


Again, IF YOUR SOIL IS MOSTLY CLAY, you should treat it with gypsum
before trying anything else to improve its tilth.

From your description, I don't think an aerator -- even a power aerator
-- will work on the hardest parts of your soil without prior treatment.
After using gypsum, you will find that an aerator will work very well.
Just be sure you are using the kind that extracts plugs of soil (they
look like dog droppings) and not the kind that merely pokes holes. The
latter will cause more compaction and make things worse.

However, for a first-time treatment, I would recommend rototilling
organic matter into the soil after the gypsum treatment. This will have
long-lasting benefits. While I suggested peat moss, you should also
consider other forms of organic matter such as manure or coarse compost.
I would not add sawdust since it decomposes too quickly and absorbs too
much nitrogen in the process.

The slitter might actually make things worse by compacting the soil.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

On 6/27/2014 10:23 AM, David E. Ross wrote:
On 6/27/2014 8:38 AM, Guv Bob wrote:
"David E. Ross" wrote in message ...
On 6/26/2014 4:22 PM, Guv Bob wrote:
I'm trying to get revved up for the weekend lawn job....

How's a good way to break up hard soil? Since it's all level, my
first thought is to soak it good for a couple of days. I wonder if
renting an aerator might also be good.

Most of the soil is fairly easy to dig down 2-3 inches, but about 1/4
of the back yard is bare & hard as a rock. When I was taking soil
samples, I had to use a pick to get down that far. Good news is
that the pH and nutrients for the entire yard, including this bare
area, were the same. But the whole yard is dry and hard deeper than
3-4 inches.

Is your soil mostly clay? If so, try the following.

Broadcast enough gypsum over the area to coat the soil about 1/8 inch.
Lightly sprinkle with water, just enough to dampen the gypsum.

On the next day, water the area lightly, enough to start dissolving the
gypsum but not enough to rinse any away. Repeat every-other day until
all the gypsum is dissolved and rinsed into the soil.

Wait two days. Then dig. By now, you might even be able to use a power
rototiller. As you dig or till, stir a 6 inch layer of peat moss to a
depth of 12 inches; this will help prevent the soil from hardening again.

Note that this process is NOT a one-weekend task.

Gypsum (calcium sulfate) reacts chemically with clay to make it porous
and granular, thus breaking it up so that it can be tilled.
Unfortunately, it eventually leaches away, leaving heavy, sticky clay.
Thus, you will have to apply more gypsum periodically (every 2-3 years).

My lot is almost 1/5 acre, including the footprint of my house, the
short driveway into my garage, and a patio. Every other year, I apply
approximately 250 pounds of gypsum to my entire garden, front and back,
except for the steep hill at the far back. (I do not apply gypsum to
the hill because I paid a fortune to have it regraded and compacted when
it failed in 2005. Gypsum would undo the compacting and create the risk
of a new failure.) In the years when I do not apply gypsum throughout
my garden, I still apply it to my camellias and azaleas. Here (southern
California) gypsum runs about $9 for a 50-pound sack.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

What about a power aerator or a slitter?

I've got one of these manual aerators, but can't use on the hard patches:
http://hgtv.sndimg.com/HGTV/2012/01/...er_s3x4_lg.jpg

Slitter:
http://hgtv.sndimg.com/HGTV/2012/01/...er_s4x3_lg.jpg


Again, IF YOUR SOIL IS MOSTLY CLAY, you should treat it with gypsum
before trying anything else to improve its tilth.

From your description, I don't think an aerator -- even a power aerator
-- will work on the hardest parts of your soil without prior treatment.
After using gypsum, you will find that an aerator will work very well.
Just be sure you are using the kind that extracts plugs of soil (they
look like dog droppings) and not the kind that merely pokes holes. The
latter will cause more compaction and make things worse.

However, for a first-time treatment, I would recommend rototilling
organic matter into the soil after the gypsum treatment. This will have
long-lasting benefits. While I suggested peat moss, you should also
consider other forms of organic matter such as manure or coarse compost.
I would not add sawdust since it decomposes too quickly and absorbs too
much nitrogen in the process.

The slitter might actually make things worse by compacting the soil.


By the way, I DO NOT have investment in any gypsum mining, processing,
or marketing business. I just know that I have good results from using
gypsum.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

Guv Bob wrote:

How's a good way to break up hard soil? Since it's all level, my
first thought is to soak it good for a couple of days. I wonder if
renting an aerator might also be good.

An aerator won't do much on hard-pack adobe like soil except break the
aerator... aerators only poke holes, some extract plugs, but they are
meant for reasonably soft soil that may be slightly compacted from
foot traffic.

Most of the soil is fairly easy to dig down 2-3 inches, but about 1/4
of the back yard is bare & hard as a rock. When I was taking soil
samples, I had to use a pick to get down that far. But the whole
yard is dry and hard deeper than 3-4 inches.

That kind of soil won't let you grow much, let alone a lawn. First
where are you located? Geographical location plays a large part in
soil conditions. In many parts of the US southwest the soil is indeed
like cured concrete, breaking it up will will only result in it going
back to hard after the first couple of heavy rains... then the best
tack to take is to haul in lots of good top soil and do your planting
in that... it would cost too much to amend the type of soil you
describe and it won't be long any organic amendment will decompose
like it was never there.

On 6/27/2014 2:47 PM, Guv Bob wrote:
"Brooklyn1" wrote in message ...
Guv Bob wrote:

How's a good way to break up hard soil? Since it's all level, my
first thought is to soak it good for a couple of days. I wonder if
renting an aerator might also be good.

An aerator won't do much on hard-pack adobe like soil except break the
aerator... aerators only poke holes, some extract plugs, but they are
meant for reasonably soft soil that may be slightly compacted from
foot traffic.

Most of the soil is fairly easy to dig down 2-3 inches, but about 1/4
of the back yard is bare & hard as a rock. When I was taking soil
samples, I had to use a pick to get down that far. But the whole
yard is dry and hard deeper than 3-4 inches.

That kind of soil won't let you grow much, let alone a lawn. First
where are you located? Geographical location plays a large part in
soil conditions. In many parts of the US southwest the soil is indeed
like cured concrete, breaking it up will will only result in it going
back to hard after the first couple of heavy rains... then the best
tack to take is to haul in lots of good top soil and do your planting
in that... it would cost too much to amend the type of soil you
describe and it won't be long any organic amendment will decompose
like it was never there.


Thanks. So Cal. According to a county site report for a shopping
center in the area, it has a base of older alluvial interbedded silty
clay and clay, overlain by interlayered sandy gravel and silty clay.


Thus, you likely have enough clay that gypsum would be appropriate.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

"Brooklyn1" wrote in message ...
Guv Bob wrote:

How's a good way to break up hard soil? Since it's all level, my
first thought is to soak it good for a couple of days. I wonder if
renting an aerator might also be good.

An aerator won't do much on hard-pack adobe like soil except break the
aerator... aerators only poke holes, some extract plugs, but they are
meant for reasonably soft soil that may be slightly compacted from
foot traffic.

Most of the soil is fairly easy to dig down 2-3 inches, but about 1/4
of the back yard is bare & hard as a rock. When I was taking soil
samples, I had to use a pick to get down that far. But the whole
yard is dry and hard deeper than 3-4 inches.

That kind of soil won't let you grow much, let alone a lawn. First
where are you located? Geographical location plays a large part in
soil conditions. In many parts of the US southwest the soil is indeed
like cured concrete, breaking it up will will only result in it going
back to hard after the first couple of heavy rains... then the best
tack to take is to haul in lots of good top soil and do your planting
in that... it would cost too much to amend the type of soil you
describe and it won't be long any organic amendment will decompose
like it was never there.

Thanks. So Cal. According to a county site report for a shopping center in the area, it has a base of older alluvial interbedded silty clay and clay, overlain by interlayered sandy gravel and silty clay.

On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 16:10:37 -0800, "Guv Bob"
wrote:

"David E. Ross" wrote in message ...
On 6/27/2014 2:47 PM, Guv Bob wrote:
"Brooklyn1" wrote in message ...
Guv Bob wrote:

How's a good way to break up hard soil? Since it's all level, my
first thought is to soak it good for a couple of days. I wonder if
renting an aerator might also be good.

An aerator won't do much on hard-pack adobe like soil except break the
aerator... aerators only poke holes, some extract plugs, but they are
meant for reasonably soft soil that may be slightly compacted from
foot traffic.

Most of the soil is fairly easy to dig down 2-3 inches, but about 1/4
of the back yard is bare & hard as a rock. When I was taking soil
samples, I had to use a pick to get down that far. But the whole
yard is dry and hard deeper than 3-4 inches.

That kind of soil won't let you grow much, let alone a lawn. First
where are you located? Geographical location plays a large part in
soil conditions. In many parts of the US southwest the soil is indeed
like cured concrete, breaking it up will will only result in it going
back to hard after the first couple of heavy rains... then the best
tack to take is to haul in lots of good top soil and do your planting
in that... it would cost too much to amend the type of soil you
describe and it won't be long any organic amendment will decompose
like it was never there.


Thanks. So Cal. According to a county site report for a shopping
center in the area, it has a base of older alluvial interbedded silty
clay and clay, overlain by interlayered sandy gravel and silty clay.


Thus, you likely have enough clay that gypsum would be appropriate.

The charts say all the grasses I have required 6-7pH. Soil is 6.5-7.0 more or less. I thought gypsum would make it alkaline.


Gypsom is a crap shoot for loosening compacted soil regardless but for
certain it will make your soil extremely alkaline and once there will
be near impossible to remediate. Were it me I'd break up the existing
soil as best I can and then find a source for good top soil and
calculate how many cubic yards to put in a six inch depth. I'd be
sure to place landscaping blocks at the down hill perimeters to retain
your topsoil in heavy downpours... it doesn't rain often in So Cal but
when it does it could easily be a deluge that washes away soil, and
that's why the soil there is so **** poor. I lived in So Cal for
several years, I know of what I speak. I had a Greek neighbor when I
lived in Pasadena who would instruct all his visitors to bring as much
top soil as they could from his home state of Ohio for his fig and
olive trees. Where I live now (in the Hudson River valley) I have
some of the best top soil on the planet, I can dig down six feet and
still be into rich black earth.

"David E. Ross" wrote in message ...
On 6/27/2014 2:47 PM, Guv Bob wrote:
"Brooklyn1" wrote in message ...
Guv Bob wrote:

How's a good way to break up hard soil? Since it's all level, my
first thought is to soak it good for a couple of days. I wonder if
renting an aerator might also be good.

An aerator won't do much on hard-pack adobe like soil except break the
aerator... aerators only poke holes, some extract plugs, but they are
meant for reasonably soft soil that may be slightly compacted from
foot traffic.

Most of the soil is fairly easy to dig down 2-3 inches, but about 1/4
of the back yard is bare & hard as a rock. When I was taking soil
samples, I had to use a pick to get down that far. But the whole
yard is dry and hard deeper than 3-4 inches.

That kind of soil won't let you grow much, let alone a lawn. First
where are you located? Geographical location plays a large part in
soil conditions. In many parts of the US southwest the soil is indeed
like cured concrete, breaking it up will will only result in it going
back to hard after the first couple of heavy rains... then the best
tack to take is to haul in lots of good top soil and do your planting
in that... it would cost too much to amend the type of soil you
describe and it won't be long any organic amendment will decompose
like it was never there.


Thanks. So Cal. According to a county site report for a shopping
center in the area, it has a base of older alluvial interbedded silty
clay and clay, overlain by interlayered sandy gravel and silty clay.


Thus, you likely have enough clay that gypsum would be appropriate.

The charts say all the grasses I have required 6-7pH. Soil is 6.5-7.0 more or less. I thought gypsum would make it alkaline.

Guv Bob wrote:
"David E. Ross" wrote in message
...
On 6/27/2014 2:47 PM, Guv Bob wrote:
"Brooklyn1" wrote in message
...
Guv Bob wrote:

How's a good way to break up hard soil? Since it's all level, my
first thought is to soak it good for a couple of days. I wonder
if renting an aerator might also be good.

An aerator won't do much on hard-pack adobe like soil except break
the aerator... aerators only poke holes, some extract plugs, but
they are meant for reasonably soft soil that may be slightly
compacted from foot traffic.

Most of the soil is fairly easy to dig down 2-3 inches, but about
1/4 of the back yard is bare & hard as a rock. When I was taking
soil samples, I had to use a pick to get down that far. But the
whole yard is dry and hard deeper than 3-4 inches.

That kind of soil won't let you grow much, let alone a lawn. First
where are you located? Geographical location plays a large part in
soil conditions. In many parts of the US southwest the soil is
indeed like cured concrete, breaking it up will will only result
in it going back to hard after the first couple of heavy rains...
then the best tack to take is to haul in lots of good top soil and
do your planting in that... it would cost too much to amend the
type of soil you describe and it won't be long any organic
amendment will decompose like it was never there.


Thanks. So Cal. According to a county site report for a shopping
center in the area, it has a base of older alluvial interbedded
silty
clay and clay, overlain by interlayered sandy gravel and silty clay.


Thus, you likely have enough clay that gypsum would be appropriate.

The charts say all the grasses I have required 6-7pH. Soil is
6.5-7.0 more or less. I thought gypsum would make it alkaline.

No it will not alter the pH. As others have said you have a choice.

Quick: bring in topsoil, re-seed or turf in one go, more expensive and more
hard work in a short period, still not a bad solution if you can afford it.

Slow: fix what you have. Gypsum or other clay breaker treatments, adding
organic matter, re-seed progressively. This will work in the long run and
be cheaper but it will take perseverance and a sustained effort.

Which is better depends on you and your situation.

David

In alt.home.lawn.garden Guv Bob wrote:

How's a good way to break up hard soil? Since it's all level, my first thought is to soak it good for a couple of days. I wonder if renting an aerator might also be good.

If your soil is like mine, there's a very narrow range of moisure levels
at which it's workable. I understand local farmers refer to it as "36
hour soil", which is the schedule window for plowing.

Too wet and it's like warm tar, too dry and it's extremely hard. In
the middle, it's rather crumbly. I'd soak a patch and poke it each
day after. _Maybe_ you'll find a day when it's workable.

HTH,

bob prohaska

User Bp wrote:
In alt.home.lawn.garden Guv Bob
wrote:

How's a good way to break up hard soil? Since it's all level, my
first thought is to soak it good for a couple of days. I wonder if
renting an aerator might also be good.

If your soil is like mine, there's a very narrow range of moisure
levels at which it's workable. I understand local farmers refer to it
as "36 hour soil", which is the schedule window for plowing.

Too wet and it's like warm tar, too dry and it's extremely hard. In
the middle, it's rather crumbly. I'd soak a patch and poke it each
day after. _Maybe_ you'll find a day when it's workable.

HTH,

bob prohaska

Hereabouts this is called "Sunday soil", too wet to work on Saturday and too
dry by Monday. The problem with working it on Sunday is that it will always
stay the same, you haven't addressed the problem of why it is so hard on
Monday.

D

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message ...
User Bp wrote:
In alt.home.lawn.garden Guv Bob
wrote:

How's a good way to break up hard soil? Since it's all level, my
first thought is to soak it good for a couple of days. I wonder if
renting an aerator might also be good.

If your soil is like mine, there's a very narrow range of moisure
levels at which it's workable. I understand local farmers refer to it
as "36 hour soil", which is the schedule window for plowing.

Too wet and it's like warm tar, too dry and it's extremely hard. In
the middle, it's rather crumbly. I'd soak a patch and poke it each
day after. _Maybe_ you'll find a day when it's workable.

HTH,

bob prohaska

Hereabouts this is called "Sunday soil", too wet to work on Saturday and too
dry by Monday. The problem with working it on Sunday is that it will always
stay the same, you haven't addressed the problem of why it is so hard on
Monday.

Appreciate all the good info. For breaking up the soil, what about adding a weak solution of detergent as a wetting agent in one of these hose attachments?

http://www.walmart.com/ip/21065376?w...546436&veh=sem