Brynk wrote:

Damage the soil structure?
Please, explain this.

... Tilling wet soil damages the soil structure, and shouldn't be done...




Since this query was posted yesterday and had no responses, I have to
assume there's no generally known good information out there about soil
structure. If that's not the case, lets hear it.

Disclaimer: I'm not a soil scientist nor an expert on soil structure.

My $0.02:

Soil structure is two things. The first is the obvious structu Dig a
hole and you'll pull up loam (hopefully). A little further down it will
be another type of soil, maybe just mineral soil with less organic
content. Further down it might be clay. There are wide local variations
in this kind of structure. The material making up the soil is classified
in "soil associations", which use the organic content, the region of the
sand/silt/clay triangle
(http://web.mit.edu/dryfoo/www/Info/soil-grid.html), and the number of
stones (important here in New England) to differentiate between types of
soil. Surveys of soil associations have been done by the USDA and they
have maps available of most if not all areas for which agriculture is
feasible.

The second is the way the individual soil particles associate with each
other. They may clump together in large lumps or they may not associate
with each other at all, in which cast you have dust. Moisture has a
significant effect on this structure.

Tilling will alter the soil structure, no matter whether it's wet or
dry. However, damage is a subjective thing. If you are tilling down into
the clay level, the alteration may "improve" the soil by increasing
drainage. If the tilling during wet periods contributes to compaction of
the soil it's degrading the soil for purposes of growing things. Tilling
in average to moist soil moisture conditions will loosen the soil and
contribute to drying out. Obviously, what will happen will depend
strongly on the composition of the soil, whether it's high in organic
material, or high in clay, or high in sand.

Here, the terms improvement and degradation are assessed on the basis of
the use of the soil for growing things. If you are gardening (why else
would you be looking in this newsgroup?) the above terms are presented
for you. If you think that natural soil structure should be preserved
above all, then you are probably a hunter-gatherer and your outlook is
vastly different from most people on the planet. Please give us your
opinions.

Thanks Dwight
I wasn't sure how tilling wet could "damage" soil structure
I guess it could temporarily clump the soil, but I don't think that would be
classified as "damage"

There have been seasons when continual rain and my tardy soil prep resulted
in till wet or delay planting.

--

Barry


"Dwight Sipler" wrote in message
...
Brynk wrote:

Damage the soil structure?
Please, explain this.

... Tilling wet soil damages the soil structure, and shouldn't be
done...




Since this query was posted yesterday and had no responses, I have to
assume there's no generally known good information out there about soil
structure. If that's not the case, lets hear it.

Disclaimer: I'm not a soil scientist nor an expert on soil structure.

My $0.02:

Soil structure is two things. The first is the obvious structu Dig a
hole and you'll pull up loam (hopefully). A little further down it will
be another type of soil, maybe just mineral soil with less organic
content. Further down it might be clay. There are wide local variations
in this kind of structure. The material making up the soil is classified
in "soil associations", which use the organic content, the region of the
sand/silt/clay triangle
(http://web.mit.edu/dryfoo/www/Info/soil-grid.html), and the number of
stones (important here in New England) to differentiate between types of
soil. Surveys of soil associations have been done by the USDA and they
have maps available of most if not all areas for which agriculture is
feasible.

The second is the way the individual soil particles associate with each
other. They may clump together in large lumps or they may not associate
with each other at all, in which cast you have dust. Moisture has a
significant effect on this structure.

Tilling will alter the soil structure, no matter whether it's wet or
dry. However, damage is a subjective thing. If you are tilling down into
the clay level, the alteration may "improve" the soil by increasing
drainage. If the tilling during wet periods contributes to compaction of
the soil it's degrading the soil for purposes of growing things. Tilling
in average to moist soil moisture conditions will loosen the soil and
contribute to drying out. Obviously, what will happen will depend
strongly on the composition of the soil, whether it's high in organic
material, or high in clay, or high in sand.

Here, the terms improvement and degradation are assessed on the basis of
the use of the soil for growing things. If you are gardening (why else
would you be looking in this newsgroup?) the above terms are presented
for you. If you think that natural soil structure should be preserved
above all, then you are probably a hunter-gatherer and your outlook is
vastly different from most people on the planet. Please give us your
opinions.

Brynk wrote:
...There have been seasons when continual rain and my tardy soil prep resulted
in till wet or delay planting...


Delaying planting isn't all that bad an option. It is not necessary to
get everything in at once. Nights are generally cool in the spring, so
the first stuff in is fairly slow, and things that are planted later can
catch up when the weather warms.

Brynk wrote:

Thanks Dwight
I wasn't sure how tilling wet could "damage" soil structure
I guess it could temporarily clump the soil, but I don't think that would be
classified as "damage"

There have been seasons when continual rain and my tardy soil prep resulted
in till wet or delay planting.

Working with wet soil (soil that is close to its water saturation level),
whether using a tiller or working by hand with with regular garden tools, leads
to compaction or the loss of pore space between soil particles. This reduces the
amount of oxygen in the soil and complicates drainage as well as making the soil
environment less hospitable to microorganisms, resulting in poor plant growth.
That is why it is recommended that one not work (or even walk on or allow
livestock to graze on) wet soils.

There are scores of articles addressing this issue if one does a simple search
on google - it is a pretty widely recognized phenomenon.

pam - gardengal

Pam wrote:

...Working with wet soil (soil that is close to its water saturation level),
whether using a tiller or working by hand with with regular garden tools, leads
to compaction or the loss of pore space between soil particles. This reduces the
amount of oxygen in the soil and complicates drainage as well as making the soil
environment less hospitable to microorganisms, resulting in poor plant growth.
That is why it is recommended that one not work (or even walk on or allow
livestock to graze on) wet soils...



I agree with this. In addition, natural processes such as rain will
compact soil without the need for someone walking over it. However, I
would not describe the compaction as "damage", since it is correctable
once the soil dries out a bit. Plant roots can overcome moderate
compaction in good garden soils.

Subsoil compaction occurs even when walking in an apparently dry garden,
since the moisture level below ground can be significant. However, the
effect of walking is spread out as you go down further below the
surface, so the deep compaction will be a long-term thing rather than
the kind of compaction you can get on the surface when it's wet.

Clumping of wet garden soil can be remediated by tillage in dry
conditions. If the area under the plants has been compacted, tillage
next to the plants can restore drainage for proper growth.

Thanks Pam,

I guess I should clarify my comments lest I be tossed into gardener's hell
for planting in clumped soilg

For ten years I've tilled in at least 18 inches of horse manure into soil
that was originally glacial till. I have a fairly large area to do (approx
1600 sq ft) and to find enuf dry periods to do the rough, time consuming
tilling in the spring is tough.

I often end up with some clumping but before I'll plant, I'll do a final
tilling. My issue was that the term "damage" sounded irreparable.

--

Barry


"Pam" wrote in message
...


Brynk wrote:

Thanks Dwight
I wasn't sure how tilling wet could "damage" soil structure
I guess it could temporarily clump the soil, but I don't think that
would be
classified as "damage"

There have been seasons when continual rain and my tardy soil prep
resulted
in till wet or delay planting.

Working with wet soil (soil that is close to its water saturation level),
whether using a tiller or working by hand with with regular garden tools,
leads
to compaction or the loss of pore space between soil particles. This
reduces the
amount of oxygen in the soil and complicates drainage as well as making
the soil
environment less hospitable to microorganisms, resulting in poor plant
growth.
That is why it is recommended that one not work (or even walk on or allow
livestock to graze on) wet soils.

There are scores of articles addressing this issue if one does a simple
search
on google - it is a pretty widely recognized phenomenon.

pam - gardengal