Hi,

We have about a 100' x 100' vegetable garden area that we will not be able
to plant for the next 1 or 2 years. It's a bigger area than we garden
because we had to cut the pace out in the woods.

Anyway, as I said, various other obligations have arisen that will prevent
us from using this garden. I would like to do something that is relatively
low on maintenance that will prevent the area from getting overgrown with
weeds and returning back to the forest. I was thinking of some heavy duty,
very large sheets of black plastic, but I am not sure where to get such
large sheets. Also though of planting with a cover plant of some type
(clover?) that might enrich the soil. Would prefer not to routinely spray
with something like Round-up, but if that's the best solution, then I might
be persuaded.

Any suggestions?

TIA,

Bart

Something fairly easy to seed would be annual Rye Grass. People use it to
seed over warm season grasses that go dormant in the winter here in the
south. It dies off eventually and then you till it in to add nitrogen to
the soil. Other cover crops that can also be used are hairy vetch,
buckwheat, clover, and alfalfa. Some people plant alfalfa and clover
between rows of corn because it improves soil fertility by "fixing"
nitrogen. This means that with the help of special bacteria in the soil,
their roots can change nitrogen gas from the air into nitrogen compounds
plant roots can use.

Another option would be to cover with a black plastic sheeting and pin it
down until ready to remove. Hardware stores should carry this. You can
mulch the area with grass clippings (got any neighbors who bag and get rid
of clippings?). Newspaper, leaves or pine needles could be used. All of
these mulches will slowly break down and you can till them in when ready.
If you want to try a cover crop, go to a local garden center/nursery and ask
for seeds for these. You probably won't find them in Home Depot or Lowe's.
You could also do a search on Burpee, Gurney's, or on Google for cover crop
seeds. Good luck.

Penny
Zone 7b - North Carolina
"BRN" wrote in message
...
Hi,

We have about a 100' x 100' vegetable garden area that we will not be able
to plant for the next 1 or 2 years. It's a bigger area than we garden
because we had to cut the pace out in the woods.

Anyway, as I said, various other obligations have arisen that will prevent
us from using this garden. I would like to do something that is
relatively
low on maintenance that will prevent the area from getting overgrown with
weeds and returning back to the forest. I was thinking of some heavy
duty,
very large sheets of black plastic, but I am not sure where to get such
large sheets. Also though of planting with a cover plant of some type
(clover?) that might enrich the soil. Would prefer not to routinely spray
with something like Round-up, but if that's the best solution, then I
might
be persuaded.

Any suggestions?

TIA,

Bart

Unless your other hobby is cancer, you should not spray Round-Up in a place
where you might grow food crops in your lifetime. A bullet in the head would
be more pleasant.

On Tue, 27 May 2003 17:08:39 GMT, Doug Kanter wrote:
| Unless your other hobby is cancer, you should not spray Round-Up in a place
| where you might grow food crops in your lifetime. A bullet in the head would
| be more pleasant.

do you have any data on this? or is this just supposition on your part? i'm
not doubting you, mind you, i'd just be interested in how you came to this
matter-of-fact conclusion...

"xcitor" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 May 2003 17:08:39 GMT, Doug Kanter
wrote:
| Unless your other hobby is cancer, you should not spray Round-Up in a
place
| where you might grow food crops in your lifetime. A bullet in the head
would
| be more pleasant.

do you have any data on this? or is this just supposition on your part?
i'm
not doubting you, mind you, i'd just be interested in how you came to this
matter-of-fact conclusion...

Short story: 30 years of gardening, and reading everything I can get my
hands on.

Long story:

Lots of reading, and basic knowledge of research methods and statistics are
all you need to understand the issue.

1) When testing a new medicine for efficacy and safety, results are not
valid (or legal) until the stuff has been administered to a large enough
target population. Further, a drug company cannot test a medicine on rats,
and then claim it's safe for humans, simply because we're both mammals. For
medicines, this is considered common sense.

2) No common sense: Chemical companies insist that certain agricultural
applications are safe for human food crops, but according to good practices,
as described in #1, it is impossible for them to do so. They cannot test on
a human population. In reality, they do: You and I are the test population.
Unfortunately, nobody is collecting the results and it's not a controlled
study.

3) I believe it was 1970 when the federal government eliminated the
requirement that pesticides fully disclose inert ingredients, and for
manufacturers to test them, in addition to the active ingredients. These
ingredients are the ones which help keep the active chemicals in suspension,
and help them stick to whatever you're spraying them on. They often contain
petroleum distillates whose effects are not known. Check some containers
next time you're browsing chemicals. You'll find that these inert
ingredients usually comprise the bulk of what you're applying to your
garden.

4) Because too many people believe labels, and do no further research, they
believe that "naturally derived" is the same as "natural". So, they believe
that pyrethrin is identical to pyrethrum. The latter comes from flowers, but
is rarely found in pure form without "inert" ingredients. The former has
been doctored, and MAY be less safe, but nobody really knows. Even the pure
form of pyrethrum is probably unsafe for consumption.

5) Pesticides come back to haunt you in lots of ways. Example: Much of it
ends up in storm sewers where it drains into water supplies. You're treated
to low doses of it constantly. It also ends up in the fish you eat, no
matter where it comes from. (No...farm-raised doesn't mean "pure"....)

You decide. By the way, do you know which "supermarket crops" are the most
heavily sprayed? Carrots (not really sprayed, but gassed or powdered") and
strawberries. Kids love 'em. Yum.

There are better ways to deal with bugs.

- For plants whose leaves you don't eat, a few holes is not going to kill
them. Don't worry about the bugs.

- Many bugs are here for a short time, and then gone. If they nail a few
peppers, throw away those peppers and watch the remaining ones. There's an
excellent chance you won't see those bugs at another point in the season.
Sometimes, I pinch the flowers off a portion of my pepper plants until later
in the season, so they'll make fruit at a time when there may be less pests.

- Losing 20% of your lettuce, spinach, or swiss chard? Plant 20% extra for
the bugs. Cost: a nickle?

Doug Kanter wrote:

- Losing 20% of your lettuce, spinach, or swiss chard? Plant 20% extra for
the bugs. Cost: a nickle?

Thought -- use lettuce as a late cover crop. Seeds are cheap, and young plants
will overwinter, producing a bumper crop in early April. No need to dedicate
rows, either.

Doug Kanter wrote:

"xcitor" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 May 2003 17:08:39 GMT, Doug Kanter
wrote:
| Unless your other hobby is cancer, you should not spray Round-Up in a
place
| where you might grow food crops in your lifetime. A bullet in the head
would
| be more pleasant.

do you have any data on this? or is this just supposition on your part?
i'm
not doubting you, mind you, i'd just be interested in how you came to this
matter-of-fact conclusion...


Short answer: it is just supposition on his part. Because there are no human
trials proving RoundUp is safe, he is assuming it is a carcinogen.



Short story: 30 years of gardening, and reading everything I can get my
hands on.

Long story:

Lots of reading, and basic knowledge of research methods and statistics are
all you need to understand the issue.

1) When testing a new medicine for efficacy and safety, results are not
valid (or legal) until the stuff has been administered to a large enough
target population. Further, a drug company cannot test a medicine on rats,
and then claim it's safe for humans, simply because we're both mammals. For
medicines, this is considered common sense.

2) No common sense: Chemical companies insist that certain agricultural
applications are safe for human food crops, but according to good practices,
as described in #1, it is impossible for them to do so. They cannot test on
a human population. In reality, they do: You and I are the test population.
Unfortunately, nobody is collecting the results and it's not a controlled
study.

3) I believe it was 1970 when the federal government eliminated the
requirement that pesticides fully disclose inert ingredients, and for
manufacturers to test them, in addition to the active ingredients. These
ingredients are the ones which help keep the active chemicals in suspension,
and help them stick to whatever you're spraying them on. They often contain
petroleum distillates whose effects are not known. Check some containers
next time you're browsing chemicals. You'll find that these inert
ingredients usually comprise the bulk of what you're applying to your
garden.

4) Because too many people believe labels, and do no further research, they
believe that "naturally derived" is the same as "natural". So, they believe
that pyrethrin is identical to pyrethrum. The latter comes from flowers, but
is rarely found in pure form without "inert" ingredients. The former has
been doctored, and MAY be less safe, but nobody really knows. Even the pure
form of pyrethrum is probably unsafe for consumption.

5) Pesticides come back to haunt you in lots of ways. Example: Much of it
ends up in storm sewers where it drains into water supplies. You're treated
to low doses of it constantly. It also ends up in the fish you eat, no
matter where it comes from. (No...farm-raised doesn't mean "pure"....)

You decide. By the way, do you know which "supermarket crops" are the most
heavily sprayed? Carrots (not really sprayed, but gassed or powdered") and
strawberries. Kids love 'em. Yum.

There are better ways to deal with bugs.

- For plants whose leaves you don't eat, a few holes is not going to kill
them. Don't worry about the bugs.

- Many bugs are here for a short time, and then gone. If they nail a few
peppers, throw away those peppers and watch the remaining ones. There's an
excellent chance you won't see those bugs at another point in the season.
Sometimes, I pinch the flowers off a portion of my pepper plants until later
in the season, so they'll make fruit at a time when there may be less pests.

- Losing 20% of your lettuce, spinach, or swiss chard? Plant 20% extra for
the bugs. Cost: a nickle?

"bob skibbens" wrote in message
...


Short answer: it is just supposition on his part. Because there are no
human
trials proving RoundUp is safe, he is assuming it is a carcinogen.



I never claimed it was anything BUT supposition. That is exactly what the
manufacturers are guilty of, too, and unless they find a population willing
to be part of a valid study, this will not change anytime soon.