I have 6 trees in my small yard, and a 40 year old grape vine. I would like
to stop mowing around each. The typical Ohio solution is to mulch around
trees. I know of no typical grape vine solution. But I don't want mulch;
I'd like to do something a little different. Has anyone any suggestions? I
am considering gravel - not the driveway grade but the pond grade small,
smooth marble. Any opinions on that? I'll need a retaining solution to
keep the gravel from rolling away. Any suggestions?

How about cocoa shell mulch? I haven't used it myself, but I've seen it used
on the Victory Garden a couple years go, and it looked interesting. You're
also not killing any trees.

Here's one website I found that described it, and if you do a google on
"cocoa shell mulch" you'll get plenty of others.

http://www.vitasoil.com/cocoa%20main.htm

Hope that helps,

Ali

"jel" wrote in message
...
I have 6 trees in my small yard, and a 40 year old grape vine. I would
like
to stop mowing around each. The typical Ohio solution is to mulch around
trees. I know of no typical grape vine solution. But I don't want mulch;
I'd like to do something a little different. Has anyone any suggestions?
I
am considering gravel - not the driveway grade but the pond grade small,
smooth marble. Any opinions on that? I'll need a retaining solution to
keep the gravel from rolling away. Any suggestions?

Oh, aditionally, I *have* encountered gravel and I find any form quite
annoying, though it'd probably be less annoying around something like a
tree. It's just a nusance though if you want to get in to amend the soil or
whatever, because you have to scrape the stuff back, etc. With mulch, no
harm if some of it gets mixed in with the soil, as it breaks down anyway.

Ali



"Ali" wrote in message
...
How about cocoa shell mulch? I haven't used it myself, but I've seen it
used
on the Victory Garden a couple years go, and it looked interesting. You're
also not killing any trees.

Here's one website I found that described it, and if you do a google on
"cocoa shell mulch" you'll get plenty of others.

http://www.vitasoil.com/cocoa%20main.htm

Hope that helps,

Ali

"jel" wrote in message
...
I have 6 trees in my small yard, and a 40 year old grape vine. I would
like
to stop mowing around each. The typical Ohio solution is to mulch
around
trees. I know of no typical grape vine solution. But I don't want
mulch;
I'd like to do something a little different. Has anyone any
suggestions?
I
am considering gravel - not the driveway grade but the pond grade small,
smooth marble. Any opinions on that? I'll need a retaining solution to
keep the gravel from rolling away. Any suggestions?

"Ali" wrote in
:

Oh, aditionally, I *have* encountered gravel and I find any form quite
annoying, though it'd probably be less annoying around something like
a tree. It's just a nusance though if you want to get in to amend the
soil or whatever, because you have to scrape the stuff back, etc. With
mulch, no harm if some of it gets mixed in with the soil, as it breaks
down anyway.

Ali

if you are going to use gravel or any kind of mulch (stone or otherwise),
put down a layer of landscape fabric (or "geotextile") first. It won't
keep all the weeds/grass from coming through, but with the gravel on top,
it should be easy to pick off any that are intent on busting out. with
the fabric in place, it should be easier to remove the gravel in case you
want to amend the soil underneath at a later date. To keep the gravel
from rolling away, make a mini retaining wall or use edging. all this
will probably cost $$$$$.

-- Salty

In article , "Ali"
wrote:

How about cocoa shell mulch? I haven't used it myself, but I've seen it used
on the Victory Garden a couple years go, and it looked interesting. You're
also not killing any trees.

That stuff gets moldy too easily. Emotionally weird dogs could also eat it
& can be poisoned, but even if it weren't risky to dogs, the fact is, if
you lay it down thick enough to suppress weeds, that's also thick enough
to become a mold spore factory.

I used it once & loved the odor when it was fresh. When it went all too
soon moldy, I churned it into the earth & it made a nice organic
ammendment, but as a surface mulch it was just a waste of money.

-paghat the ratgirl

Here's one website I found that described it, and if you do a google on
"cocoa shell mulch" you'll get plenty of others.

http://www.vitasoil.com/cocoa%20main.htm

Hope that helps,

Ali

"jel" wrote in message
...
I have 6 trees in my small yard, and a 40 year old grape vine. I would
like
to stop mowing around each. The typical Ohio solution is to mulch around
trees. I know of no typical grape vine solution. But I don't want mulch;
I'd like to do something a little different. Has anyone any suggestions?
I
am considering gravel - not the driveway grade but the pond grade small,
smooth marble. Any opinions on that? I'll need a retaining solution to
keep the gravel from rolling away. Any suggestions?



--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

Salty Thumb wrote:
"Ali" wrote in
:


Oh, aditionally, I *have* encountered gravel and I find any form quite
annoying, though it'd probably be less annoying around something like
a tree. It's just a nusance though if you want to get in to amend the
soil or whatever, because you have to scrape the stuff back, etc. With
mulch, no harm if some of it gets mixed in with the soil, as it breaks
down anyway.

Ali


if you are going to use gravel or any kind of mulch (stone or otherwise),
put down a layer of landscape fabric (or "geotextile") first. It won't
keep all the weeds/grass from coming through, but with the gravel on top,
it should be easy to pick off any that are intent on busting out. with
the fabric in place, it should be easier to remove the gravel in case you
want to amend the soil underneath at a later date. To keep the gravel
from rolling away, make a mini retaining wall or use edging. all this
will probably cost $$$$$.

-- Salty

Salty, have you personally *used* landscape fabric and had the desired
results, or did you just see it on TV? Landscape fabric is from hell.
Tree feeder roots grow up through it. Turfgrass encroaches over the
edges and then sends roots down through it. Weeds will germinate in
whatever covers it, and eventually send roots down through it also
unless you pull them promptly. When you change your mind and decide to
yank out the fabric a year or two later, it will be stuck fast by
several inches of decomposed mulch/grass/weed gunk and a million
infinitesimal feeder roots occupying every individual pore in the
fabric, forcing you to dig it out.

This has been my personal experience, plus the local gardening
columnists and extension agents agree with me, as well as a lot
of people in this newsgroup.

- Alex

paghat wrote:

In article , "Ali"
wrote:


How about cocoa shell mulch? I haven't used it myself, but I've seen it used
on the Victory Garden a couple years go, and it looked interesting. You're
also not killing any trees.


That stuff gets moldy too easily. Emotionally weird dogs could also eat it
& can be poisoned, but even if it weren't risky to dogs, the fact is, if
you lay it down thick enough to suppress weeds, that's also thick enough
to become a mold spore factory.

I used it once & loved the odor when it was fresh. When it went all too
soon moldy, I churned it into the earth & it made a nice organic
ammendment, but as a surface mulch it was just a waste of money.

-paghat the ratgirl


Paghat is right about the mold. (It even warns you right on the bag,
with some brands.) I would also add that when the cocoa shells get
throroughly soaking wet, and then baked dry in the sun, they form a
nice crispy-crackly matted sheet which then needs to be fluffed up
in order to let air and water pass again.

It sure smells nice though!

- Alex

Alexander Pensky wrote in
:

Salty, have you personally *used* landscape fabric and had the desired
results, or did you just see it on TV? Landscape fabric is from hell.
Tree feeder roots grow up through it. Turfgrass encroaches over the
edges and then sends roots down through it. Weeds will germinate in
whatever covers it, and eventually send roots down through it also
unless you pull them promptly. When you change your mind and decide
to yank out the fabric a year or two later, it will be stuck fast by
several inches of decomposed mulch/grass/weed gunk and a million
infinitesimal feeder roots occupying every individual pore in the
fabric, forcing you to dig it out.

Yes, I've got landscape fabric in two beds in front of my house. They're
covered with pine bark nugget mulch, 1-2" thick. One borders a sidewalk,
so there's no encroachment. The other is next to the lawn and is
bordered with ~3.5" 'L' edging. It's been about 2 years in place now.
Before I installed it, the beds were over grown with weeds and grass.
Now the only problems I have are little onion looking shoots popping
through occasionally on the sidewalk bed, and the occasional dandelion
that tries to squat in holes made for flowers. Yes sometimes something
grows on the surface, but the roots don't pentrate the fabric deeply and
are easily picked off.

I did not use any chemicals or otherwise kill the vegetation prior to
preparing the beds. One bed is Dupont (NOT the professional grey stuff)
and the other is probably K-gro brand from K-mart. Both black, around
$10 for 3x50' each. Oh yeah, turning over the mulch, I often see slugs,
but apparently I'm growing anything they especially like to eat.

This has been my personal experience, plus the local gardening
columnists and extension agents agree with me, as well as a lot
of people in this newsgroup.

I put in some new holes for flowers recently I and did not see any of the
matting you describe. Southeastern Virginia. There are no trees in the
area. North facing.

I wonder what you are doing that you have so many problems. My only
guess is you're not covering the fabric with a sufficent layer of mulch
or you have particularly resilient flora in your area. As for people
supporting my assertions, try searching in sci.engr.civil for
"geotextile".

-- Salty

Salty Thumb wrote:
Alexander Pensky wrote in
:

Salty, have you personally *used* landscape fabric and had the desired
results, or did you just see it on TV? Landscape fabric is from hell.
Tree feeder roots grow up through it. Turfgrass encroaches over the
edges and then sends roots down through it. Weeds will germinate in
whatever covers it, and eventually send roots down through it also
unless you pull them promptly. [...]

Yes, I've got landscape fabric in two beds in front of my house. They're
covered with pine bark nugget mulch, 1-2" thick. One borders a sidewalk,
so there's no encroachment. The other is next to the lawn and is
bordered with ~3.5" 'L' edging. It's been about 2 years in place now.
Before I installed it, the beds were over grown with weeds and grass.
Now the only problems I have are little onion looking shoots popping
through occasionally on the sidewalk bed, and the occasional dandelion
that tries to squat in holes made for flowers. [...]

Keep an eye on the "little onion looking shoots" and let me know how
they're doing in a couple more years. You may change your mind. My
beds covered with landscape fabric became seriously infested with
those onions. You have to dig out the bulbs which are about 5 in.
below the surface. With the fabric, you can't do that.


I put in some new holes for flowers recently I and did not see any of the
matting you describe. Southeastern Virginia. There are no trees in the
area. North facing.

Yeah, I didn't have those problems along the north side of the building
either. But that's because nothing much grows on the north side anyway;
not enough sun. So it matters little whether you use the fabric there.


- Alex

That was interesting to learn about the dog issue... I would have thought
they'd have to eat quite a bit to get any of the harmful affects of the
bean, but then I guess some dogs will do crazy stuff.

As for mold, I'd have to argue that many types of mulch are risky for that,
and other problems. I haven't used it for a while now, because there no room
or need for it any more, but it's really tempting when you've got big spaces
between developing plants. If your situation isn't too soggy, and you need
to mulch, it can be used with care, I think.

Though I just had a thought though on a possible non-mulch/stone solution.
It was filed in my head under lawn alternatives, but you *could* get a good
bit of one of the low creeping thyme. (Read the labels on what you get,
since there are a lot of different thymes, and you can get one that *does*
need trimming). Break it gently into plugs and plant them around where you
want it to spread, and use that to replace the grass. Get the right ones and
you don't have to mow that, it's pretty, and smells nice. And once it gets
established, it's pretty good at choking out any grass and weeds that want
to jump in. You can even make designs with different types of thyme. Here's
an article I found on thyme lawns:
http://www.highcountrygardens.com/articles/thyme.html

I've got it planted in a troublesome corner close to the road, and it's
spread out nicely between the rocks. Does well in very difficult places, and
bad soil as I've experienced it. Should be fine anywhere you'd lay down
grass. As for a grapevine, might want to check with someone more experienced
with vine growing, to see if the vine wouldn't mind something growing close
up to it...

Hope that helps,

Ali


"paghat" wrote in message
news
In article , "Ali"
wrote:

How about cocoa shell mulch? I haven't used it myself, but I've seen it
used
on the Victory Garden a couple years go, and it looked interesting.
You're
also not killing any trees.

That stuff gets moldy too easily. Emotionally weird dogs could also eat it
& can be poisoned, but even if it weren't risky to dogs, the fact is, if
you lay it down thick enough to suppress weeds, that's also thick enough
to become a mold spore factory.

I used it once & loved the odor when it was fresh. When it went all too
soon moldy, I churned it into the earth & it made a nice organic
ammendment, but as a surface mulch it was just a waste of money.

-paghat the ratgirl

Here's one website I found that described it, and if you do a google on
"cocoa shell mulch" you'll get plenty of others.

http://www.vitasoil.com/cocoa%20main.htm

Hope that helps,

Ali

"jel" wrote in message
...
I have 6 trees in my small yard, and a 40 year old grape vine. I
would
like
to stop mowing around each. The typical Ohio solution is to mulch
around
trees. I know of no typical grape vine solution. But I don't want
mulch;
I'd like to do something a little different. Has anyone any
suggestions?
I
am considering gravel - not the driveway grade but the pond grade
small,
smooth marble. Any opinions on that? I'll need a retaining solution
to
keep the gravel from rolling away. Any suggestions?



--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

Alexander Pensky wrote in
:

Keep an eye on the "little onion looking shoots" and let me know how
they're doing in a couple more years. You may change your mind. My
beds covered with landscape fabric became seriously infested with
those onions. You have to dig out the bulbs which are about 5 in.
below the surface. With the fabric, you can't do that.

I took a look outside and there were no signs of the little onion looking
shoots which I had promptly snipped last year. Are they dormant this
time of year? Where do you suppose yours got the energy to keep
spreading?

I put in some new holes for flowers recently I and did not see any of
the matting you describe. Southeastern Virginia. There are no trees
in the area. North facing.

Yeah, I didn't have those problems along the north side of the
building either. But that's because nothing much grows on the north
side anyway; not enough sun. So it matters little whether you use the
fabric there.

The north side of my house gets enough sun to grow plenty of weeds. Now
that I've put the landscape fabric in place, there are plenty of flowers
with little to no maintenance.

-- Salty

Salty Thumb wrote:
Alexander Pensky wrote in
:


Keep an eye on the "little onion looking shoots" and let me know how
they're doing in a couple more years. You may change your mind. My
beds covered with landscape fabric became seriously infested with
those onions. You have to dig out the bulbs which are about 5 in.
below the surface. With the fabric, you can't do that.


I took a look outside and there were no signs of the little onion looking
shoots which I had promptly snipped last year. Are they dormant this
time of year? Where do you suppose yours got the energy to keep
spreading?

Yes, they are dormant now. The shoots are mostly gone by mid-May up
here in Ohio, so probably a month or two earlier where you are.

I don't know where they get their energy. Apparently if the shoots
are up for even a few days, it feeds the bulbs enough so that
they don't die and keep trying again, even though the shoots have
been pulled. If I just pull the shoots, they will resprout two or
three times, until the weather gets too hot for them.

When I dig out the bulbs, there are many -- dozens -- but they
are mostly tiny, about 2-3 mm diameter. It's amazing how much
green top can come from such a tiny bulb and roots!

Yours may be a different kind of onion, or maybe they don't
spread so much in the hotter climate. Maybe you won't have
the problems with them that I did.

- Alex

Ditto on the cocoa shells.
Damp spots remain moldly all summer. Also if it is loose in spots (fluffed
up or newly laid), a strong wind blows it around, or people, pets etc
walking on it tracks it around; a real nuisance.
Also, both my wife and I found the smell to be too strong, especially when
damp.
I can't imagine why anyone uses the stuff.

"Alexander Pensky" wrote in message
...
paghat wrote:

In article , "Ali"
wrote:


How about cocoa shell mulch? I haven't used it myself, but I've seen it
used
on the Victory Garden a couple years go, and it looked interesting.
You're
also not killing any trees.


That stuff gets moldy too easily. Emotionally weird dogs could also eat
it
& can be poisoned, but even if it weren't risky to dogs, the fact is, if
you lay it down thick enough to suppress weeds, that's also thick enough
to become a mold spore factory.

I used it once & loved the odor when it was fresh. When it went all too
soon moldy, I churned it into the earth & it made a nice organic
ammendment, but as a surface mulch it was just a waste of money.

-paghat the ratgirl


Paghat is right about the mold. (It even warns you right on the bag,
with some brands.) I would also add that when the cocoa shells get
throroughly soaking wet, and then baked dry in the sun, they form a
nice crispy-crackly matted sheet which then needs to be fluffed up
in order to let air and water pass again.

It sure smells nice though!

- Alex

Alexander Pensky wrote:
Salty Thumb wrote:

Alexander Pensky wrote in
:

Keep an eye on the "little onion looking shoots" and let me know how
they're doing in a couple more years. You may change your mind. My
beds covered with landscape fabric became seriously infested with
those onions. You have to dig out the bulbs which are about 5 in.
below the surface. With the fabric, you can't do that.



I took a look outside and there were no signs of the little onion
looking shoots which I had promptly snipped last year. Are they
dormant this time of year? Where do you suppose yours got the energy
to keep spreading?


Yes, they are dormant now. The shoots are mostly gone by mid-May up
here in Ohio, so probably a month or two earlier where you are.

I don't know where they get their energy. Apparently if the shoots
are up for even a few days, it feeds the bulbs enough so that
they don't die and keep trying again, even though the shoots have
been pulled. If I just pull the shoots, they will resprout two or
three times, until the weather gets too hot for them.

When I dig out the bulbs, there are many -- dozens -- but they
are mostly tiny, about 2-3 mm diameter. It's amazing how much
green top can come from such a tiny bulb and roots!

Yours may be a different kind of onion, or maybe they don't
spread so much in the hotter climate. Maybe you won't have
the problems with them that I did.

- Alex

Is this Star of Bethlehem? Tall chive-like leaves and white flowers?
They do die back after blooming, we have them all over.

Janine

jrstark wrote in news:VUfNa.35049$Xm3.7431
@sccrnsc02:

Alexander Pensky wrote:

Yes, they are dormant now. The shoots are mostly gone by mid-May up
here in Ohio, so probably a month or two earlier where you are.

I don't know where they get their energy. Apparently if the shoots
are up for even a few days, it feeds the bulbs enough so that
they don't die and keep trying again, even though the shoots have
been pulled. If I just pull the shoots, they will resprout two or
three times, until the weather gets too hot for them.

When I dig out the bulbs, there are many -- dozens -- but they
are mostly tiny, about 2-3 mm diameter. It's amazing how much
green top can come from such a tiny bulb and roots!

Yours may be a different kind of onion, or maybe they don't
spread so much in the hotter climate. Maybe you won't have
the problems with them that I did.

- Alex

Is this Star of Bethlehem? Tall chive-like leaves and white flowers?
They do die back after blooming, we have them all over.

Janine


I don't know what mine were. I think they smelled like onions or chives,
don't really remember. Foliage consisted of single stalk, definitely
similar to wild onions I have seen, but thin, guessing 1-2 millimeters in
thickness even at the base. After they got about 6" tall, I snipped them
low and probably pulled the landscape fabric back over them (so they
would have to grow narrow tips to pierce the fabric again). Could be
cold weather plants like Alex said, today going be in the 90s here!
Never saw the flowers. Maybe they are still there or the slugs got them
for all I know.

Thanks to Alex for the heads-up, I'll keep a look out for them after it
gets cooler. Everybody have a nice holiday.

-- Salty