Thanks David. I'll have to think on that. The way things are going, I
might not have an opportunity to do much digging before the ground get's
hard and miserable to work. Whether I till or not, I'll be sure to have
black plastic on all winter.

"David J Bockman" wrote in message
...
Hi Joe,

There is a school of thought (and a very viable one) that suggests doing
away with double digging *or* tilling and simply amending, amending,
amending. The 'don't till' school says that tilling destroys or seriously
harms existing beneficial bacteria and in general, the tilth and aeration
of
the soil. Also, tilling will disturb the tens of thousands of weed seeds
laying dormant and waiting to be brought closer to the surface to
germinate.

I have to admit, I was skeptical, but after laying down an enormous amout
of
organic material along two sides of my property (approximately 80 cubic
yards), I'm a firm believer. About a year later the organic material had
filtered down at least 10 inches, with abundant earthworms moving between
the organic and hardpan clay layers as well. I used a combination of wood
chips, shredded leaves, bark, whatever it was that the city in which I
live
dumped in my driveway.

If the project were mine, I'd lay down clear or black plastic sheeting for
a
few weeks/months, which would cook not only any existing weeds but also
their seeds... then amend the heck out of it and perhaps lay downa green
cover such as winter rye, mustard, clover, etc. In the spring you can turn
under all that great green plant material and plant in your garden,
amending
regularly with good stuff such as pine needles, manure, inert straw, grass
clippings, shredded leaves, etc.

Just my $0.02,

Dave

PS the grass doesn't die beneath snow cover because there is still a
suprising about of oxygen amongst the snowpack, as well as light.


"Joe98" wrote in message
...
Putting in my first organic vegetable garden next year, so forgive me if
my
questions are a little naive. I'm trying to get everything tilled up
now
and let it rest all winter. I've skimmed several books, one of which
mentioned "Double Digging" tilling. Here's a parphrasing of the
process:

Dig a 1 foot trench down the long side of the garden. Keep the top soil
in
the garden, but take the rest and throw it in a wheel barrow. After
finishing the trench, go back and dig down another foot of subsoil and
put
it in the wheel barrow. (Sounds like a big wheel barrow). Mix the
subsoil
with peat moss and compost before putting it back in the garden. Make
the
mixture one third peat moss plus two thirds compost, plus one part
subsoil.
Rake the top soil back into the trench, then add the new subsoil mix on
top.
Dig another 1 foot trench and repeat untill garden is all tilled. Tamp
down
when finished. Expect bed to be about three inches higher when
finished.
Wait at least a month before planting.

Bascially, I wanted to ask the group if this seems like a sound method.
I'm
in western PA and my soil tends to be on the clay side. I don't think
I'll
go as deep as two feet, but because the garden area is new, I do plan to
go
deeper than one would for standard tilling. In particular, does the mix
sound right? BTW, when they say peat moss, am I to assume they mean
peat
hummus? And for compost, I expect to use mostly manure (bags). Is it
reasonable to assume the bed will only be rasied 3 inches?

There is still some grass on the plot I plan to use, and with winter
coming
soon, I doubt I'll have time to cover it and kill it with black plastic.
If
I just till the grass under, and then cover it and let it sit all
winter,
I
should be fine, right?

Oh, this might be a dumb question, but... If putting black plastic
over
grass for a couple weeks kills the grass, why doesn't the grass die when
covered by snow all winter?

Thanks for the advice. I'll experiment with a few methods and see what
works best. I liked the history lesson, but it's just me, so labour ain't
so "plentiful". I'm staying away from the treble dig. But, I will
avoid the tiller this time around.


"David Hill" wrote in message
...
Double digging,
A good idea if you have the time and energy.
The idea is to dig 2 "Spits" in depth a "Spit" is the depth of the blade
of
your spade, don't worry about it being less than 1 foot.
Yes you take out a trench and put the soil aside, but to make life easier,
if your plot is 20 foot wide then treat it as 2 10 foot plots so put the
soil next to where you take it from. dig up to the end of the plot then
back
down the other side. No heavy trucking of soil from one end to the other.
The idea of double digging is to break and pan that may have formed, to
improve the texture of the soil and to give the plant roots a greater
depth
of usable soil.
As you dig, skim off any weeds from the top layer with about 2 Inches of
soil, and work this together with any form of humus, Peat, compost,
manure,
other annual weeds etc and dig these into the lower spit,
then the top spit is dug to cover the lower dug spit, and so on till you
finish, then just replace the soil that came from the initial trench into
the trench you finish with.
If you are a real glutton for punishment you could even treble dig.
Double digging and treble digging were quite common during Victorian times
when labour was plentiful as was manure. In those days they also used a
system of making "Hot beds by taking out a trench about 4ft wide and 12 to
18 inches deep then building a bed 2ft of so high of fresh stable manure,
and covering it with the soil removed from the trench, this manure would
heat to over 160 F then as it started cooling Glass frames were placed
over
the bed and veg plants were planted, the heat from the manure giving the
plants bottom heat and frost protection, so that you could grow things
like
lettuce, cucumbers, melons and a wide range of crops out of season.
This form of gardening could use up to 200 tons of manure a year.
Now back to topic. Tilling (Rotavating) is useful for rapid cultivation
but
has the drawback of chopping up any perennial weed roots and thus
spreading
them , and the blades will cause the soil at the base to form a "Pan"
where
the blades rub along the bottom, especially if your ground is clay and is
wet, or even just damp when you work it, so digging is advisable every so
often.
On farms where the ground is "Rotavated" the use things like sub soilers
to
break this pan and to help drainage.


--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

"........Whether I till or not, I'll be sure to have black plastic on all
winter. ....."

Why?

The plastic will stop the rain going into the part covered .....but it has
to go somewhere so all round the sheeting you are going to double or treble
the amount of water.
If you cover a few weeks before you want to dig, or better, cover AFTER
digging to warm the ground before planting would be a lot better.
It doesn't matter if you do have weed growth of a few inches if you are
going to dig it in, in fact it will be of more value than a little dead
growth, and covering wont kill off perennial weeds in less than a year.
Remember if you keep it covered then it wont dry out if the water has got
under the sheet half as fast as uncovered ground.


--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

Joe98 wrote:

"Jim W" wrote in message
news:1g2y29y.fsc0p3te3ikgN%00senetnospamtodayta@ma cunlimited.net...
Joe98 wrote:

But the rotted manure IS the compost, right? And is the two thirds
compost
+ one third (peat moss) humus about right in your opinion?

Personally I wouldn't use peat moss, over here certainly it is a cause
for environmental concern.

Really? How so?

Peat bogs (from which much bagged garden peat is taken) are often SSSI's
(Sites of special scientific interest) as they contain rare species of
flora and fauna. They take a VERY long time to replace and cutting peat
destroys the living top layer.

Its also pricy! Compost on its own should do
just fine. Yes rotted manure is a source of 'compost' but its not quite
the same as 'compost' if you see what I mean!

Well broken down store bought manure is probably the best I can do at this
time.



Fill first trench with soil from 2nd and continue this method across
the
area to be dug.
When you reach end of the area you will have your soil from your
initial trench to fill in.


Lift the turf and stack upside down, covered under plastic. Next year
you will have a ready made loam pile for potting etc.

Hmm... What you suggest sounds like a good tip for making good loam,
but
is that necessary? As I said, I have grass on the area designated for
the
garden but it's spotty and useless as sod. In the process of the Double
Dig, I was planning to just work the grass into the mix. After I Double
Dig, I was planning to cover with plastic and leave it for all of
winter.
Is there anything wrong with doing it this way? It would save some
work,
which is important with old man winter coming around the corner.

Poss but the grass may regrow.. If you turn it over as sods though its
almost the same as stacking!-)

Okay, I'll do the best I can with it. Much of it is already overturned and
burried.



Depending on how cold you're winters get, you might consider a cover
crop instead. Grazing rye or Field beans ( an agricultural cultivar of
broad bean) are ideal and very hardy.

Similar thing as covering with placcy but looks nicer!-)

Agreed, but I'm sticking with plastic for now. Cheaper and easier to work
with. Maybe once I get better at gardening, I'll make the switch.




Snow lets through enough air and light and is naturally cold so
minimises growth. Black plastic only cuts out light and air.

Ah, I figured it was something like that. Thanks.


//
Jim

Thanks for your time and your advice Jim.

Oh, is there any kind of a generic calculation one can use for figuring
how
much hummus and compost I'll need? I really don't know how much to get.
BTW, my book says to expect the soil to be built up about 3 inches, but
it
seems like adding all that hummus and compost will raise it much more
than
than. What do you think?

Dunno depends on how bad your soil is.. If you're doing a prime prep
and want to do it properly I'd reckon half to 1 barrow per m2. You'll be
surprised how quickly the soil resettles once the worms and soil
organisms start to further break down compost.. It may be raised at
first, but will soon go down. I know a guy who double digs manure into
his plot 'every year'!! Not required IMO, but he does grow good veg!-)


That's a good guideline, and no, I don't plan to double dig every year.

Mind you he also uses chem fertilisers.

Yeah, that just doesn't make much sense to me. A big reason for gardening
is to get things organically. Especially here in the states where our
argricultural laws allow for far too many inorganic substances in the food.
We're still ingesting stuff you folks outlawed years ago.

I dunno you'd be surprised how many loopholes there are in the laws even
here.
//
Jim

"David Hill" wrote in message
...
"........Whether I till or not, I'll be sure to have black plastic on all
winter. ....."

Why?

The plastic will stop the rain going into the part covered .....but it has
to go somewhere so all round the sheeting you are going to double or
treble
the amount of water.
If you cover a few weeks before you want to dig, or better, cover AFTER
digging to warm the ground before planting would be a lot better.

It's getting cold fast, so no time to put plastic on the bed first before
digging. I don't plan to plant until spring at the earliest, but I was
hoping to kill the weeds and grass over the winter.

It doesn't matter if you do have weed growth of a few inches if you are
going to dig it in, in fact it will be of more value than a little dead
growth, and covering wont kill off perennial weeds in less than a year.

It's my understanding that with Double Digging, the ground should rest at
least a month, that's why I'm doing it over winter instead of wasting time
next growing season. I'm sure you're right about the perenenial weeds, but
at least I'll get most of it, including the grass.

Remember if you keep it covered then it wont dry out if the water has got
under the sheet half as fast as uncovered ground.

I hadn't thought of that. Maybe I'll double dig, aply the plastic and just
leave it be for a few weeks. I my area we don't usually have heavy now on
the ground all winter, especially at the start of the season. I'll try to
remove the plastic once the grass is sure to be dead



--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

Joe, i use several layers of news paper.. watering it down with a bit
of soap in the sprayer gizmo as a surfactant and leaving it soak for a
while, then add some more and wet it down till have 7 or 8 layers then
put the peet moss and composted cotton hulls (pm 60% to ch 40%) on
top of that and let it set till spring, keeping it moist. by then the
paper will probably have decayed and then holes can be dug to plant
the plants or seeds. that's how i did my north garden in a new
environment last fall and it is doing quite well. i keep ammending it,
however, and mulch it well. i use shredded leaves to mulch with as
well as shredded spruce. i am physically unable to dig a lot so this
works for me and the garden. the paper seems to do even better than
the plastic for me as it adds organic to the soil.
lee h


"Joe98" wrote in message ...
Thanks David. I'll have to think on that. The way things are going, I
might not have an opportunity to do much digging before the ground get's
hard and miserable to work. Whether I till or not, I'll be sure to have
black plastic on all winter.

"David J Bockman" wrote in message
...
Hi Joe,

There is a school of thought (and a very viable one) that suggests doing
away with double digging *or* tilling and simply amending, amending,
amending. The 'don't till' school says that tilling destroys or seriously
harms existing beneficial bacteria and in general, the tilth and aeration
of
the soil. Also, tilling will disturb the tens of thousands of weed seeds
laying dormant and waiting to be brought closer to the surface to
germinate.

I have to admit, I was skeptical, but after laying down an enormous amout
of
organic material along two sides of my property (approximately 80 cubic
yards), I'm a firm believer. About a year later the organic material had
filtered down at least 10 inches, with abundant earthworms moving between
the organic and hardpan clay layers as well. I used a combination of wood
chips, shredded leaves, bark, whatever it was that the city in which I
live
dumped in my driveway.

If the project were mine, I'd lay down clear or black plastic sheeting for
a
few weeks/months, which would cook not only any existing weeds but also
their seeds... then amend the heck out of it and perhaps lay downa green
cover such as winter rye, mustard, clover, etc. In the spring you can turn
under all that great green plant material and plant in your garden,
amending
regularly with good stuff such as pine needles, manure, inert straw, grass
clippings, shredded leaves, etc.

Just my $0.02,

Dave

Lee wrote:

Joe, i use several layers of news paper.. watering it down with a bit
of soap in the sprayer gizmo as a surfactant and leaving it soak for a
while, then add some more and wet it down till have 7 or 8 layers then
put the peet moss and composted cotton hulls (pm 60% to ch 40%) on
top of that and let it set till spring, keeping it moist. by then the
paper will probably have decayed and then holes can be dug to plant
the plants or seeds. that's how i did my north garden in a new
environment last fall and it is doing quite well. i keep ammending it,
however, and mulch it well. i use shredded leaves to mulch with as
well as shredded spruce. i am physically unable to dig a lot so this
works for me and the garden. the paper seems to do even better than
the plastic for me as it adds organic to the soil.

Sheet mulching...

Another ( very effective) cultivation technique altogether.. If you
combined the two I should think you would get most spctacular results.

//
Jim