Last year I started my garden. I removed the sod from two 15'x4'
areas. I dug down about 8" (as far as i could get down with a decent
spade) and tried to loosen up the soil. Its very grey and clayish so
i essentially carved out a spadefull and then chopped at it with the
spade to cut it into smaller chunks. It rained soon after and the
entire thing turned into a very sticky mush. I then had a cubic yard
of dirt delivered which i spread out of the two plots. Any of the
grey mud which was visible to the surface and dried out turned into
completely dry, hard, grey chunks that were essentially rocks. That
cubic yard only provided a couple inches of nice soil on top of the
clay stuff. Things still grew suprisingly well. As long as the grey
stuff stays covered it doesn't dry out and carrots seemed to have no
trouble growing into it. I'm sure they would do better with looser
soil but i can't complain.

I'm wondering what to do this year. My ideal option would be to
completely remove that top 8" of grey and fill everything up with many
more cubic yards of topsoil. However this year i no longer have
direct access for the soil guys to drive up and dump the bag right by
my garden. i'd have to treck it from the front by wheelbarrow, my
garden is over 200 feet from the driveway, and i'd have to go around a
neighbour since i'm actually in a townhouse. Not going to happen.

I do plan on bringing in a few smaller bags of dirt and compost by
hand, My main question is if i should attempt to mix them in with the
grey stuff or just building good stuff up on top? After settling, the
soil level was pretty much even with the surrounding grass so i can
still pile a lot more on top before it becomes a problem. A small
attempt at mixing last year didn't work well at all. Either the grey
stuff just stayed together in relativly dry chunks or it was complete
wet mush and the topsoil just floated on it. In the end it resulted
in many grey chunks/globs drying out on top.

Any suggestions/oppinions appreciated.

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 21:11:47 +0000, kevins_news2 wrote:

Last year I started my garden. I removed the sod from two 15'x4'
areas. I dug down about 8" (as far as i could get down with a decent
spade) and tried to loosen up the soil. Its very grey and clayish so
i essentially carved out a spadefull and then chopped at it with the
spade to cut it into smaller chunks. It rained soon after and the
entire thing turned into a very sticky mush. I then had a cubic yard
of dirt delivered which i spread out of the two plots. Any of the
grey mud which was visible to the surface and dried out turned into
completely dry, hard, grey chunks that were essentially rocks. That
cubic yard only provided a couple inches of nice soil on top of the
clay stuff. Things still grew suprisingly well. As long as the grey
stuff stays covered it doesn't dry out and carrots seemed to have no
trouble growing into it. I'm sure they would do better with looser
soil but i can't complain.

I'm wondering what to do this year. My ideal option would be to
completely remove that top 8" of grey and fill everything up with many
more cubic yards of topsoil. However this year i no longer have
direct access for the soil guys to drive up and dump the bag right by
my garden. i'd have to treck it from the front by wheelbarrow, my
garden is over 200 feet from the driveway, and i'd have to go around a
neighbour since i'm actually in a townhouse. Not going to happen.

I do plan on bringing in a few smaller bags of dirt and compost by
hand, My main question is if i should attempt to mix them in with the
grey stuff or just building good stuff up on top? After settling, the
soil level was pretty much even with the surrounding grass so i can
still pile a lot more on top before it becomes a problem. A small
attempt at mixing last year didn't work well at all. Either the grey
stuff just stayed together in relativly dry chunks or it was complete
wet mush and the topsoil just floated on it. In the end it resulted
in many grey chunks/globs drying out on top.

Any suggestions/oppinions appreciated.


#1 get a soil test done. A good lab will tell you more about your soil
than you might care to know. Soil tests are cheap and save you time in
the long run.

#2 add organic material: mulch, compost, etc. Topsoil is only a quick
remedy.

do some searches on this site:
www.dirtdoctor.com
good luck,


I do plan on bringing in a few smaller bags of dirt and compost by
hand, My main question is if i should attempt to mix them in with the
grey stuff or just building good stuff up on top? After settling, the
soil level was pretty much even with the surrounding grass so i can
still pile a lot more on top before it becomes a problem. A small
attempt at mixing last year didn't work well at all. Either the grey
stuff just stayed together in relativly dry chunks or it was complete
wet mush and the topsoil just floated on it. In the end it resulted
in many grey chunks/globs drying out on top.

Any suggestions/oppinions appreciated.

do some searches on this site:
www.dirtdoctor.com
good luck,


I do plan on bringing in a few smaller bags of dirt and compost by
hand, My main question is if i should attempt to mix them in with the
grey stuff or just building good stuff up on top? After settling, the
soil level was pretty much even with the surrounding grass so i can
still pile a lot more on top before it becomes a problem. A small
attempt at mixing last year didn't work well at all. Either the grey
stuff just stayed together in relativly dry chunks or it was complete
wet mush and the topsoil just floated on it. In the end it resulted
in many grey chunks/globs drying out on top.

Any suggestions/oppinions appreciated.

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 21:11:47 GMT, kevins_news2
wrote:

Last year I started my garden. I removed the sod from two 15'x4'
areas. I dug down about 8" (as far as i could get down with a decent
spade) and tried to loosen up the soil. Its very grey and clayish so
i essentially carved out a spadefull and then chopped at it with the
spade to cut it into smaller chunks. It rained soon after and the
entire thing turned into a very sticky mush.

Clay. Often very nutritious, but lacking organic matter. Compost is
the cure. Just keep digging in compost. And more compost. Timing is
tricky. When the ground's completely dry, it's like cement; when it's
wet, walking on it will further compress the soil (for one entire
season, my clay-based garden plot had a 6" deep footprint at one edge
where I'd stepped when it was mucky). Start your own compost pile
in one corner. Many cities that collect leaves and grass clippings
have finished compost for sale or for free. So-called 'topsoil' is
expensive, particularly in bags, and of variable quality. And you
probably need compost more than dirt. If your soil is alkaline, plain
ol' peat moss will fluff things up and add a little acid.

kevins_news2 wrote in message . ..

I'm wondering what to do this year. My ideal option would be to
completely remove that top 8" of grey and fill everything up with many
more cubic yards of topsoil. However this year i no longer have
direct access for the soil guys to drive up and dump the bag right by
my garden. i'd have to treck it from the front by wheelbarrow, my
garden is over 200 feet from the driveway, and i'd have to go around a
neighbour since i'm actually in a townhouse. Not going to happen.


given that you have already been told about organic matter and soil
tests, here is some experience. I find leaves to be the best, per
pound, at attracting earthworms, and zillions of worms is what you
need. You may want to have a leaf mulch on your soil at all times, if
possible applying it twice a year (and you plant only seedlings
through the mulch, no direct broadcasting). Earthworms will mostly
live in the first inch or so, but they have to move up and down at
least twice a year to follow the frostline, so they should provide you
with tilling down to two feet once abundant.

Other things which in my opinion help break the soil include potatoes
(mache and cardoon are also quite aggressive) and taprooted greens
(chicory and dandelion). The latter go down one foot (four feet if you
count hair roots), each leftover root making a channel of compost for
water to drain and earthworms to eat, and their motto is clay-schmay.
Other roots you can also leave in at the end of the growing season
(say, tomatoes or squash or cabbage) but you run the risk of spreading
diseases (I take out those whole plants, though I leave the roots of
everything else except in the 10% or so of garden where I direct
seed). Carrots or beets are not as good because the root is removed at
the end. If you are willing to lose some growing time, there are lots
of green manures that will break the soil aggressively (favas will
give you a crop as well, and are excellent with clay). In short, some
veggies are more adapted to heavier soils and will help you break it
if planted thickly enough. Other than that, you will have to be
patient. those clumps will not go away in one year.

kevins_news2 wrote in message . ..

I'm wondering what to do this year. My ideal option would be to
completely remove that top 8" of grey and fill everything up with many
more cubic yards of topsoil. However this year i no longer have
direct access for the soil guys to drive up and dump the bag right by
my garden. i'd have to treck it from the front by wheelbarrow, my
garden is over 200 feet from the driveway, and i'd have to go around a
neighbour since i'm actually in a townhouse. Not going to happen.


given that you have already been told about organic matter and soil
tests, here is some experience. I find leaves to be the best, per
pound, at attracting earthworms, and zillions of worms is what you
need. You may want to have a leaf mulch on your soil at all times, if
possible applying it twice a year (and you plant only seedlings
through the mulch, no direct broadcasting). Earthworms will mostly
live in the first inch or so, but they have to move up and down at
least twice a year to follow the frostline, so they should provide you
with tilling down to two feet once abundant.

Other things which in my opinion help break the soil include potatoes
(mache and cardoon are also quite aggressive) and taprooted greens
(chicory and dandelion). The latter go down one foot (four feet if you
count hair roots), each leftover root making a channel of compost for
water to drain and earthworms to eat, and their motto is clay-schmay.
Other roots you can also leave in at the end of the growing season
(say, tomatoes or squash or cabbage) but you run the risk of spreading
diseases (I take out those whole plants, though I leave the roots of
everything else except in the 10% or so of garden where I direct
seed). Carrots or beets are not as good because the root is removed at
the end. If you are willing to lose some growing time, there are lots
of green manures that will break the soil aggressively (favas will
give you a crop as well, and are excellent with clay). In short, some
veggies are more adapted to heavier soils and will help you break it
if planted thickly enough. Other than that, you will have to be
patient. those clumps will not go away in one year.

On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 13:08:58 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 21:11:47 GMT, kevins_news2
wrote:

Last year I started my garden. I removed the sod from two 15'x4'
areas. I dug down about 8" (as far as i could get down with a decent
spade) and tried to loosen up the soil. Its very grey and clayish so
i essentially carved out a spadefull and then chopped at it with the
spade to cut it into smaller chunks. It rained soon after and the
entire thing turned into a very sticky mush.

Clay. Often very nutritious, but lacking organic matter. Compost is
the cure. Just keep digging in compost. And more compost. Timing is
tricky. When the ground's completely dry, it's like cement; when it's
wet, walking on it will further compress the soil (for one entire
season, my clay-based garden plot had a 6" deep footprint at one edge
where I'd stepped when it was mucky). Start your own compost pile
in one corner. Many cities that collect leaves and grass clippings
have finished compost for sale or for free. So-called 'topsoil' is
expensive, particularly in bags, and of variable quality. And you
probably need compost more than dirt. If your soil is alkaline, plain
ol' peat moss will fluff things up and add a little acid.

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

I did start a compost bin last spring. Although when you're relying
on kitchen scraps to provide the bulk of your green material it takes
a *really* long time to fill. The bin is probably 2.5' wide at the
bottom and by halloween i had probably only accumulated a couple of
inches of kitchen waste, grass clippings and misc brown filler. But
at the end of the season i was able to get in some good layers due to
an overabundance of halloween pumpkins, leaves, and all the leftover
plants i pulled out of the garden. Hopefully this year it will do
some composting.

Dig in compost. check. will do.

Kevin

On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 13:08:58 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 21:11:47 GMT, kevins_news2
wrote:

Last year I started my garden. I removed the sod from two 15'x4'
areas. I dug down about 8" (as far as i could get down with a decent
spade) and tried to loosen up the soil. Its very grey and clayish so
i essentially carved out a spadefull and then chopped at it with the
spade to cut it into smaller chunks. It rained soon after and the
entire thing turned into a very sticky mush.

Clay. Often very nutritious, but lacking organic matter. Compost is
the cure. Just keep digging in compost. And more compost. Timing is
tricky. When the ground's completely dry, it's like cement; when it's
wet, walking on it will further compress the soil (for one entire
season, my clay-based garden plot had a 6" deep footprint at one edge
where I'd stepped when it was mucky). Start your own compost pile
in one corner. Many cities that collect leaves and grass clippings
have finished compost for sale or for free. So-called 'topsoil' is
expensive, particularly in bags, and of variable quality. And you
probably need compost more than dirt. If your soil is alkaline, plain
ol' peat moss will fluff things up and add a little acid.

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

I did start a compost bin last spring. Although when you're relying
on kitchen scraps to provide the bulk of your green material it takes
a *really* long time to fill. The bin is probably 2.5' wide at the
bottom and by halloween i had probably only accumulated a couple of
inches of kitchen waste, grass clippings and misc brown filler. But
at the end of the season i was able to get in some good layers due to
an overabundance of halloween pumpkins, leaves, and all the leftover
plants i pulled out of the garden. Hopefully this year it will do
some composting.

Dig in compost. check. will do.

Kevin

On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 13:08:58 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 21:11:47 GMT, kevins_news2
wrote:

Last year I started my garden. I removed the sod from two 15'x4'
areas. I dug down about 8" (as far as i could get down with a decent
spade) and tried to loosen up the soil. Its very grey and clayish so
i essentially carved out a spadefull and then chopped at it with the
spade to cut it into smaller chunks. It rained soon after and the
entire thing turned into a very sticky mush.

Clay. Often very nutritious, but lacking organic matter. Compost is
the cure. Just keep digging in compost. And more compost. Timing is
tricky. When the ground's completely dry, it's like cement; when it's
wet, walking on it will further compress the soil (for one entire
season, my clay-based garden plot had a 6" deep footprint at one edge
where I'd stepped when it was mucky). Start your own compost pile
in one corner. Many cities that collect leaves and grass clippings
have finished compost for sale or for free. So-called 'topsoil' is
expensive, particularly in bags, and of variable quality. And you
probably need compost more than dirt. If your soil is alkaline, plain
ol' peat moss will fluff things up and add a little acid.

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

I did start a compost bin last spring. Although when you're relying
on kitchen scraps to provide the bulk of your green material it takes
a *really* long time to fill. The bin is probably 2.5' wide at the
bottom and by halloween i had probably only accumulated a couple of
inches of kitchen waste, grass clippings and misc brown filler. But
at the end of the season i was able to get in some good layers due to
an overabundance of halloween pumpkins, leaves, and all the leftover
plants i pulled out of the garden. Hopefully this year it will do
some composting.

Dig in compost. check. will do.

Kevin

On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 13:08:58 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 21:11:47 GMT, kevins_news2
wrote:

Last year I started my garden. I removed the sod from two 15'x4'
areas. I dug down about 8" (as far as i could get down with a decent
spade) and tried to loosen up the soil. Its very grey and clayish so
i essentially carved out a spadefull and then chopped at it with the
spade to cut it into smaller chunks. It rained soon after and the
entire thing turned into a very sticky mush.

Clay. Often very nutritious, but lacking organic matter. Compost is
the cure. Just keep digging in compost. And more compost. Timing is
tricky. When the ground's completely dry, it's like cement; when it's
wet, walking on it will further compress the soil (for one entire
season, my clay-based garden plot had a 6" deep footprint at one edge
where I'd stepped when it was mucky). Start your own compost pile
in one corner. Many cities that collect leaves and grass clippings
have finished compost for sale or for free. So-called 'topsoil' is
expensive, particularly in bags, and of variable quality. And you
probably need compost more than dirt. If your soil is alkaline, plain
ol' peat moss will fluff things up and add a little acid.

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

I did start a compost bin last spring. Although when you're relying
on kitchen scraps to provide the bulk of your green material it takes
a *really* long time to fill. The bin is probably 2.5' wide at the
bottom and by halloween i had probably only accumulated a couple of
inches of kitchen waste, grass clippings and misc brown filler. But
at the end of the season i was able to get in some good layers due to
an overabundance of halloween pumpkins, leaves, and all the leftover
plants i pulled out of the garden. Hopefully this year it will do
some composting.

Dig in compost. check. will do.

Kevin

On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 13:08:58 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 21:11:47 GMT, kevins_news2
wrote:

Last year I started my garden. I removed the sod from two 15'x4'
areas. I dug down about 8" (as far as i could get down with a decent
spade) and tried to loosen up the soil. Its very grey and clayish so
i essentially carved out a spadefull and then chopped at it with the
spade to cut it into smaller chunks. It rained soon after and the
entire thing turned into a very sticky mush.

Clay. Often very nutritious, but lacking organic matter. Compost is
the cure. Just keep digging in compost. And more compost. Timing is
tricky. When the ground's completely dry, it's like cement; when it's
wet, walking on it will further compress the soil (for one entire
season, my clay-based garden plot had a 6" deep footprint at one edge
where I'd stepped when it was mucky). Start your own compost pile
in one corner. Many cities that collect leaves and grass clippings
have finished compost for sale or for free. So-called 'topsoil' is
expensive, particularly in bags, and of variable quality. And you
probably need compost more than dirt. If your soil is alkaline, plain
ol' peat moss will fluff things up and add a little acid.

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

I did start a compost bin last spring. Although when you're relying
on kitchen scraps to provide the bulk of your green material it takes
a *really* long time to fill. The bin is probably 2.5' wide at the
bottom and by halloween i had probably only accumulated a couple of
inches of kitchen waste, grass clippings and misc brown filler. But
at the end of the season i was able to get in some good layers due to
an overabundance of halloween pumpkins, leaves, and all the leftover
plants i pulled out of the garden. Hopefully this year it will do
some composting.

Dig in compost. check. will do.

Kevin

On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 13:08:58 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 21:11:47 GMT, kevins_news2
wrote:

Last year I started my garden. I removed the sod from two 15'x4'
areas. I dug down about 8" (as far as i could get down with a decent
spade) and tried to loosen up the soil. Its very grey and clayish so
i essentially carved out a spadefull and then chopped at it with the
spade to cut it into smaller chunks. It rained soon after and the
entire thing turned into a very sticky mush.

Clay. Often very nutritious, but lacking organic matter. Compost is
the cure. Just keep digging in compost. And more compost. Timing is
tricky. When the ground's completely dry, it's like cement; when it's
wet, walking on it will further compress the soil (for one entire
season, my clay-based garden plot had a 6" deep footprint at one edge
where I'd stepped when it was mucky). Start your own compost pile
in one corner. Many cities that collect leaves and grass clippings
have finished compost for sale or for free. So-called 'topsoil' is
expensive, particularly in bags, and of variable quality. And you
probably need compost more than dirt. If your soil is alkaline, plain
ol' peat moss will fluff things up and add a little acid.

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

I did start a compost bin last spring. Although when you're relying
on kitchen scraps to provide the bulk of your green material it takes
a *really* long time to fill. The bin is probably 2.5' wide at the
bottom and by halloween i had probably only accumulated a couple of
inches of kitchen waste, grass clippings and misc brown filler. But
at the end of the season i was able to get in some good layers due to
an overabundance of halloween pumpkins, leaves, and all the leftover
plants i pulled out of the garden. Hopefully this year it will do
some composting.

Dig in compost. check. will do.

Kevin

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 19:39:53 GMT, kevins_news2
wrote:

On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 13:08:58 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 21:11:47 GMT, kevins_news2
wrote:

Last year I started my garden. I removed the sod from two 15'x4'
areas. I dug down about 8" (as far as i could get down with a decent
spade) and tried to loosen up the soil. Its very grey and clayish so
i essentially carved out a spadefull and then chopped at it with the
spade to cut it into smaller chunks. It rained soon after and the
entire thing turned into a very sticky mush.

Clay. Often very nutritious, but lacking organic matter. Compost is
the cure. Just keep digging in compost. And more compost. Timing is
tricky. When the ground's completely dry, it's like cement; when it's
wet, walking on it will further compress the soil (for one entire
season, my clay-based garden plot had a 6" deep footprint at one edge
where I'd stepped when it was mucky). Start your own compost pile
in one corner. Many cities that collect leaves and grass clippings
have finished compost for sale or for free. So-called 'topsoil' is
expensive, particularly in bags, and of variable quality. And you
probably need compost more than dirt. If your soil is alkaline, plain
ol' peat moss will fluff things up and add a little acid.

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

I did start a compost bin last spring. Although when you're relying
on kitchen scraps to provide the bulk of your green material it takes
a *really* long time to fill. The bin is probably 2.5' wide at the
bottom and by halloween i had probably only accumulated a couple of
inches of kitchen waste, grass clippings and misc brown filler. But
at the end of the season i was able to get in some good layers due to
an overabundance of halloween pumpkins, leaves, and all the leftover
plants i pulled out of the garden. Hopefully this year it will do
some composting.

Dig in compost. check. will do.

Kevin


Can't help too much with garden waste stuff .. green stuff.. or moist.
But if you find yourself short on the "brown" or dry stuff, you *can*
use newsprint and papers that's not printed with colored inks that
could have cadmium or lead or whatever other toxic properties my brain
pan can't retrieve from my head at them moment. Junk mail can be
recycled ;-)

My father got to where he didn't put any trash out for collection
because he kept a "garbage trench" in the garden where he buried
anything that would rot. Of course he cheated in that he heated the
garage/shop area with a wood stove he made from a 55 gallon drum, and
in that he would burn things he really shouldn't have.. like styrofoam
... he would have recycled it but no local recycler takes it, but he
took cans and bottles etc that they would take up to the recycler
every now and then.

He didn't "compost" the garbage because he had plenty of other stuff
to do in the summer, and in the cooler months.. just would end up
stinking, so he just dug a trench and tossed in stuff and back filled
just to cover until he filled the trench, then dug another. I think
my father, over his lifetime, dug enough dirt to dig up the city or
maybe more...he died at 94 and was digging near to the end..and he
didn't wait to die, it was taking too long! stubborn old man that he
was!

Janice