I did think I was agreeing with Cereus-validus. Absit invidia. Personally I
did garden, for fifteen years, in a desert climate in the Canary Islands
where rain was something that fell elsewhere. I still have the garden and
still attempt to grow the very marginals as well as those more suited.
Janet summed up the British flora well and eloquently. Not only have we
retained all of our native species but we have added from the best that the
world has to offer~ some being very marginal. I would imagine the US
attempts similarly.
We even sustain the flora of other climates so they can restock if
necessary~ Kew is the keeper of world-wide species ~endangered or otherwise.
Their collection is without limit.
Visiting Italy I found some fabulous gardens and was somewhat
disappointed to find they were of British [usually Scottish] origin.
My bluebells cover an acre of woodland and have been with us, as a
family, for hundreds of years. The only variation has been an odd white or
rose specimen.
Our only loss of species has been the Elm and even those are possibly
recovering. We had two specimens that showed some resistance. S.O.D has now
been identified locally and we will just have to wait and see.
Visit the UK if you ever have the opportunity and enjoy our nation wide
hobby.
Best Wishes.
"Cereus-validus" wrote in message
. com...
Dude, you live in England and you have seem to have no idea what we are
talking about. You live in a cloudy rainy climate. You have probably never
been to the desert Southwest of the USA nor have ever experienced truly
dry
conditions first hand and you would surely quickly sunburn and shrivel
away
under the intense summer head and dryness if you did.

Almost everything that presently grows in England is an "exotic" because
the
natives had completely decimated the forests and wiped out the original
native flora ages ago. I have seen so-called wild flower books of England
and almost every plant in it was actually an introduced weed from
elsewhere
in Europe, Asia or even North America. There is now even an aquatic
Crassula
from New Zealand that has become a widespread pest in England.


"Brian" wrote in message
...
I feel that it is presence, rather than lack, of imagination that seems
to
prompt all gardeners to attempt to grow the borderline
possibles.Whatever
nationality. The flora of a differing climate always seem the most
desirable. Personally I have tried and failed with many so-called
exotics.
Even a little success bring much pleasure~~ Palms and Eucalypts have
flourished locally for the last twenty years in SW England and await the
first real winter!!.
However I have never seen a deliberate mass of Ivy ~~ English or
otherwise. I can think of little less desirable.
Best Wishes.
"Cereus-validus" wrote in message
. com...
Its symptomatic of the lack of imagination of the average American
gardener.

There are a huge number of dry land plants, including trees, shrubs,
vines,
bulbs and succulents, that are vastly more interesting and more
colorful
than the limited selection of plants that can grow in an English
garden.

Many Dutch bulbs, especially Tulips, do better under the arid
Mediterranean
conditions from which they originate than the colder conditions many
gardeners force them to grow.

The wide variety of succulents from all over the world that can be
grown
under arid Mediterranean conditions almost boggles the mind.


"J. Del Col" wrote in message
m...
"Cereus-validus" wrote in message
. com...
Never understood why people insist on trying to create an English
garden
in
the desert southwest when there are thousands of other more
suitable
and
far
more interesting Mediterranean climate plants that would do much
better
under their conditions.

You will save yourself and your community much precious water by
planting
things that will actually thrive in your climate.


Indeed. Even Gertrude Jekyll, the panjandrum of English gardening,
expressed puzzlement as to why Americans wanted to replicate
English
gardens in climates unsuited to them. She encouraged them to
experiment with native plants and others fit for local conditions.


J. Del Col

In article , "Brian"
wrote:

Not only have we
retained all of our native species but we have added from the best that the
world has to offer~ some being very marginal.
Our only loss of species has been the Elm and even those are possibly
recovering.

Nonsense. Between 1987 & 1999, 30 species of vascular plants, lichens,
mosses, & stoneworts were documented as having gone extinct in Great
Britain, & that list was restricted only to plants not found elsewhere in
Europe; additional plants now extinct in the UK but found elsewhere were
excluded from the list. Six additional species during this time went
exinct in the wild, but do survive in cultivation, which probably reflects
the ratio of critically endangered plants that might be saved in the
futu of every 36 plants likely to become extinct in the forseeable
future, expect perhaps six of those to be saved by heroic efforts. The
list of rare, endangered, & critically endangered species is extremely
lengthy, with funding to save the majority frankly not forthcoming. From
just the list of Critically Endangered, expect them plant by plant to move
to the extinction list, with those now merely rare moving up the list to
critically endangered.

The sources for this information are Wigginton's BRITISH RED BOOK OF
VASCULAR PLANTS 1999, and the Nature Conservancy Advisr to the UK
Government, neither source being at all radical, and taking a conservative
& practical approach to realities. See http://jncc.gov.uk/ if you want to
get acquainted with the reality that is extravagantly different from your
fantastical assumptions.

Missing from these statistics are the vast number of plants that have
gone extinct in some counties but not YET in others -- the range of even
those plants not immediately extinct is shrinking dramatically year by
year.

Also missing from this list are plants hybridized with introduced species
-- which is the great majority of no-longer-native species. Bare in mind
even in Scottish Pine was down to less than 100 genetically unpolluted
examples of the actual subspecies before a cloning project began only
three years ago. No Scottish Pine under 250 years of age (their typical
lifespan) is genetically pure, & the attempt to save the actual Scottish
Pine from extinction rests on cloning the few remaining 300 to 550 year
old trees growing in a single obscure glen. Plenty of pines might still
have been growing & that might suit your needs fine, but they are NOT the
native subspecies. The present heroic efforts to save pure native
subspecies is NOT being undertaken for much else, so for the most part
even "non threatened" native flora is in reality melting away into
hybridization as a "best case" for the survival of the UK native flora.

It's no different anywhere in the world where people live, but this
delusion that Brits haven't lost any species when you're losing a couple
more ever year seems to be predicated on a silly notion that Brits are
don't behave as humans have behaved everywhere. You do, & that means a
critical & ongoing problem of exterminating native species of everything.
It's just what humans do, despite the valiant efforts of a very few
oddballs. Part of the process requires people to wear blinders, so that
your own role in the ongoing problem needn't result in justified guilt
over even being alive.

Some relevant quotes found round the web:

"Every county in Britain is estimated to lose 7 native plant species each
decade due to illegal collecting for unscrupulous garden stores; organized
gangs of wildflower poachers now moving into Scotland. Organised crime is
threatening to make dozens of Scotland's native wild flowers extinct,
conservationists and landowners have been warned by the the Scottish
Landowners Federation" [Niall Bennet of UK wildflower charity Plant Life].

"Clearance of the native woods of Scotland for logging and grazing over
the centuries has resulted in the loss of plant and animal habitat. Only
2% of the native forest ecosystem remains in Scotland. [Scottish Native
Woods Report, August 2000]

"Six surveys recorded the presence of almost all of Britain's native
plant, bird and butterfly populations in the past 40 years in a 10km grid.
One third of plant, bird and butterfly species have disappeared" [Jeremy
Thomas & the Natural Environment Research Council]

"Many species of plants and animals are fully or partially protected by
Government legislation Despite the legal protection given to species,
extinctions still occur." [Scottish Office of Environmental Statistics]

"Today, our countryside is mainly made up of grassland but very little is
natural grassland where wild flowers can flourish. Most fields contain
special grasses to feed cattle for humans. Almost all countryside habitats
have either been created or changed by man" [Britain's Wildlife, Young
Peoples Trust for the Environment]

Much more of course -- that was just the first page of hits with a couple
relevant keywords.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

"Brian" in
:

I feel that it is presence, rather than lack, of imagination that
seems to prompt all gardeners to attempt to grow the borderline
possibles.Whatever nationality. The flora of a differing climate
always seem the most desirable. Personally I have tried and failed
with many so-called exotics. Even a little success bring much
pleasure~~ Palms and Eucalypts have flourished locally for the last
twenty years in SW England and await the first real winter!!.
However I have never seen a deliberate mass of Ivy ~~ English or
otherwise. I can think of little less desirable.

it's a common tough gc, commercial and residential. algerian ivy is also.

Hedera helix {Araliaceae} #199200343 L:3301 Q:1
.... Hedera helix L. General information: Query NCU-3e; Common Name:
English Ivy;
Family: Araliaceae Juss. Country of Origin: Eur.,W. Asia, N. Africa;
Habitat ...
florawww.eeb.uconn.edu/acc_num/199200343.html

Best Wishes.
"Cereus-validus" wrote in message
. com...
Its symptomatic of the lack of imagination of the average American
gardener.

There are a huge number of dry land plants, including trees, shrubs,
vines,
bulbs and succulents, that are vastly more interesting and more
colorful than the limited selection of plants that can grow in an
English garden.

Many Dutch bulbs, especially Tulips, do better under the arid
Mediterranean
conditions from which they originate than the colder conditions many
gardeners force them to grow.

i think most hybrid tulips are from west asian elevation (turkey and
north) Most have trouble due to slightly less chill than they need in low
elevation california. i've seen some come up in spring. and a local
columnist once printed a short list of tulip cvs that regrew for him.

googling, i find that tulipa are widespread
china, england, ...
http://www.botanic.co.il/a/holiday/IMGMAP/file233.HTML


The wide variety of succulents from all over the world that can be
grown under arid Mediterranean conditions almost boggles the mind.

yes!

"J. Del Col" wrote in message
m...
"Cereus-validus" wrote in message
. com...
Never understood why people insist on trying to create an English
garden
in
the desert southwest when there are thousands of other more
suitable
and
far
more interesting Mediterranean climate plants that would do much
better
under their conditions.

You will save yourself and your community much precious water by
planting
things that will actually thrive in your climate.


Indeed. Even Gertrude Jekyll, the panjandrum of English gardening,
expressed puzzlement as to why Americans wanted to replicate
English gardens in climates unsuited to them. She encouraged them
to experiment with native plants and others fit for local
conditions.

yet the english like to try californian plants

J. Del Col

It was thoughtful of you to have answered in such detail.
Some of the publications you mention are known to me though few I would
grant any degree of validity.
Clapham Tutin and Warburg {overtaking Hooker} is the authoritative flora
of the British Isles and adds many newly discovered species with each
edition. The RHS and Kew being the ultimate authority. So-called extinct
species are always found to be gross exaggerations and many have even been
elevated to 'Locally Common' from 'rare'. More recently a Lichen generally
believed to be extinct has been found in abundance on Dartmoor.
The scaremongers are always reluctant to give specifics and are now left
to their own conclusions by botanists. They indulge in no responsibility.
My own work, related to ancient pollen, has yet to discover any plant that
could survive in our recent ~~ multiple millennium~ climate or any extinct
that could have survived other than with climate induced variations.
There has always been numerous species that have been exceptionally
uncommon or rare.
The UK remains a green and pleasant land with an exceptional flora.
Best Wishes
"paghat" wrote in message
news
In article , "Brian"
wrote:

Not only have we
retained all of our native species but we have added from the best that
the
world has to offer~ some being very marginal.
Our only loss of species has been the Elm and even those are possibly
recovering.

Nonsense. Between 1987 & 1999, 30 species of vascular plants, lichens,
mosses, & stoneworts were documented as having gone extinct in Great
Britain, & that list was restricted only to plants not found elsewhere in
Europe; additional plants now extinct in the UK but found elsewhere were
excluded from the list. Six additional species during this time went
exinct in the wild, but do survive in cultivation, which probably reflects
the ratio of critically endangered plants that might be saved in the
futu of every 36 plants likely to become extinct in the forseeable
future, expect perhaps six of those to be saved by heroic efforts. The
list of rare, endangered, & critically endangered species is extremely
lengthy, with funding to save the majority frankly not forthcoming. From
just the list of Critically Endangered, expect them plant by plant to move
to the extinction list, with those now merely rare moving up the list to
critically endangered.

The sources for this information are Wigginton's BRITISH RED BOOK OF
VASCULAR PLANTS 1999, and the Nature Conservancy Advisr to the UK
Government, neither source being at all radical, and taking a conservative
& practical approach to realities. See http://jncc.gov.uk/ if you want to
get acquainted with the reality that is extravagantly different from your
fantastical assumptions.

Missing from these statistics are the vast number of plants that have
gone extinct in some counties but not YET in others -- the range of even
those plants not immediately extinct is shrinking dramatically year by
year.

Also missing from this list are plants hybridized with introduced species
-- which is the great majority of no-longer-native species. Bare in mind
even in Scottish Pine was down to less than 100 genetically unpolluted
examples of the actual subspecies before a cloning project began only
three years ago. No Scottish Pine under 250 years of age (their typical
lifespan) is genetically pure, & the attempt to save the actual Scottish
Pine from extinction rests on cloning the few remaining 300 to 550 year
old trees growing in a single obscure glen. Plenty of pines might still
have been growing & that might suit your needs fine, but they are NOT the
native subspecies. The present heroic efforts to save pure native
subspecies is NOT being undertaken for much else, so for the most part
even "non threatened" native flora is in reality melting away into
hybridization as a "best case" for the survival of the UK native flora.

It's no different anywhere in the world where people live, but this
delusion that Brits haven't lost any species when you're losing a couple
more ever year seems to be predicated on a silly notion that Brits are
don't behave as humans have behaved everywhere. You do, & that means a
critical & ongoing problem of exterminating native species of everything.
It's just what humans do, despite the valiant efforts of a very few
oddballs. Part of the process requires people to wear blinders, so that
your own role in the ongoing problem needn't result in justified guilt
over even being alive.

Some relevant quotes found round the web:

"Every county in Britain is estimated to lose 7 native plant species each
decade due to illegal collecting for unscrupulous garden stores; organized
gangs of wildflower poachers now moving into Scotland. Organised crime is
threatening to make dozens of Scotland's native wild flowers extinct,
conservationists and landowners have been warned by the the Scottish
Landowners Federation" [Niall Bennet of UK wildflower charity Plant Life].

"Clearance of the native woods of Scotland for logging and grazing over
the centuries has resulted in the loss of plant and animal habitat. Only
2% of the native forest ecosystem remains in Scotland. [Scottish Native
Woods Report, August 2000]

"Six surveys recorded the presence of almost all of Britain's native
plant, bird and butterfly populations in the past 40 years in a 10km grid.
One third of plant, bird and butterfly species have disappeared" [Jeremy
Thomas & the Natural Environment Research Council]

"Many species of plants and animals are fully or partially protected by
Government legislation Despite the legal protection given to species,
extinctions still occur." [Scottish Office of Environmental Statistics]

"Today, our countryside is mainly made up of grassland but very little is
natural grassland where wild flowers can flourish. Most fields contain
special grasses to feed cattle for humans. Almost all countryside habitats
have either been created or changed by man" [Britain's Wildlife, Young
Peoples Trust for the Environment]

Much more of course -- that was just the first page of hits with a couple
relevant keywords.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/