Never understood why people insist on trying to create an English garden in
the desert southwest when there are thousands of other more suitable and far
more interesting Mediterranean climate plants that would do much better
under their conditions.

You will save yourself and your community much precious water by planting
things that will actually thrive in your climate.


"active805" wrote in message
om...
I live in a part of California that is Sunset Zone 15. I have a plot
of English Ivy ground cover that measures about 450 square feet. Most
of my plot gets too much sun in the summer, causing it to burn. I
want to screen the plot during mid-day, but how? Is there a fabric
sheeting I could lay on top of the plants? What a hassle that will
be. Any recommendations? Perhaps I could shade it with Italian
Cypress, but that would really alter the landscape.

Will extra watering protect English Ivy from the ravages of the
California sun? I am thinking of installing a drip system, but there
are so many types of drip emitters, and I don't know much about that.

Never understood why people insist on trying to create an English garden in
the desert southwest when there are thousands of other more suitable and far
more interesting Mediterranean climate plants that would do much better
under their conditions.

You will save yourself and your community much precious water by planting
things that will actually thrive in your climate.


"active805" wrote in message
om...
I live in a part of California that is Sunset Zone 15. I have a plot
of English Ivy ground cover that measures about 450 square feet. Most
of my plot gets too much sun in the summer, causing it to burn. I
want to screen the plot during mid-day, but how? Is there a fabric
sheeting I could lay on top of the plants? What a hassle that will
be. Any recommendations? Perhaps I could shade it with Italian
Cypress, but that would really alter the landscape.

Will extra watering protect English Ivy from the ravages of the
California sun? I am thinking of installing a drip system, but there
are so many types of drip emitters, and I don't know much about that.

In article ,
"Cereus-validus" wrote:

Never understood why people insist on trying to create an English garden in
the desert southwest when there are thousands of other more suitable and far
more interesting Mediterranean climate plants that would do much better
under their conditions.

You will save yourself and your community much precious water by planting
things that will actually thrive in your climate.

Given sufficient shade, English ivy is amazingly drought-hardy, & just
might be a proper choice for a desert garden. It might be difficult to
provide a whopping 450 square feet of shade however, & I would personally
want a variety of interesting plants rather than a tedioius expanse of
just ivy. But in this case I'm not sure that wasting water is the right
criticism against ivy. Not that I've ever gardened in a desert...where I'd
be more inclined to grow lachenalias & succulents & build a giant pergola
from which to hang orchid cacti & other epiphytes. I'd miss my moist shade
garden but a shade garden of epiphytes would sure make up for whatever I
could no longer have in a hot place.

-paghat the ratgirl

"active805" wrote in message
om...
I live in a part of California that is Sunset Zone 15. I have a plot
of English Ivy ground cover that measures about 450 square feet. Most
of my plot gets too much sun in the summer, causing it to burn. I
want to screen the plot during mid-day, but how? Is there a fabric
sheeting I could lay on top of the plants? What a hassle that will
be. Any recommendations? Perhaps I could shade it with Italian
Cypress, but that would really alter the landscape.

Will extra watering protect English Ivy from the ravages of the
California sun? I am thinking of installing a drip system, but there
are so many types of drip emitters, and I don't know much about that.

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

In article ,
"Cereus-validus" wrote:

Never understood why people insist on trying to create an English garden in
the desert southwest when there are thousands of other more suitable and far
more interesting Mediterranean climate plants that would do much better
under their conditions.

You will save yourself and your community much precious water by planting
things that will actually thrive in your climate.

Given sufficient shade, English ivy is amazingly drought-hardy, & just
might be a proper choice for a desert garden. It might be difficult to
provide a whopping 450 square feet of shade however, & I would personally
want a variety of interesting plants rather than a tedioius expanse of
just ivy. But in this case I'm not sure that wasting water is the right
criticism against ivy. Not that I've ever gardened in a desert...where I'd
be more inclined to grow lachenalias & succulents & build a giant pergola
from which to hang orchid cacti & other epiphytes. I'd miss my moist shade
garden but a shade garden of epiphytes would sure make up for whatever I
could no longer have in a hot place.

-paghat the ratgirl

"active805" wrote in message
om...
I live in a part of California that is Sunset Zone 15. I have a plot
of English Ivy ground cover that measures about 450 square feet. Most
of my plot gets too much sun in the summer, causing it to burn. I
want to screen the plot during mid-day, but how? Is there a fabric
sheeting I could lay on top of the plants? What a hassle that will
be. Any recommendations? Perhaps I could shade it with Italian
Cypress, but that would really alter the landscape.

Will extra watering protect English Ivy from the ravages of the
California sun? I am thinking of installing a drip system, but there
are so many types of drip emitters, and I don't know much about that.

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

"Cereus-validus" wrote in message . com...
Never understood why people insist on trying to create an English garden in
the desert southwest when there are thousands of other more suitable and far
more interesting Mediterranean climate plants that would do much better
under their conditions.

You will save yourself and your community much precious water by planting
things that will actually thrive in your climate.


Indeed. Even Gertrude Jekyll, the panjandrum of English gardening,
expressed puzzlement as to why Americans wanted to replicate English
gardens in climates unsuited to them. She encouraged them to
experiment with native plants and others fit for local conditions.


J. Del Col

"Cereus-validus" wrote in message . com...
Never understood why people insist on trying to create an English garden in
the desert southwest when there are thousands of other more suitable and far
more interesting Mediterranean climate plants that would do much better
under their conditions.

You will save yourself and your community much precious water by planting
things that will actually thrive in your climate.


Indeed. Even Gertrude Jekyll, the panjandrum of English gardening,
expressed puzzlement as to why Americans wanted to replicate English
gardens in climates unsuited to them. She encouraged them to
experiment with native plants and others fit for local conditions.


J. Del Col

Its symptomatic of the lack of imagination of the average American gardener.

There are a huge number of dry land plants, including trees, shrubs, vines,
bulbs and succulents, that are vastly more interesting and more colorful
than the limited selection of plants that can grow in an English garden.

Many Dutch bulbs, especially Tulips, do better under the arid Mediterranean
conditions from which they originate than the colder conditions many
gardeners force them to grow.

The wide variety of succulents from all over the world that can be grown
under arid Mediterranean conditions almost boggles the mind.


"J. Del Col" wrote in message
m...
"Cereus-validus" wrote in message
. com...
Never understood why people insist on trying to create an English garden
in
the desert southwest when there are thousands of other more suitable and
far
more interesting Mediterranean climate plants that would do much better
under their conditions.

You will save yourself and your community much precious water by
planting
things that will actually thrive in your climate.


Indeed. Even Gertrude Jekyll, the panjandrum of English gardening,
expressed puzzlement as to why Americans wanted to replicate English
gardens in climates unsuited to them. She encouraged them to
experiment with native plants and others fit for local conditions.


J. Del Col

I feel that it is presence, rather than lack, of imagination that seems to
prompt all gardeners to attempt to grow the borderline possibles.Whatever
nationality. The flora of a differing climate always seem the most
desirable. Personally I have tried and failed with many so-called exotics.
Even a little success bring much pleasure~~ Palms and Eucalypts have
flourished locally for the last twenty years in SW England and await the
first real winter!!.
However I have never seen a deliberate mass of Ivy ~~ English or
otherwise. I can think of little less desirable.
Best Wishes.
"Cereus-validus" wrote in message
. com...
Its symptomatic of the lack of imagination of the average American
gardener.

There are a huge number of dry land plants, including trees, shrubs,
vines,
bulbs and succulents, that are vastly more interesting and more colorful
than the limited selection of plants that can grow in an English garden.

Many Dutch bulbs, especially Tulips, do better under the arid
Mediterranean
conditions from which they originate than the colder conditions many
gardeners force them to grow.

The wide variety of succulents from all over the world that can be grown
under arid Mediterranean conditions almost boggles the mind.


"J. Del Col" wrote in message
m...
"Cereus-validus" wrote in message
. com...
Never understood why people insist on trying to create an English
garden
in
the desert southwest when there are thousands of other more suitable
and
far
more interesting Mediterranean climate plants that would do much
better
under their conditions.

You will save yourself and your community much precious water by
planting
things that will actually thrive in your climate.


Indeed. Even Gertrude Jekyll, the panjandrum of English gardening,
expressed puzzlement as to why Americans wanted to replicate English
gardens in climates unsuited to them. She encouraged them to
experiment with native plants and others fit for local conditions.


J. Del Col

I'm thinking of planting some sunflowers for shade. Also, buying a
used parachute for a sun shade. I would like to plant native,
drought-resistant plants, but that will take a couple of years.

Dude, you live in England and you have seem to have no idea what we are
talking about. You live in a cloudy rainy climate. You have probably never
been to the desert Southwest of the USA nor have ever experienced truly dry
conditions first hand and you would surely quickly sunburn and shrivel away
under the intense summer head and dryness if you did.

Almost everything that presently grows in England is an "exotic" because the
natives had completely decimated the forests and wiped out the original
native flora ages ago. I have seen so-called wild flower books of England
and almost every plant in it was actually an introduced weed from elsewhere
in Europe, Asia or even North America. There is now even an aquatic Crassula
from New Zealand that has become a widespread pest in England.


"Brian" wrote in message
...
I feel that it is presence, rather than lack, of imagination that seems to
prompt all gardeners to attempt to grow the borderline possibles.Whatever
nationality. The flora of a differing climate always seem the most
desirable. Personally I have tried and failed with many so-called exotics.
Even a little success bring much pleasure~~ Palms and Eucalypts have
flourished locally for the last twenty years in SW England and await the
first real winter!!.
However I have never seen a deliberate mass of Ivy ~~ English or
otherwise. I can think of little less desirable.
Best Wishes.
"Cereus-validus" wrote in message
. com...
Its symptomatic of the lack of imagination of the average American
gardener.

There are a huge number of dry land plants, including trees, shrubs,
vines,
bulbs and succulents, that are vastly more interesting and more colorful
than the limited selection of plants that can grow in an English garden.

Many Dutch bulbs, especially Tulips, do better under the arid
Mediterranean
conditions from which they originate than the colder conditions many
gardeners force them to grow.

The wide variety of succulents from all over the world that can be grown
under arid Mediterranean conditions almost boggles the mind.


"J. Del Col" wrote in message
m...
"Cereus-validus" wrote in message
. com...
Never understood why people insist on trying to create an English
garden
in
the desert southwest when there are thousands of other more suitable
and
far
more interesting Mediterranean climate plants that would do much
better
under their conditions.

You will save yourself and your community much precious water by
planting
things that will actually thrive in your climate.


Indeed. Even Gertrude Jekyll, the panjandrum of English gardening,
expressed puzzlement as to why Americans wanted to replicate English
gardens in climates unsuited to them. She encouraged them to
experiment with native plants and others fit for local conditions.


J. Del Col

Dude, you live in England and you have seem to have no idea what we are
talking about. You live in a cloudy rainy climate. You have probably never
been to the desert Southwest of the USA nor have ever experienced truly dry
conditions first hand and you would surely quickly sunburn and shrivel away
under the intense summer head and dryness if you did.

Almost everything that presently grows in England is an "exotic" because the
natives had completely decimated the forests and wiped out the original
native flora ages ago. I have seen so-called wild flower books of England
and almost every plant in it was actually an introduced weed from elsewhere
in Europe, Asia or even North America. There is now even an aquatic Crassula
from New Zealand that has become a widespread pest in England.


"Brian" wrote in message
...
I feel that it is presence, rather than lack, of imagination that seems to
prompt all gardeners to attempt to grow the borderline possibles.Whatever
nationality. The flora of a differing climate always seem the most
desirable. Personally I have tried and failed with many so-called exotics.
Even a little success bring much pleasure~~ Palms and Eucalypts have
flourished locally for the last twenty years in SW England and await the
first real winter!!.
However I have never seen a deliberate mass of Ivy ~~ English or
otherwise. I can think of little less desirable.
Best Wishes.
"Cereus-validus" wrote in message
. com...
Its symptomatic of the lack of imagination of the average American
gardener.

There are a huge number of dry land plants, including trees, shrubs,
vines,
bulbs and succulents, that are vastly more interesting and more colorful
than the limited selection of plants that can grow in an English garden.

Many Dutch bulbs, especially Tulips, do better under the arid
Mediterranean
conditions from which they originate than the colder conditions many
gardeners force them to grow.

The wide variety of succulents from all over the world that can be grown
under arid Mediterranean conditions almost boggles the mind.


"J. Del Col" wrote in message
m...
"Cereus-validus" wrote in message
. com...
Never understood why people insist on trying to create an English
garden
in
the desert southwest when there are thousands of other more suitable
and
far
more interesting Mediterranean climate plants that would do much
better
under their conditions.

You will save yourself and your community much precious water by
planting
things that will actually thrive in your climate.


Indeed. Even Gertrude Jekyll, the panjandrum of English gardening,
expressed puzzlement as to why Americans wanted to replicate English
gardens in climates unsuited to them. She encouraged them to
experiment with native plants and others fit for local conditions.


J. Del Col

The message m
from "Cereus-validus" contains these words:


Almost everything that presently grows in England is an "exotic" because the
natives had completely decimated the forests and wiped out the original
native flora ages ago.


Garbage.

Janet, Scotland.

In article , Janet Baraclough..
wrote:

The message m
from "Cereus-validus" contains these words:


Almost everything that presently grows in England is an "exotic" because the
natives had completely decimated the forests and wiped out the original
native flora ages ago.


Garbage.

Janet, Scotland.

It was certainly too sweeping a statement to be less than silly, but I
gather the best lumber forests in the UK are today Douglas fir forests
from here in the Pacific Northwest, completely naturalized & vastly too
large & swift-growing & overshadowing for native trees to survive with the
Douglas. And many forests that were completely eradicated through the past
600 years have had restoration within the last 125 years, but largely of
foreign species that at best approximated the originals. This certainly
HAD to change the dynamics of the forest floor, pollinator-behavior &
survival, when the giant plants in an ecosystem are completely changed,
very little that is smaller is going to stay the same.

Or the English Bluebell that two centuries ago was famed for its
overpowering scent of balsam & cinnamon is today completely scentless from
having become thoroughly hybridized with the always-scentless Spanish
squill, so that a pure native scilla with its former redolence is
apparently extinct. Same with hedge hawthorn, today so hybridized with
species from all over the northern hemisphere that whatever the purely
native English hawthorn was like two or three centuries ago is no longer
quite known. I read an article about English forest-edge ecosystems which
once had a wide array of native shrubs that are today dominated by
century-old Pontus rhododendrons.

It's the same story as all over the world, except the UK is so much more
finite for being islands, so that like other island ecosystems it was
always more at risk. And with a continous culture so much older than in
North America, that means the UK has had a millenia head-start on screwing
everything up.

Everyone everywhere should consider how their gardening habits changes the
whole world & not just their own yard, & not often for the better. Take a
moment to feel a bit of guilt, then get back to gardenin'.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

The message
from (paghat) contains these words:

In article , Janet Baraclough..
wrote:

The message m
from "Cereus-validus" contains these words:


Almost everything that presently grows in England is an "exotic"
because the
natives had completely decimated the forests and wiped out the original
native flora ages ago.


Garbage.

Janet, Scotland.

It was certainly too sweeping a statement to be less than silly, but I
gather the best lumber forests in the UK are today Douglas fir forests
from here in the Pacific Northwest, completely naturalized & vastly too
large & swift-growing & overshadowing for native trees to survive with the
Douglas.

You're mistaken. The "lumber forests" in Britain are purpose planted,
usually on otherwise treeless hillside. They are predominantly sitka
spruce although Douglas fir is also grown. They were mainly planted post
ww2, so as they mature for harvest they are shrinking. Those commercial
forests are separate from, and don't impinge on, our native woodlands
and there isn't a problem with naturalised Douglas firs killing out
native woodland.

And many forests that were completely eradicated through the past
600 years have had restoration within the last 125 years, but largely of
foreign species that at best approximated the originals.

There are plenty of ancient surviving woodlands, far older than 600
years; try a websearch on the Caledonian Forest.

This certainly
HAD to change the dynamics of the forest floor, pollinator-behavior &
survival, when the giant plants in an ecosystem are completely changed,
very little that is smaller is going to stay the same.

Or the English Bluebell that two centuries ago was famed for its
overpowering scent of balsam & cinnamon is today completely scentless

completely untrue

from
having become thoroughly hybridized with the always-scentless Spanish
squill, so that a pure native scilla with its former redolence is
apparently extinct.

That is mistaken. Yes, there are recent concerns about hybridisation
with the Spanish bluebell,(a garden escape) but there are still
thousands of wild places far from the curse of where the pure English
form is undiluted and as powerfully scented as ever.

Same with hedge hawthorn, today so hybridized with
species from all over the northern hemisphere that whatever the purely
native English hawthorn was like two or three centuries ago is no longer
quite known.

Try looking up the age of the Glastonbury Thorn :-)
It may be hard for Americans to imagine this, but there are countless
ancient native trees all over the UK, whose individual location and the
role they played in history has been recorded for many, many hundreds of
years. Trees used as property markers were recorded in the Domesday book
in 1086. Far earlier than that, many were protected for their religious
significance (particularly, hawthorns and yew). In other words, there's
no problem identifying the DNA of ancient native British species. We've
either got a living example, or we've got buildings, furniture etc made
from their wood, (and dated) for matching purposes. There are scores if
not hundreds of forestry and wildflower nurseries which supply stock
with DNA-proven native provenance.

I read an article about English forest-edge ecosystems which
once had a wide array of native shrubs that are today dominated by
century-old Pontus rhododendrons.

Rhododendron ponticum is indeed a pest, but only in a limited habitat
niche in parts of the wetter, milder acid-soil west of the UK. Not in
the drier colder east, or limestone areas etc. Even in
ponticum-territory, not all woodlands are affected. Native forest-edge
and forest-understory still thrives in all parts of britain.

It's the same story as all over the world, except the UK is so much more
finite for being islands, so that like other island ecosystems it was
always more at risk.

The only thing wrong with that is the mistaken premise that Britain
has lost its ancient flora and ecology; that isn't the case.

And with a continous culture so much older than in
North America, that means the UK has had a millenia head-start on screwing
everything up.

Until a few hundred years ago, our ancient culture was hugely
interdependent on our native ecology; we couldn't afford to screw it up.
We have a millenia headstart on studying and recording it, and knowing
where everything is, which is enormously useful to botanists and
ecologists. Try Oliver Rackham's books.

I'm simply astonished that two Americans who have a deep interest in
botany and ecology, should both have the extraordinarily inaccurate
impression that British native wild flora and ancient ecosystems are a
thing of the past, dead and gone. Far from it.

Janet.

Janet Baraclough.. expounded:

It may be hard for Americans to imagine this, but there are countless
ancient native trees all over the UK, whose individual location and the
role they played in history has been recorded for many, many hundreds of
years. Trees used as property markers were recorded in the Domesday book
in 1086. Far earlier than that, many were protected for their religious
significance (particularly, hawthorns and yew).

It's not hard for this American to imagine it, I've seen it. One of
my fondest memories of my trip to southwestern England was my early AM
walk through the New Forest (forgive me, but I think it was somewhere
near Tourquay. Being England, of course, the forest was anything but
new, it was ancient, the feeling I got while walking through there I
doubt I'll ever experience again. Then (my memory is going) I was a a
Norman abbey, outside of which was an 1100 year old yew that was
hollow in the middle. They kept it short over the centuries by using
the branches for arrows. The age of things I saw over there awed me.
And I also saw plenty of native plants between the gardens we visited.
Seemed a pretty complete ecosystem to me!

--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************