Does anyone have any first-hand experience in knowing the chances of
an Aristocrat Flowering Pear Tree causing damage to a home's
foundation?

I have a neighbor who decided to plant an Aristocrat Flowering Pear
Tree about 5 feet from our property line and about 17 feet from my
foundation in highly expansive clay soil that is watered almost year
round: in Califorina where we go long spells without rain. I have
water lines and sprinkler lines within feet of that tree, and a water
line about seven feet from it.

One of my concerns with this tree is potential root damage to my
home's foundation, concrete driveway, and anything I decide to put in
that area in the the future.

I've been researching root barriers, and the one idea I'm debating is
putting in a 4 to 6 feet deep (below ground) rebar reenforced concrete
wall along our property line to keep this tree from damaging my
property. Does anyone know how effective root barriers are at
different depths in the soil?

How well would a rebar reenforced below-ground wall work?

Any other ideas for an effective root barrier system?

Has anyone ever had any success in taking a neighbor to court for
intentionally planting a tree that they know will encroach on your
land and will likely damage your propery over time?

On 18 Jul 2004 16:58:36 -0700, (Frank)
wrote:

Has anyone ever had any success in taking a neighbor to court for
intentionally planting a tree that they know will encroach on your
land and will likely damage your propery over time?

You must a real fun guy to live next to. . .

deg

"Frank" wrote

in Califorina

Has anyone ever had any success in taking a neighbor to court for
intentionally planting a tree that they know will encroach on your
land and will likely damage your propery over time?

Good Grief! I pity the people of California for having to put up with you.

Pogo wrote:
"Frank" wrote


in Califorina


Has anyone ever had any success in taking a neighbor to court for
intentionally planting a tree that they know will encroach on your
land and will likely damage your propery over time?


Good Grief! I pity the people of California for having to put up with you.


I once had a neighbor that forced me to remove an Apple tree
because every year it dropped Apples in his yard. He said
his dogs ate the apples and it made them sick. About six
years after the tree was removed he lost his property when
the bank foreclosed on it. I wasn't sorry to see him and
his family go.
--
Bill R. (Ohio Valley, U.S.A)

Digital Camera: HP PhotoSmart 850

For pictures of my garden flowers visit
http://members.iglou.com/brosen

Remove NO_WEEDS_ in e-mail address to reply by e-mail

In article ,
Frank wrote:
I have a neighbor who decided to plant an Aristocrat Flowering Pear
Tree about 5 feet from our property line and about 17 feet from my
foundation in highly expansive clay soil that is watered almost year
round: in Califorina where we go long spells without rain. I have
water lines and sprinkler lines within feet of that tree, and a water
line about seven feet from it.

One of my concerns with this tree is potential root damage to my
home's foundation, concrete driveway, and anything I decide to put in
that area in the the future.

You're in luck, then. Pyrus calleryana 'Aristocrat' is very popular
as an urban and street tree, because it's a very attractive undemanding
tree that isn't prone to causing problems with the sidewalks/roads.

It's also very tolerant of variable soil and water conditions.

I've been researching root barriers, and the one idea I'm debating is
putting in a 4 to 6 feet deep (below ground) rebar reenforced concrete
wall along our property line to keep this tree from damaging my
property. Does anyone know how effective root barriers are at
different depths in the soil?
How well would a rebar reenforced below-ground wall work?
Any other ideas for an effective root barrier system?

What is your specific concern here? I notice that you've mentioned
that your soil is watered year 'round, which is fairly unusual in
California - and certainly not particularly mindful of the water
problems in many parts of California. Is there something unusual in
your garden that you think that this tree will bother?

Has anyone ever had any success in taking a neighbor to court for
intentionally planting a tree that they know will encroach on your
land and will likely damage your propery over time?

Actually your neighbour has planted a tree that's very commonly used
in landscaping because it -won't- damage your property over time. It
wolud be very hard for you to make any sort of case in the first place,
and given that the tree in question isn't known to be problematic,
even harder.

Other people have said this in a less friendly way, but it does sound
as though your primary concern here isn't the tree, and what the tree
might do to your property, as much as being able to carry on some sort
of disagreement with your neighbour.

Without having any idea what the issues are [nor quite frankly wishing
to], it might be worthwhile to attempt mediation to resolve whatever
the outstanding issues are.

cheers!
--
================================================== ========================
"A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound
desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to
avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now."

Hi Frank:

I noticed your mention of expansive soil - an engineering term. I
have some understanding of geotechnical engineering problems
associated with expansive soil - did some consulting in Asia where it
was causing big time problems with rail road embankments during
monsoon ..

Expansive soil can and does cause structural damage to buildings if
there is insufficient recognition of the problem during design. In
your case, if the water causes the soil to expand in a way that was
not anticipated, then yes, damage can occur. In your area there is
probably a recognition of the problem and building practices may be
such that these problems can be accommodated. I would not speculate on
what damage could occur not knowing the technical details. A local
geotechnical expert in you area can however.

Another problem that occurs with trees is *reduction* of the
groundwater from evapotranspiration in clay soils, consequent
consolidation of the clay stratum, and settlements of the structure
founded on the stratum. This is usually associated with large trees
like oaks so a relatively small pear tree may not apply... The thing
is, you neighbour by watering may be balancing the equation.

As for root barriers - that is a new one to me. I would assume it
woud be a costly solution for you - you better make sure there is real
danger of damage. But as I have hopefully indicated, you might have a
legitimate concern. Please let me know how this turns out.

Hedley in Canada.

***

On 18 Jul 2004 16:58:36 -0700, (Frank)
wrote:

I have a neighbor who decided to plant an Aristocrat Flowering Pear
Tree about 5 feet from our property line and about 17 feet from my
foundation in highly expansive clay soil that is watered almost year
round: in Califorina where we go long spells without rain. I have
water lines and sprinkler lines within feet of that tree, and a water
line about seven feet from it.

One of my concerns with this tree is potential root damage to my
home's foundation, concrete driveway, and anything I decide to put in
that area in the the future.

I've been researching root barriers, and the one idea I'm debating is
putting in a 4 to 6 feet deep (below ground) rebar reenforced concrete
wall along our property line to keep this tree from damaging my
property. Does anyone know how effective root barriers are at
different depths in the soil?

"Frank" wrote in message
om...
Does anyone have any first-hand experience in knowing the chances of
an Aristocrat Flowering Pear Tree causing damage to a home's
foundation?

I have a neighbor who decided to plant an Aristocrat Flowering Pear
Tree about 5 feet from our property line and about 17 feet from my
foundation in highly expansive clay soil that is watered almost year
round: in Califorina where we go long spells without rain. I have
water lines and sprinkler lines within feet of that tree, and a water
line about seven feet from it.

One of my concerns with this tree is potential root damage to my
home's foundation, concrete driveway, and anything I decide to put in
that area in the the future.

I've been researching root barriers, and the one idea I'm debating is
putting in a 4 to 6 feet deep (below ground) rebar reenforced concrete
wall along our property line to keep this tree from damaging my
property. Does anyone know how effective root barriers are at
different depths in the soil?

How well would a rebar reenforced below-ground wall work?

Any other ideas for an effective root barrier system?

Has anyone ever had any success in taking a neighbor to court for
intentionally planting a tree that they know will encroach on your
land and will likely damage your propery over time?

I think you should go ahead and do your 6' deep concrete root barrier. The
demoltion and construction--not to mention expense--associated with that
will give you something else to bitch about rather than your neighbor.
While you are at it, why don't you just build a concrete castle wall with
broken glass shards on top between you? Go ahead and put it around the
whole property. Don't forget the gun/obersvation towers. Good fences make
good neighbors after all. And you sound like you need a really good fence
in order to have really good neighbors and to protect yourself from the evil
and dangerous pear planters that you have running amok in your community.

"Frank" wrote in message
om...
Does anyone have any first-hand experience in knowing the chances of
an Aristocrat Flowering Pear Tree causing damage to a home's
foundation?


Has anyone ever had any success in taking a neighbor to court for
intentionally planting a tree that they know will encroach on your
land and will likely damage your propery over time?

In some municipalities there are "spite laws" which restrict the intentional
planting of trees to cause problems - generally blocking views - but it is a
random application and even when present, difficult if not impossible to
prove. Otherwise, there are no restrictions (other than possible
neighborhood covenants) as to what to plant and where on one's property
trees can be located. If no covenants exist and it is planted 5 feet away
from the property line, then you are SOL.

However, an 'Aristocrat' pear planted 17 feet away from your foundation is
unlikely to cause any problems, expansive soil or not. This tree simply does
not have a destructive or particularly surface-oriented root system.

It sounds like you have issues well beyond the selection and placement of
your neighbor's tree. Suggest you might want to consult a therapist rather
than an arborist or attorney. OTOH, constructing that reinforced concrete
below grade wall might be an excellent way of working off some of that
latent hostility.

pam - gardengal

LQQK,

Another problem that occurs with trees is *reduction* of the
groundwater from evapotranspiration in clay soils, consequent
consolidation of the clay stratum, and settlements of the structure
founded on the stratum. This is usually associated with large trees
like oaks so a relatively small pear tree may not apply... The thing
is, you neighbour by watering may be balancing the equation.

Is this caused by the roots taking moisture out of the soil?

http://www.marinwater.org/evapotranspiration.html

Taking this on a tangent, we can literally go 7 months without any
rain and plenty of dry baking heat, and so this highly expansive clay
really dries out around our foundation, one idea I've heard is to put
in irrigation drippers around the foundation to keep the moisture
content consistent year-round. Do you have any opinions on doing
that?

On 19 Jul 2004 08:01:02 -0700, (Frank)
wrote:

Is this caused by the roots taking moisture out of the soil?

Yes.

"Frank" wrote in message
om...
Does anyone have any first-hand experience in knowing the chances of
an Aristocrat Flowering Pear Tree causing damage to a home's
foundation?

I have a neighbor who decided to plant an Aristocrat Flowering Pear
Tree about 5 feet from our property line and about 17 feet from my
foundation in highly expansive clay soil that is watered almost year
round: in Califorina where we go long spells without rain. I have
water lines and sprinkler lines within feet of that tree, and a water
line about seven feet from it.

One of my concerns with this tree is potential root damage to my
home's foundation, concrete driveway, and anything I decide to put in
that area in the the future.

I've been researching root barriers, and the one idea I'm debating is
putting in a 4 to 6 feet deep (below ground) rebar reenforced concrete
wall along our property line to keep this tree from damaging my
property. Does anyone know how effective root barriers are at
different depths in the soil?

How well would a rebar reenforced below-ground wall work?

Any other ideas for an effective root barrier system?

Has anyone ever had any success in taking a neighbor to court for
intentionally planting a tree that they know will encroach on your
land and will likely damage your propery over time?

I hope the Aristocrat is better than the Bradford. The latter is a very
rapidly growing, flowering pear that is notorious for breaking in moderate
winds. There are many in my neighborhood that are approaching 15 years old.
Every time we have a storm, one or two split or drop large limbs.

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:59:29 GMT, wrote:

On 19 Jul 2004 08:01:02 -0700, (Frank)
wrote:

Is this caused by the roots taking moisture out of the soil?

Yes.
But the tree is also providing shade, thereby reducing the amount of
evapration directly from the soil, so the likely net effect is zero.

Check this link for a discussion of the issue from a decidedly
tree-friendly engineer:
http://users.rcn.com/bobw.enteract/UKSubsidence2.2.html

Since you are watering the soil to avoid too much drying out under the
foundation, you probably do not have to worry about this.

Keith Babberney
ISA Certified Arborist
For more info about the International Society of Arboriculture, please visit http://www.isa-arbor.com/home.asp.
For consumer info about tree care, visit http://www.treesaregood.com/

Check this link for a discussion of the issue from a decidedly
tree-friendly engineer:

Fascinating, thank you!

Here are all of the notes I've taken on this topic based on these
discussions... these are not my words... this is largely all copy and
paste from different replies or from Internet searches.

Again, I thank everyone for helping.

Root Barriers

* So, if in 10 years the tree is growing that big and you are still
worried about it, rent a Ditch Witch and trench a 4" wide, 2' deep
trench inside your property line and disconnect any roots running in
your direction. The trench would not have to be long, say 20' as the
major roots will radiate out from the trunk. You could even dig a
smaller test trench with a shovel is a couple of years just to check
things out. You can take an axe to any roots on the surface.

* If you're REALLY worried, in five years, dig a trench inside your
property line to, er, put down PVC for watering - or something. [this
will cut any roots]

* If it really bugs you, spade through any major roots you see when
you build the driveway. The rest aren't worth worrying your pretty
little head over.

* Another slant might be to verify that the tree owner may be libel
for damages to your property and also verify with a local professional
that that tree in that location might damage your property. I would
expect the owner to react.

* I would think it being Aristocrat pear at 17 feet would be more than
a safe distance from your home. If you are going to make a barrier,
24 inches of corrugated tin buried should be sufficient.

* Heavy EPDM would work as a barrier, and be easier than tin to work
with. That is what they use in the bamboo group as a root barrier.
(Heavy black rubber-like material. Used for roofing, and ponds. Can be
cut, and glued if you need to.)

* Another problem that occurs with trees is *reduction* of the
groundwater from evapotranspiration in clay soils, consequent
consolidation of the clay stratum, and settlements of the structure
founded on the stratum. This is usually associated with large trees
like oaks so a relatively small pear tree may not apply... The thing
is, you neighbour by watering may be balancing the equation.

Q: Is this caused by the roots taking moisture out of the soil?

http://www.marinwater.org/evapotranspiration.html

A: Yes, But the tree is also providing shade, thereby reducing the
amount of evaporation directly from the soil, so the likely net effect
is zero.

Check this link for a discussion of the issue from a decidedly
tree-friendly engineer:

http://users.rcn.com/bobw.enteract/UKSubsidence2.2.html

Since you are watering the soil to avoid too much drying out under the
foundation, you probably do not have to worry about this.

For more info about the International Society of Arboriculture, please
visit http://www.isa-arbor.com/home.asp.

For consumer info about tree care, visit http://www.treesaregood.com/

====

Book

A book entitled "Neighbor Law: Fences, Tree, Boundaries, and Noise" by
Cora Jordan, attorney at law, addresses such questions and many other
neighbor-law issues.

Self-Help Law

Property owners in every state have the right to prune branches or
roots of a neighbor's tree that encroach onto their property. This is
known as "self-help."

But there are limitations:

* You can prune only up to the boundary line -- at your own expense.

* If you want, you can go one step further. Your neighbor has a duty
to prevent his tree from harming your property. It seems reasonable,
then, that your neighbor should be required to pay to have the tree
removed or trimmed so that it stops damaging your house. Also, your
neighbor may be liable to you for the damages already caused by the
tree's roots.

* You should be aware of several other facts. Since tree roots usually
take years to cause damage, a judge or jury, or even your insurance
company, may find you were partially or even completely at fault for
not taking steps years ago to prevent the damage.

=====

Q: My neighbor has a non-protected tree that overhangs my yard. What
can I do about this?

A. The City authority does not address trees that are not 'regulated',
such as pines, elms, magnolias etc. when they are on private single
family zoned property. Therefore, you are entitled to trim branches in
any manner you deem necessary on your side of the property line,
providing that substantiated damage does not occur to the tree (to
which you may be held liable), as provided per California case law.
The City will play no role in this scenario.

=====

Q: Can I cut branches off a tree that are in my yard if the trunk of
the tree is in a neighbor's yard? Technically he owns the tree but
the branches affect my property.

A: I am not a lawyer, and cannot advise you as such. Having made this
disclaimer, I can give you an overview of how the law tends to work,
but recommend that you contact your attorney to back it up.

You are allowed to prune branches that extend past the property line
and over your property, but only to the property line itself, and only
if, by doing so, this pruning will not harm the tree.

You are not allowed to enter the neighbor's property (which means
entering their tree, too) without their permission, so the pruning
must be done all from your property.

If the branches are too high up to reach either from the ground or
from an aerial lift truck on your property and it's necessary to climb
the neighbor's tree to do the pruning, you DEFINITELY have to have
their permission, to remain within the law.

Pruning just to the property line rarely results in a good pruning cut
(from the tree's standpoint), so I always recommend that the neighbors
get together to discuss the situation.

It is always better to remove a branch back to the collar at its base,
and rarely is this collar exactly at the property line. If you cut a
branch just to the property line the result is almost always a stub,
which isn't desirable, and possibly harmful.

If the tree is damaging your property (i.e., hitting your roof and
damaging the shingles), you are entitled to self-help, but you may
need to have your attorney contact the neighbors if they're less than
cooperative.
Most neighbors are friendly about these things, so I would imagine
just talking with them will work out fine.

So, the best thing to do is speak with the neighbor and come to a
joint decision.

Ideally, have a qualified arborist present at the time to offer
his/her helpful input on how they would go about both accomplishing
your objective and making proper pruning cuts for the tree's sake at
the same time.

+++++

(Frank) wrote in
om:

Does anyone have any first-hand experience in knowing the chances of
an Aristocrat Flowering Pear Tree causing damage to a home's
foundation?

I have a neighbor who decided to plant an Aristocrat Flowering Pear
Tree about 5 feet from our property line and about 17 feet from my
foundation in highly expansive clay soil that is watered almost year
round: in Califorina where we go long spells without rain. I have
water lines and sprinkler lines within feet of that tree, and a water
line about seven feet from it.


These trees are very susceptible to fire blight (Erwinia amylovora). You
could claim you are an amateur biologist experimenting with this
bacterium and setup your culture generators next to the tree (on your
property). Then make the equipment have a little "accident" and release
all the pathogens on the tree. The chances of the tree recovering are
actually quite slim if you do it right.

Here is another idea but will take extraordinary acting ability. Start a
hobby as a chainsaw juggler and practice by the tree. Then pretend you
are having an epileptic seizure and saw the tree down. The trick is to
tell the police you were just doing routine practice and suddenly saw
sparks and flashes. Then the next thing you remember is you were laying
on the ground and the tree was sawed down. I used this technique to beat
my neighbor to a pulp a few years ago. I pretended to have an epileptic
seizure and started to pummel his face after I caught him looking at my
daughter in an un-christian way at a 4th of July BBQ I threw for everyone
on the block.

I know this advice is very valuable - no charge pal !