Does anyone have any first-hand experience in knowing the chances of
an Aristocrat Flowering Pear Tree causing damage to a home's
foundation?

I have a neighbor who decided to plant an Aristocrat Flowering Pear
Tree about 5 feet from our property line and about 17 feet from my
foundation in highly expansive clay soil that is watered almost year
round: in Califorina where we go long spells without rain. I have
sprinkler lines within five feet of that tree, and a water
line about seven feet from it.

One of my concerns with this tree is potential root damage to my
home's foundation, concrete driveway, and anything I decide to put in
that area in the the future.

I've been researching root barriers, and the one idea I'm debating is
putting in a 4 to 6 feet deep (below ground) rebar reenforced concrete
wall along our property line to keep this tree from damaging my
property. Does anyone know how effective root barriers are at
different depths in the soil?

How well would a rebar reenforced below-ground wall work?

Any other ideas for an effective root barrier system?

Has anyone ever had any success in taking a neighbor to court for
intentionally planting a tree that they know will encroach on your
land and will likely damage your propery over time?

On 18 Jul 2004 18:49:12 -0700, (Frank)
wrote:

Has anyone ever had any success in taking a neighbor to court for
intentionally planting a tree that they know will encroach on your
land and will likely damage your propery over time?

I'm sure glad you don't live around these parts. . .

deg

ditto


"Dewitt" wrote in message
...
On 18 Jul 2004 18:49:12 -0700, (Frank)
wrote:

Has anyone ever had any success in taking a neighbor to court for
intentionally planting a tree that they know will encroach on your
land and will likely damage your propery over time?

I'm sure glad you don't live around these parts. . .

deg

Frank wrote:
Has anyone ever had any success in taking a neighbor to court for
intentionally planting a tree that they know will encroach on your
land and will likely damage your propery over time?

First off, have you tried talking to the neighbor before suing him?
Second, while most trees are indeed planted intentionally, I seriously
doubt his intention was to damage your property. Third, the whole
concept of roots damaging home foundations is very debatable.

--
Victor Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam he
Email me he

That is also my understanding of ornamental trees. As a landscaper, I
plant quite a few under the existing canopy, if one exists. They don't
have the mass, structure and roots that non-ornamentals have.

J

Rusty Mase wrote:
=

On 19 Jul 2004 08:37:55 -0700, (Frank)
wrote:
Sir, you are correct -- that property is more at risk, and that is
what I mentioned in a letter to the actual property owner (it is a
rental property).
=

Sorry Frank, I was being a little "sporting" on with my post. The
probability of a mid-sized ornamental tree developing a root system
that does physical damage to your slab and your utilities is
exceedingly low. Ornamental trees seldom survive for more than
several dozen years and their root systems do not have time to do
subsurface damage.
=

If the neighbor had planted, for instance, a Eucalyptus tree or some
other large tree species, then you might have concerns over limbs
falling on your house - and that would be a real worry. I have only
seen full-sized Eucalyptus trees in California and they are too big
and potentially destructive for me - at least one of the species I
have seen is.
=

So, my advice would be to ignore it and enjoy the tree. After all,
you will be supplying some of the water the tree is using and you
might just defer to the possibility it will be a "neighborly" asset.
=

Rusty Mase
Paisano Industries LLP
http://www.paisano.com

-- =

Celestial Habitats by J. Kolenovsky
2003 Honorable Mention Award, Keep Houston Beautiful
=F4=BF=F4 - http://www.celestialhabitats.com - business. Quoted by the Ho=
uston
Chronicle Lazy Gardener as 1 of 7 best gardening websites in Houston.
=F4=BF=F4 - http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden/personal.html - personal

....

Sorry Frank, I was being a little "sporting" on with my post. The
probability of a mid-sized ornamental tree developing a root system
that does physical damage to your slab and your utilities is
exceedingly low. Ornamental trees seldom survive for more than
several dozen years and their root systems do not have time to do
subsurface damage.

....

Rusty,

Everyones responses have been helpful and have given me some peace of
mind. I only wish that tree had a "root damage potential rating" of
low. I've consistently seen it ranked as "Moderate" for root damage
potential, such as on the below URL. The different Eucalyptus trees
are ranked either moderate or low on the same page. I've so far been
unsuccessful in finding a web site that actually focuses in detail on
the root damage potential of different trees and how their roots
actual grow.

http://selectree.calpoly.edu/treedetail.lasso?id=1215

Root Damage Potential: Moderate /

.... "Root Damage Potential attempts to qualify the tendency trees have
of causing damage with their roots. Root damage is usually caused when
tree roots remain close to the surface of the soil. Tree roots can
cause costly damage to paving, structures or even water and sewer
lines. Because roots nearer the tree trunk will enlarge earlier and
grow more rapidly, care should be taken to space trees appropriately
from structures. Local environmental and tree care conditions, such as
soil type or watering habits, can affect a tree's root development.
Long, deep waterings can encourage downward root growth. Shallow soils
will force roots to grow horizontally rather than vertically.

The terms 'Low', 'Moderate' and 'High' are used in this category.
Avoid planting trees with high root damage potential near structures
(PG&E, 1994)."

On 20 Jul 2004 06:40:29 -0700, (Frank)
wrote:

.........The different Eucalyptus trees
are ranked either moderate or low on the same page. I've so far been
unsuccessful in finding a web site that actually focuses in detail on
the root damage potential of different trees and how their roots
actual grow.

Yes, I did not see much root damage from them, just limb fall. But
that was a grove of old trees in an older neighborhood. I was leery
of just walking under them.

The worst tree that I know of for potential root damage is eastern
cottonwood:
http://selectree.calpoly.edu/treedetail.lasso?rid=1131
And this site lists it as having a high potential. So I can believe
that.

Then again, this site lists this pear as growing to 50' high
http://selectree.calpoly.edu/treedetail.lasso?rid=1215
at a rate of up to 3' per year. Somebody put it on steroids! Pear
trees to me are like 20' high for really big ones. Then again, those
pear trees are either grown for fruit or decorate landscape islands in
shopping center parking lots. OK, some fruitless pear trees end up in
the yards of really misguided folks.

However, if this pear tree in this location is going to damage
anything then it will get your neighbors house a long time before it
can do anything to yours and your neighbor will eliminate it. We are
talking years here. So, if in 10 years the tree is growing that big
and you are still worried about it, rent a Ditch Witch and trench a 4"
wide, 2' deep trench inside your property line and disconnect any
roots running in your direction. The trench would not have to be
long, say 20' as the major roots will radiate out from the trunk. You
could even dig a smaller test trench with a shovel is a couple of
years just to check things out. You can take an axe to any roots on
the surface.

You have time to watch this situation and react accordingly in the
future. A rebar reinforced concrete root barrier is not necessary,
especially now, as roots can be easily controlled by much simpler and
cheaper methods.

Rusty Mase
Paisano Industries LLP
http://www.paisano.com

Here are all of the notes I've taken on this topic based on these
discussions... these are not my words... this is largely all copy and
paste from different replies or from Internet searches.

Again, I thank everyone for helping.

Root Barriers

* So, if in 10 years the tree is growing that big and you are still
worried about it, rent a Ditch Witch and trench a 4" wide, 2' deep
trench inside your property line and disconnect any roots running in
your direction. The trench would not have to be long, say 20' as the
major roots will radiate out from the trunk. You could even dig a
smaller test trench with a shovel is a couple of years just to check
things out. You can take an axe to any roots on the surface.

* If you're REALLY worried, in five years, dig a trench inside your
property line to, er, put down PVC for watering - or something. [this
will cut any roots]

* If it really bugs you, spade through any major roots you see when
you build the driveway. The rest aren't worth worrying your pretty
little head over.

* Another slant might be to verify that the tree owner may be libel
for damages to your property and also verify with a local professional
that that tree in that location might damage your property. I would
expect the owner to react.

* I would think it being Aristocrat pear at 17 feet would be more than
a safe distance from your home. If you are going to make a barrier,
24 inches of corrugated tin buried should be sufficient.

* Heavy EPDM would work as a barrier, and be easier than tin to work
with. That is what they use in the bamboo group as a root barrier.
(Heavy black rubber-like material. Used for roofing, and ponds. Can be
cut, and glued if you need to.)

* Another problem that occurs with trees is *reduction* of the
groundwater from evapotranspiration in clay soils, consequent
consolidation of the clay stratum, and settlements of the structure
founded on the stratum. This is usually associated with large trees
like oaks so a relatively small pear tree may not apply... The thing
is, you neighbour by watering may be balancing the equation.

Q: Is this caused by the roots taking moisture out of the soil?

http://www.marinwater.org/evapotranspiration.html

A: Yes, But the tree is also providing shade, thereby reducing the
amount of evaporation directly from the soil, so the likely net effect
is zero.

Check this link for a discussion of the issue from a decidedly
tree-friendly engineer:

http://users.rcn.com/bobw.enteract/UKSubsidence2.2.html

Since you are watering the soil to avoid too much drying out under the
foundation, you probably do not have to worry about this.

For more info about the International Society of Arboriculture, please
visit http://www.isa-arbor.com/home.asp.

For consumer info about tree care, visit http://www.treesaregood.com/

====

Book

A book entitled "Neighbor Law: Fences, Tree, Boundaries, and Noise" by
Cora Jordan, attorney at law, addresses such questions and many other
neighbor-law issues.

Self-Help Law

Property owners in every state have the right to prune branches or
roots of a neighbor's tree that encroach onto their property. This is
known as "self-help."

But there are limitations:

* You can prune only up to the boundary line -- at your own expense.

* If you want, you can go one step further. Your neighbor has a duty
to prevent his tree from harming your property. It seems reasonable,
then, that your neighbor should be required to pay to have the tree
removed or trimmed so that it stops damaging your house. Also, your
neighbor may be liable to you for the damages already caused by the
tree's roots.

* You should be aware of several other facts. Since tree roots usually
take years to cause damage, a judge or jury, or even your insurance
company, may find you were partially or even completely at fault for
not taking steps years ago to prevent the damage.

=====

Q: My neighbor has a non-protected tree that overhangs my yard. What
can I do about this?

A. The City authority does not address trees that are not 'regulated',
such as pines, elms, magnolias etc. when they are on private single
family zoned property. Therefore, you are entitled to trim branches in
any manner you deem necessary on your side of the property line,
providing that substantiated damage does not occur to the tree (to
which you may be held liable), as provided per California case law.
The City will play no role in this scenario.

=====

Q: Can I cut branches off a tree that are in my yard if the trunk of
the tree is in a neighbor's yard? Technically he owns the tree but
the branches affect my property.

A: I am not a lawyer, and cannot advise you as such. Having made this
disclaimer, I can give you an overview of how the law tends to work,
but recommend that you contact your attorney to back it up.

You are allowed to prune branches that extend past the property line
and over your property, but only to the property line itself, and only
if, by doing so, this pruning will not harm the tree.

You are not allowed to enter the neighbor's property (which means
entering their tree, too) without their permission, so the pruning
must be done all from your property.

If the branches are too high up to reach either from the ground or
from an aerial lift truck on your property and it's necessary to climb
the neighbor's tree to do the pruning, you DEFINITELY have to have
their permission, to remain within the law.

Pruning just to the property line rarely results in a good pruning cut
(from the tree's standpoint), so I always recommend that the neighbors
get together to discuss the situation.

It is always better to remove a branch back to the collar at its base,
and rarely is this collar exactly at the property line. If you cut a
branch just to the property line the result is almost always a stub,
which isn't desirable, and possibly harmful.

If the tree is damaging your property (i.e., hitting your roof and
damaging the shingles), you are entitled to self-help, but you may
need to have your attorney contact the neighbors if they're less than
cooperative.
Most neighbors are friendly about these things, so I would imagine
just talking with them will work out fine.

So, the best thing to do is speak with the neighbor and come to a
joint decision.

Ideally, have a qualified arborist present at the time to offer
his/her helpful input on how they would go about both accomplishing
your objective and making proper pruning cuts for the tree's sake at
the same time.

+++++