Well... it's moving into the latter stages of winter here and a few weeks
away from an early jump on starting seeds. That means it's time to do the
annual delurk.

I have had persistent problems starting veggie seeds the last few years,
especially tomatoes, and after much prodding finally talked to the
CoOperative Agent about it. The feeling is that I may have a fungus around
and I am recontaminating things as I go along. I have decided to not use any
seeds from last year (I never knew about the fermenting deal) and have
decided to order new from Tomato Growers... I grow no hybrids and I will
likely do a dozen of about 7 varieties (one of my old ones I cannot find,
Spindley) but the packs comes in 30's and I'm wondering if the leftovers
will still be good for next year? I know that I have used year old seeds
before, but is it normal or was I lucky?

To the extreme on that... I just found an unopened pack of Seeds Of Change
Brandywine pinks (best one out there) that is dated as 'packed for 1997'
LOL! It's unopened, and has been under a stack of literature in a little
cubby hole in the desk here. Never needed them as they gave good seeds every
year until recently. There's a lot of shipping involved for just one new
pack, and I'd like save $$$$ anywhere I can this year as money has really
tightened up here.

Also... the agent wants me to sterilize all my little plastic market packs
that I use and the shelves that I grow them on and the drip pans underneath.
Is this realistic? It seems like the dishwasher is too hot, and the 10:1
Clorox deal seems light to me. Any experiences with sterilizing everything?

Also... I was told to stop using my garden soil for seeds and go to the
soiless stuff. Is this really that big of a deal? What if I spray all of the
soil (after it's in the market packs) with Fungonil? I start my seeds early
as it's hard to predict how they'll get along with the conditions in the
house here, depending on the weather and how much the furnace runs or
doesn't. I shoot for May 1 for planting (a few earlier just for fun) and if
they take off then I rather they be in soil so as to not have to keep
transplanting them.



That's it for now... but the year is young :-)

1) Good resource about how long seeds can be stored:
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/garden/07221.html
Just remember that HOW they're stored is a big issue.

2) You didn't mention WHERE you start your seeds. If in the same room as a
gas furnace, and you occasionally smell just a touch of gas that you ignore
because it only happens when the furnace goes off or on, and even then, it's
just barely noticeable, stop ignoring it. It'll kill tiny seedlings. I
assume I don't need to tell you how I found this out. :-)

3) No garden soil. Too many variables. Buy seed starter mix, or search
online for "cornell potting soil recipe" or some such thing. Peat moss,
perlite, vermiculite, if I recall. The acidity of the peat moss somewhat
retards microorganisms. You need to add lime if you want to use it as a
long-term potting soil for most plants.

If you use the right soil, I think you can skip the sterilization of the
containers, unless they've been stored someplace damp and they smell musty.
I never sterilize mine, and haven't had ANY kind of seedling failure in 20
years. The gas leak issue was 21 years ago.....


"Ralph D." wrote in message
...
Well... it's moving into the latter stages of winter here and a few weeks
away from an early jump on starting seeds. That means it's time to do the
annual delurk.

I have had persistent problems starting veggie seeds the last few years,
especially tomatoes, and after much prodding finally talked to the
CoOperative Agent about it. The feeling is that I may have a fungus around
and I am recontaminating things as I go along. I have decided to not use
any
seeds from last year (I never knew about the fermenting deal) and have
decided to order new from Tomato Growers... I grow no hybrids and I will
likely do a dozen of about 7 varieties (one of my old ones I cannot find,
Spindley) but the packs comes in 30's and I'm wondering if the leftovers
will still be good for next year? I know that I have used year old seeds
before, but is it normal or was I lucky?

To the extreme on that... I just found an unopened pack of Seeds Of Change
Brandywine pinks (best one out there) that is dated as 'packed for 1997'
LOL! It's unopened, and has been under a stack of literature in a little
cubby hole in the desk here. Never needed them as they gave good seeds
every
year until recently. There's a lot of shipping involved for just one new
pack, and I'd like save $$$$ anywhere I can this year as money has really
tightened up here.

Also... the agent wants me to sterilize all my little plastic market packs
that I use and the shelves that I grow them on and the drip pans
underneath.
Is this realistic? It seems like the dishwasher is too hot, and the 10:1
Clorox deal seems light to me. Any experiences with sterilizing
everything?

Also... I was told to stop using my garden soil for seeds and go to the
soiless stuff. Is this really that big of a deal? What if I spray all of
the
soil (after it's in the market packs) with Fungonil? I start my seeds
early
as it's hard to predict how they'll get along with the conditions in the
house here, depending on the weather and how much the furnace runs or
doesn't. I shoot for May 1 for planting (a few earlier just for fun) and
if
they take off then I rather they be in soil so as to not have to keep
transplanting them.



That's it for now... but the year is young :-)

Ralph D. wrote:

I have had persistent problems starting veggie seeds the last few
years,
especially tomatoes, and after much prodding finally talked to the
CoOperative Agent about it. The feeling is that I may have a fungus
around
and I am recontaminating things as I go along. I have decided to not
use any
seeds from last year (I never knew about the fermenting deal) and
have
decided to order new from Tomato Growers... I grow no hybrids and I
will
likely do a dozen of about 7 varieties (one of my old ones I cannot
find,
Spindley) but the packs comes in 30's and I'm wondering if the
leftovers
will still be good for next year? I know that I have used year old
seeds
before, but is it normal or was I lucky?

If you have trouble with tomatoes, you must have really a lot of
contamination. They are amongst the hardiest seedlings you can find.

You can keep seed packets in the freezer in a ziploc bag. They will
last forever.


To the extreme on that... I just found an unopened pack of Seeds Of
Change
Brandywine pinks (best one out there) that is dated as 'packed for
1997'
LOL! It's unopened, and has been under a stack of literature in a
little
cubby hole in the desk here. Never needed them as they gave good
seeds every
year until recently. There's a lot of shipping involved for just one
new
pack, and I'd like save $$$$ anywhere I can this year as money has
really
tightened up here.

Place a few in a folded wet paper towel on top of the fridge. If they
will sprout, they are usable.


Also... the agent wants me to sterilize all my little plastic market
packs
that I use and the shelves that I grow them on and the drip pans
underneath.
Is this realistic? It seems like the dishwasher is too hot, and the
10:1
Clorox deal seems light to me. Any experiences with sterilizing
everything?

I do the Clorox thing. Works for me and you have to do it if you have,
say, a six pack that contained garden soil last year.


Also... I was told to stop using my garden soil for seeds and go to
the
soiless stuff. Is this really that big of a deal? What if I spray all
of the
soil (after it's in the market packs) with Fungonil? I start my seeds
early
as it's hard to predict how they'll get along with the conditions in
the
house here, depending on the weather and how much the furnace runs or
doesn't. I shoot for May 1 for planting (a few earlier just for fun)
and if
they take off then I rather they be in soil so as to not have to keep
transplanting them.

That is good advice. Buy new, sterilized soil at the store for your
seedlings. It's garden soil that brings in the fungus and the other
critters. It has killed a lot of seedlings at my place. The mix from
the store is very light and will allow proper root development. You
could also consider boiling a big pot of quality garden soil, drain and
dry. If it sounds messy, it is because it is messy. I do boil some (in
a very large drum) for direct planting in the garden through the mulch,
but I do it mostly to kill the seeds present in the soil, and I give it
quite a few weeks to evaporate the water.

Also, it is a bit soon to plant tomatoes that will go out May 1. I'd
wait another 3 weeks. If they are kept indoor too long, they become
weak and spindly. I keep them indoor-outdoor starting April 15 (sunny
patio, move indoors if frost is forecast) and they still get a bit on
the spindly side for my taste. Basically, you have 8 weeks to put them
out, after which they will lose vigor. they are not plants that are
happy in small pots.




That's it for now... but the year is young :-)

The cubby hole in the desk is not the best place to store seeds. It's
too warm. If you air condition your house in warm weather it's also
probably too humid. However, tomatoes are weeds and the seeds last a
long time. Put a few on a damp paper towel and keep it damp. Check them
to see if they germinate. If you were talking about lettuce or peppers,
I'd say throw them out. Tomato seeds can put up with a lot, but it's
best to check them before depending on them.

10:1 clorox is heavy. Many growers use solutions in the 1-5% range for
sanitation. Wear gloves and keep some vinegar handy in case you get some
on your hands. Do it all in a well ventilated area. An alternative is
hydrogen peroxide, 10:1 using the 3% stuff you get in the grocery store.
It's easier on your hands and lungs and you can do it indoors.

Garden soil is full of weeds and fungi (not all harmful). Use commercial
growing mix. You can get it most anywhere. It's not expensive. It's been
sterilized. It's cheaper than trying to do it yourself.

You don't describe exactly what happens to your plants. Is it damping
off? You can reduce damping off dramatically by just putting a fan in
the room where you're starting your seedlings. The air circulation will
remove humid air at the air-soil interface where the damping off fungus
takes hold of the plants.

As far as growing the tomatoes, most indoor growing arrangements don't
present enough light to the plants to keep them from getting leggy. The
solution is to put them in a south window (I assume you're in the
northern hemisphere) or use really bright lights. Keep the room air
temperature cool, 50-60 F, but it wouldn't hurt to heat the root zone.
This will encourage root growth and slow down the upper plant growth.
The top of the plant will catch up quickly when it's transplanted.





Ralph D. wrote:
Well... it's moving into the latter stages of winter here and a few weeks
away from an early jump on starting seeds. That means it's time to do the
annual delurk.

I have had persistent problems starting veggie seeds the last few years,
especially tomatoes, and after much prodding finally talked to the
CoOperative Agent about it. The feeling is that I may have a fungus around
and I am recontaminating things as I go along. I have decided to not use any
seeds from last year (I never knew about the fermenting deal) and have
decided to order new from Tomato Growers... I grow no hybrids and I will
likely do a dozen of about 7 varieties (one of my old ones I cannot find,
Spindley) but the packs comes in 30's and I'm wondering if the leftovers
will still be good for next year? I know that I have used year old seeds
before, but is it normal or was I lucky?

To the extreme on that... I just found an unopened pack of Seeds Of Change
Brandywine pinks (best one out there) that is dated as 'packed for 1997'
LOL! It's unopened, and has been under a stack of literature in a little
cubby hole in the desk here. Never needed them as they gave good seeds every
year until recently. There's a lot of shipping involved for just one new
pack, and I'd like save $$$$ anywhere I can this year as money has really
tightened up here.

Also... the agent wants me to sterilize all my little plastic market packs
that I use and the shelves that I grow them on and the drip pans underneath.
Is this realistic? It seems like the dishwasher is too hot, and the 10:1
Clorox deal seems light to me. Any experiences with sterilizing everything?

Also... I was told to stop using my garden soil for seeds and go to the
soiless stuff. Is this really that big of a deal? What if I spray all of the
soil (after it's in the market packs) with Fungonil? I start my seeds early
as it's hard to predict how they'll get along with the conditions in the
house here, depending on the weather and how much the furnace runs or
doesn't. I shoot for May 1 for planting (a few earlier just for fun) and if
they take off then I rather they be in soil so as to not have to keep
transplanting them.



That's it for now... but the year is young :-)

"dps" wrote in message
...

You don't describe exactly what happens to your plants. Is it damping off?
You can reduce damping off dramatically by just putting a fan in the room
where you're starting your seedlings. The air circulation will remove
humid air at the air-soil interface where the damping off fungus takes
hold of the plants.

Along with air circulation, it helps to add some bottom heat, using heating
cables made for this purpose. It doesn't eliminate fungi, but it accelerates
sprouting. If the seedlings reach a certain size more quickly, they'll often
"outrun" the fungi.

"Ralph D." wrote in message
...

To the extreme on that... I just found an unopened pack of Seeds Of Change
Brandywine pinks (best one out there) that is dated as 'packed for 1997'
LOL! It's unopened, and has been under a stack of literature in a little
cubby hole in the desk here. Never needed them as they gave good seeds
every
year until recently. There's a lot of shipping involved for just one new
pack, and I'd like save $$$$ anywhere I can this year as money has really
tightened up here.

Probably a good idea to see if these old seeds will germinate. I believe
tomato and pepper seeds are only good for a couple of years.
Frank

"simy1" wrote in message
oups.com...

Ralph D. wrote:

I have had persistent problems starting veggie seeds the last few
years,
especially tomatoes, and after much prodding finally talked to the
CoOperative Agent about it. The feeling is that I may have a fungus
around
and I am recontaminating things as I go along. I have decided to not
use any
seeds from last year (I never knew about the fermenting deal) and
have
decided to order new from Tomato Growers... I grow no hybrids and I
will
likely do a dozen of about 7 varieties (one of my old ones I cannot
find,
Spindley) but the packs comes in 30's and I'm wondering if the
leftovers
will still be good for next year? I know that I have used year old
seeds
before, but is it normal or was I lucky?

If you have trouble with tomatoes, you must have really a lot of
contamination. They are amongst the hardiest seedlings you can find.

You can keep seed packets in the freezer in a ziploc bag. They will
last forever.


To the extreme on that... I just found an unopened pack of Seeds Of
Change
Brandywine pinks (best one out there) that is dated as 'packed for
1997'
LOL! It's unopened, and has been under a stack of literature in a
little
cubby hole in the desk here. Never needed them as they gave good
seeds every
year until recently. There's a lot of shipping involved for just one
new
pack, and I'd like save $$$$ anywhere I can this year as money has
really
tightened up here.

Place a few in a folded wet paper towel on top of the fridge. If they
will sprout, they are usable.


Also... the agent wants me to sterilize all my little plastic market
packs
that I use and the shelves that I grow them on and the drip pans
underneath.
Is this realistic? It seems like the dishwasher is too hot, and the
10:1
Clorox deal seems light to me. Any experiences with sterilizing
everything?

I do the Clorox thing. Works for me and you have to do it if you have,
say, a six pack that contained garden soil last year.


Also... I was told to stop using my garden soil for seeds and go to
the
soiless stuff. Is this really that big of a deal? What if I spray all
of the
soil (after it's in the market packs) with Fungonil? I start my seeds
early
as it's hard to predict how they'll get along with the conditions in
the
house here, depending on the weather and how much the furnace runs or
doesn't. I shoot for May 1 for planting (a few earlier just for fun)
and if
they take off then I rather they be in soil so as to not have to keep
transplanting them.

That is good advice. Buy new, sterilized soil at the store for your
seedlings. It's garden soil that brings in the fungus and the other
critters. It has killed a lot of seedlings at my place. The mix from
the store is very light and will allow proper root development. You
could also consider boiling a big pot of quality garden soil, drain and
dry. If it sounds messy, it is because it is messy. I do boil some (in
a very large drum) for direct planting in the garden through the mulch,
but I do it mostly to kill the seeds present in the soil, and I give it
quite a few weeks to evaporate the water.

Also, it is a bit soon to plant tomatoes that will go out May 1. I'd
wait another 3 weeks. If they are kept indoor too long, they become
weak and spindly. I keep them indoor-outdoor starting April 15 (sunny
patio, move indoors if frost is forecast) and they still get a bit on
the spindly side for my taste. Basically, you have 8 weeks to put them
out, after which they will lose vigor. they are not plants that are
happy in small pots.


Well... I always try to get a jump on things but if the weather isn't
cooperating they do OK in market packs with garden soil and some regular
doses of Miracle Gro... until the last few years that is.





That's it for now... but the year is young :-)

"dps" wrote in message
...
The cubby hole in the desk is not the best place to store seeds. It's
too warm. If you air condition your house in warm weather it's also
probably too humid. However, tomatoes are weeds and the seeds last a
long time. Put a few on a damp paper towel and keep it damp. Check them
to see if they germinate. If you were talking about lettuce or peppers,
I'd say throw them out. Tomato seeds can put up with a lot, but it's
best to check them before depending on them.


Not sure how the seeds got there, I'm gonna see if they shoot

10:1 clorox is heavy. Many growers use solutions in the 1-5% range for
sanitation. Wear gloves and keep some vinegar handy in case you get some
on your hands. Do it all in a well ventilated area. An alternative is
hydrogen peroxide, 10:1 using the 3% stuff you get in the grocery store.
It's easier on your hands and lungs and you can do it indoors.


Interesting. I used to use a lot of Clorox on an old job and we made it very
strong for sanitiziing which had me thinking she didn't make it strong
enough. Last night a guy was telling me that any stronger that 10% might
leave a chlorine residue that might be a really bad thing in my market
packs... I might just buy new.

Garden soil is full of weeds and fungi (not all harmful). Use commercial
growing mix. You can get it most anywhere. It's not expensive. It's been
sterilized. It's cheaper than trying to do it yourself.


I suppose. I just hate to put much $$$ into things where I don't have to,
and garden soil was always good to have in there if the weather was slow and
they had to live indoor longer than expected.

You don't describe exactly what happens to your plants. Is it damping
off? You can reduce damping off dramatically by just putting a fan in
the room where you're starting your seedlings. The air circulation will
remove humid air at the air-soil interface where the damping off fungus
takes hold of the plants.

As far as growing the tomatoes, most indoor growing arrangements don't
present enough light to the plants to keep them from getting leggy. The
solution is to put them in a south window (I assume you're in the
northern hemisphere) or use really bright lights. Keep the room air
temperature cool, 50-60 F, but it wouldn't hurt to heat the root zone.
This will encourage root growth and slow down the upper plant growth.
The top of the plant will catch up quickly when it's transplanted.


This brings up a topic that I would be better to start a new thread on...
the lights that is.





Ralph D. wrote:
Well... it's moving into the latter stages of winter here and a few
weeks
away from an early jump on starting seeds. That means it's time to do
the
annual delurk.

I have had persistent problems starting veggie seeds the last few years,
especially tomatoes, and after much prodding finally talked to the
CoOperative Agent about it. The feeling is that I may have a fungus
around
and I am recontaminating things as I go along. I have decided to not use
any
seeds from last year (I never knew about the fermenting deal) and have
decided to order new from Tomato Growers... I grow no hybrids and I will
likely do a dozen of about 7 varieties (one of my old ones I cannot
find,
Spindley) but the packs comes in 30's and I'm wondering if the leftovers
will still be good for next year? I know that I have used year old seeds
before, but is it normal or was I lucky?

To the extreme on that... I just found an unopened pack of Seeds Of
Change
Brandywine pinks (best one out there) that is dated as 'packed for 1997'
LOL! It's unopened, and has been under a stack of literature in a little
cubby hole in the desk here. Never needed them as they gave good seeds
every
year until recently. There's a lot of shipping involved for just one new
pack, and I'd like save $$$$ anywhere I can this year as money has
really
tightened up here.

Also... the agent wants me to sterilize all my little plastic market
packs
that I use and the shelves that I grow them on and the drip pans
underneath.
Is this realistic? It seems like the dishwasher is too hot, and the 10:1
Clorox deal seems light to me. Any experiences with sterilizing
everything?

Also... I was told to stop using my garden soil for seeds and go to the
soiless stuff. Is this really that big of a deal? What if I spray all of
the
soil (after it's in the market packs) with Fungonil? I start my seeds
early
as it's hard to predict how they'll get along with the conditions in the
house here, depending on the weather and how much the furnace runs or
doesn't. I shoot for May 1 for planting (a few earlier just for fun) and
if
they take off then I rather they be in soil so as to not have to keep
transplanting them.



That's it for now... but the year is young :-)

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"dps" wrote in message
...

You don't describe exactly what happens to your plants. Is it damping
off?
You can reduce damping off dramatically by just putting a fan in the
room
where you're starting your seedlings. The air circulation will remove
humid air at the air-soil interface where the damping off fungus takes
hold of the plants.

Along with air circulation, it helps to add some bottom heat, using
heating
cables made for this purpose. It doesn't eliminate fungi, but it
accelerates
sprouting. If the seedlings reach a certain size more quickly, they'll
often
"outrun" the fungi.



I've tried to think up a poor man's solution to bottom heating for a while
and never really came up with one. The new area would have a gas heater on
the floor with the market packs sitting in foil trays so that the rising
heat might warm the metal faster and that's about the best I can think of at
this point.

"Ralph D." wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"dps" wrote in message
...

You don't describe exactly what happens to your plants. Is it damping
off?
You can reduce damping off dramatically by just putting a fan in the
room
where you're starting your seedlings. The air circulation will remove
humid air at the air-soil interface where the damping off fungus takes
hold of the plants.

Along with air circulation, it helps to add some bottom heat, using
heating
cables made for this purpose. It doesn't eliminate fungi, but it
accelerates
sprouting. If the seedlings reach a certain size more quickly, they'll
often
"outrun" the fungi.



I've tried to think up a poor man's solution to bottom heating for a while
and never really came up with one. The new area would have a gas heater on
the floor with the market packs sitting in foil trays so that the rising
heat might warm the metal faster and that's about the best I can think of
at
this point.

The poor man's solution also happens to be the cheapest way and the best
way. Check your yellow pages for some nurseries which sell seed planting
supplies. There are inexpensive heating cables made to be placed in the
bottoms of plant trays. You install them in the trays with duct tape. You
put a layer of gravel on top to diffuse the heat, and your six-packs on top
of the gravel. The cables are waterproof. The trays I've used for years are
light green, thick plastic, not the floppy ones that garden centers
sometimes let you take when you buy six-packs.

If you call around and get teenagers who put you on hold and forget you, go
to plan B: Call this sto
Harris Gardens
585-45-1985
Ask them if they have the long green trays in stock, and heating cables. Ask
if they'll ship you some. They're nice people, so I'm sure they will. I only
glanced at the cables last time I was there, so I can only guess, but I'll
guess you'll pay $12.00 per tray/cable combo, plus the cost of duct tape,
gravel, and perhaps a timer.

Or, you could go to www.gardeners.com and spend an arm and a leg on heat
mats, which start at $38.95. They look nice, but.....try the above, first.

Doug Kanter wrote:
If you call around and get teenagers who put you on hold and forget
you, go to plan B: Call this sto
Harris Gardens
585-45-1985

What kind of phone number is that? Looks like a SSAN to me.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8b
Sunset Zone 5

I've had pretty good success with my seedlings, so allow me to offer my
two cents.

First of all, definitely sterilize any pots you're going to reuse this
season. A solution of 10 parts water to 1 part Clorox should be fine.
I don't know whether you really have to douse everything in sight, but
at the very least, sterilize everything that the growing medium, seeds
or plants will come in contact with.

Definitely get specially formulated germinating mix, NOT garden soil.
Of all the brands I've tried, I prefer the Germinating Mix from
Gardener's Supply Company. It's very fine and I've had great results
using it. Follow this link: http://tinyurl.com/3s3ml

While you're there, I also highly recommend investing in one of the APS
seed starting units. They come in trays with 24 spaces, as well as 12
spaces that fit perfectly on a sunny window ledge. This self-watering
system makes it so you only have to water your seedlings about once a
week. Letting them dry out is the quickest way to stunt their growth,
if not downright kill 'em! I know you mentioned trying to keep it
economical, but they're reusable year after year. Worth the $10, IMO.

I planted my seeds in my seed starting units this past weekend, and
already the Zinnias, Scabiosa, and Forget Me Nots have sprouted! No
tomatoes just yet, but it won't be long!

Best of luck this season.

-Fleemo