Hello!

I have the Phal. Orchid World `Carmela `and I would like to know how to you
do to find out the parent of this plant?

I tried a few database but it`s not working or I am completely dumb.

Claude

Genealogy of Phal Orchid World


Phal Orchid World = Phal Malibu Imp X Phal Deventeriana 1984
Phal Malibu Imp = Phal amboinensis X Phal Luedde-violacea 1977
Phal Deventeriana = Phal amabilis X Phal amboinensis 1927
Phal amboinensis = species
Phal Luedde-violacea = Phal lueddemanniana X Phal violacea 1895
Phal amabilis = species
Phal lueddemanniana = species
Phal violacea = species


--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"Claude" wrote in message
...
Hello!

I have the Phal. Orchid World `Carmela `and I would like to know how to
you
do to find out the parent of this plant?

I tried a few database but it`s not working or I am completely dumb.

Claude

Claude,
It just so happens that I had inquired about the parentage of a Phal Orchid
World 'Joe' on alt.binaries.pictures.orchids recently, and Susan Erickson
had responded. If I understand correctly the perantage of 'Carmela' should
be the same as the 'Joe', but maybe just from different growers, right? Here
is Sue's response to my query:
"Susan Erickson" wrote

It is Phal Malibu Imp x Deventeriana

It is 50 % amboinensis,

25% amabilis

12.5% lueddemannia

and finally 12.5% violacea.

SuE

"Claude" wrote in message
...
Hello!

I have the Phal. Orchid World `Carmela `and I would like to know how to
you
do to find out the parent of this plant?

I tried a few database but it`s not working or I am completely dumb.

Claude

Thank you ray!

How did you do that?

Thanks

Claude

"Ray" wrote in message
...
| Genealogy of Phal Orchid World
|
|
| Phal Orchid World = Phal Malibu Imp X Phal Deventeriana 1984
| Phal Malibu Imp = Phal amboinensis X Phal Luedde-violacea 1977
| Phal Deventeriana = Phal amabilis X Phal amboinensis 1927
| Phal amboinensis = species
| Phal Luedde-violacea = Phal lueddemanniana X Phal violacea 1895
| Phal amabilis = species
| Phal lueddemanniana = species
| Phal violacea = species
|
|
| --
|
| Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
| Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
|
| . . . . . . . . . . .
| "Claude" wrote in message
| ...
| Hello!
|
| I have the Phal. Orchid World `Carmela `and I would like to know how to
| you
| do to find out the parent of this plant?
|
| I tried a few database but it`s not working or I am completely dumb.
|
| Claude
|
|
|
|

Genealogy of Phal Orchid World


Phal Orchid World = Phal Malibu Imp X Phal Deventeriana 1984
Phal Malibu Imp = Phal amboinensis X Phal Luedde-violacea 1977
Phal Deventeriana = Phal amabilis X Phal amboinensis 1927
Phal amboinensis = species
Phal Luedde-violacea = Phal lueddemanniana X Phal violacea 1895
Phal amabilis = species
Phal lueddemanniana = species
Phal violacea = species


--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"Claude" wrote in message
...
Hello!

I have the Phal. Orchid World `Carmela `and I would like to know how to
you
do to find out the parent of this plant?

I tried a few database but it`s not working or I am completely dumb.

Claude

Claude,
It just so happens that I had inquired about the parentage of a Phal Orchid
World 'Joe' on alt.binaries.pictures.orchids recently, and Susan Erickson
had responded. If I understand correctly the perantage of 'Carmela' should
be the same as the 'Joe', but maybe just from different growers, right? Here
is Sue's response to my query:
"Susan Erickson" wrote

It is Phal Malibu Imp x Deventeriana

It is 50 % amboinensis,

25% amabilis

12.5% lueddemannia

and finally 12.5% violacea.

SuE

"Claude" wrote in message
...
Hello!

I have the Phal. Orchid World `Carmela `and I would like to know how to
you
do to find out the parent of this plant?

I tried a few database but it`s not working or I am completely dumb.

Claude

Thank you ray!

How did you do that?

Thanks

Claude

"Ray" wrote in message
...
| Genealogy of Phal Orchid World
|
|
| Phal Orchid World = Phal Malibu Imp X Phal Deventeriana 1984
| Phal Malibu Imp = Phal amboinensis X Phal Luedde-violacea 1977
| Phal Deventeriana = Phal amabilis X Phal amboinensis 1927
| Phal amboinensis = species
| Phal Luedde-violacea = Phal lueddemanniana X Phal violacea 1895
| Phal amabilis = species
| Phal lueddemanniana = species
| Phal violacea = species
|
|
| --
|
| Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
| Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
|
| . . . . . . . . . . .
| "Claude" wrote in message
| ...
| Hello!
|
| I have the Phal. Orchid World `Carmela `and I would like to know how to
| you
| do to find out the parent of this plant?
|
| I tried a few database but it`s not working or I am completely dumb.
|
| Claude
|
|
|
|

Actually Joanna, 'Carmela' and 'Joe' could be from the very same parents.

Basically, once a cross is bloomed and named, such as Orchid World, each and
every plant from the cross of Malibu Imp and Deventeriana - even if it's the
reciprocal cross, Deventeriana x Malibu Imp - is Orchid World.

From among the different Orchid Worlds out there, some are likely to have
outstanding characteristics, so the owner has the right to attach a cultivar
name to the plant, in these cases, 'Joe' and 'Carmela.' They could have
been from the very same seed capsule or from a totally different set of
parents.

Anyone can attach a cultivar name to any plant they own that does not
already have one. There is no registration involved as there is for grex
names like "Orchid World." If I got a particularly nice Orchid World, I
could print the tag to say Phalaenopsis Orchid World 'First Rays', but if I
had 'Joe' it would always be 'Joe'.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"J Fortuna" wrote in message
...
Claude,
It just so happens that I had inquired about the parentage of a Phal
Orchid
World 'Joe' on alt.binaries.pictures.orchids recently, and Susan Erickson
had responded. If I understand correctly the perantage of 'Carmela' should
be the same as the 'Joe', but maybe just from different growers, right?
Here
is Sue's response to my query:
"Susan Erickson" wrote

It is Phal Malibu Imp x Deventeriana

It is 50 % amboinensis,

25% amabilis

12.5% lueddemannia

and finally 12.5% violacea.

SuE

"Claude" wrote in message
...
Hello!

I have the Phal. Orchid World `Carmela `and I would like to know how to
you
do to find out the parent of this plant?

I tried a few database but it`s not working or I am completely dumb.

Claude

Copied it straight out of Wildcatt...

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"Claude" wrote in message
.. .
Thank you ray!

How did you do that?

Thanks

Claude

"Ray" wrote in message
...
| Genealogy of Phal Orchid World
|
|
| Phal Orchid World = Phal Malibu Imp X Phal Deventeriana 1984
| Phal Malibu Imp = Phal amboinensis X Phal Luedde-violacea 1977
| Phal Deventeriana = Phal amabilis X Phal amboinensis 1927
| Phal amboinensis = species
| Phal Luedde-violacea = Phal lueddemanniana X Phal violacea
1895
| Phal amabilis = species
| Phal lueddemanniana = species
| Phal violacea = species
|
|
| --
|
| Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
| Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
|
| . . . . . . . . . . .
| "Claude" wrote in message
| ...
| Hello!
|
| I have the Phal. Orchid World `Carmela `and I would like to know how
to
| you
| do to find out the parent of this plant?
|
| I tried a few database but it`s not working or I am completely dumb.
|
| Claude
|
|
|
|

It seems to me that a lot of people have difficulty understanding the
information provided by the tag and what it tells us about the plant. That
'cultivar name' in particular really throws some people. It is worth it to
every collector to learn how to read and write those darn tags. At a show
once I found a Phal species with a tag that read: Phal. cornu-cervi
'RedWing'. There was a whole group of them all labeled the same and so I
asked the vendor if the plant was a stem prop or a mericlone and she looked
at the tag and responded: "They are all seed grown and every one will be
different." You would have to understand what the tag told me about the
group of plants to know why the vendor's response was a complete
contradiction: either she didn't know what she was talking about or the tag
was wrong. So I asked, "So these are not all the clone 'RedWing' but
seedlings?" and her answer was "Oh no, they're all 'RedWing'" and that was
about all I could take. Of course, I bought the plant anyway.

The above scenario is one of the essay questions on your test and you won't
get your 'official' orchid addict card until you can explain why it did not
make sense. Of course you can go on collecting orchids and even selling
them apparently without having a clue, but you will have to do it without
any official looking card in your wallet.

The species percentage chart in wildcat is interesting but it can easily
mislead and should only be used as a vague guide to understanding what a
particular plant or group of plants will look like. If the tiny purple
flower genes of equestris are heavily selected for over 15 generations of
hybridizing the chart might hint that the plant is only 5% equestris (since
it was used twice 13 generations ago) but the flower might look very much
like equestris and indeed have inherited a much greater or lesser percentage
of genes from this species. Gene segregation during sexual reproduction is
not known for it's mathematical precision.

The second tree chart from wildcat that Ray posted later in this thread
tells you a bit more. Used together with the percentage chart and LOTS of
knowledge of breeding trends over the generations it took to make the cross
(to better help you determine the characteristics of the particular
'cultivar' of a registered grex that was in fashion and probably used as the
great-great-great grand parent) and you can make an educated guess as to
what a plant might look like when it blooms...and still be wrong a fair
portion of the time, especially if you try to be very specific. Of course,
I know from experience that when a vendor answers the question "What color
is this one going to be?" with something as waffle-ly as "Ah, maybe a large
solid yellow but white is possible and so is yellow with red spots or bars",
that the plant will probably not be sold.

"Ray" wrote in message
...
Actually Joanna, 'Carmela' and 'Joe' could be from the very same parents.

Basically, once a cross is bloomed and named, such as Orchid World, each
and
every plant from the cross of Malibu Imp and Deventeriana - even if it's
the
reciprocal cross, Deventeriana x Malibu Imp - is Orchid World.

From among the different Orchid Worlds out there, some are likely to have
outstanding characteristics, so the owner has the right to attach a
cultivar
name to the plant, in these cases, 'Joe' and 'Carmela.' They could have
been from the very same seed capsule or from a totally different set of
parents.

Anyone can attach a cultivar name to any plant they own that does not
already have one. There is no registration involved as there is for grex
names like "Orchid World." If I got a particularly nice Orchid World, I
could print the tag to say Phalaenopsis Orchid World 'First Rays', but if
I
had 'Joe' it would always be 'Joe'.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

. . . . . . . . . . .
"J Fortuna" wrote in message
...
Claude,
It just so happens that I had inquired about the parentage of a Phal
Orchid
World 'Joe' on alt.binaries.pictures.orchids recently, and Susan
Erickson
had responded. If I understand correctly the perantage of 'Carmela'
should
be the same as the 'Joe', but maybe just from different growers, right?
Here
is Sue's response to my query:
"Susan Erickson" wrote

It is Phal Malibu Imp x Deventeriana

It is 50 % amboinensis,

25% amabilis

12.5% lueddemannia

and finally 12.5% violacea.

SuE

"Claude" wrote in message
...
Hello!

I have the Phal. Orchid World `Carmela `and I would like to know how
to
you
do to find out the parent of this plant?

I tried a few database but it`s not working or I am completely dumb.

Claude

Claud this was a useful question for me. Thank you for posting it and
special thanks to Ray and Al for their clarification. Although having read
this distinction many times, I think I finally got it.

Hope you're feeling better Ray.

Happy MLK Day.

Frank
"Claude" wrote in message
...
Hello!

I have the Phal. Orchid World `Carmela `and I would like to know how to
you
do to find out the parent of this plant?

I tried a few database but it`s not working or I am completely dumb.

Claude

"J Fortuna" wrote in message . ..
Claude,
It just so happens that I had inquired about the parentage of a Phal Orchid
World 'Joe' on alt.binaries.pictures.orchids recently, and Susan Erickson
had responded.
(snip)
Here is Sue's response to my query:
It is Phal Malibu Imp x Deventeriana

It is 50 % amboinensis,
25% amabilis
12.5% lueddemannia
and finally 12.5% violacea.

Just be aware that those percentages are an average across the entire
population of of Phal. Orchid World. Due to the vagaries of meiotic
recombination and segregation, individual plants will have different
contributions from ancestors a couple of generations back.

Nick

"J Fortuna" wrote in message . ..
Claude,
It just so happens that I had inquired about the parentage of a Phal Orchid
World 'Joe' on alt.binaries.pictures.orchids recently, and Susan Erickson
had responded.
(snip)
Here is Sue's response to my query:
It is Phal Malibu Imp x Deventeriana

It is 50 % amboinensis,
25% amabilis
12.5% lueddemannia
and finally 12.5% violacea.

Just be aware that those percentages are an average across the entire
population of of Phal. Orchid World. Due to the vagaries of meiotic
recombination and segregation, individual plants will have different
contributions from ancestors a couple of generations back.

Nick

Al wrote:

every collector to learn how to read and write those darn tags. At a show
once I found a Phal species with a tag that read: Phal. cornu-cervi
'RedWing'. There was a whole group of them all labeled the same and so I
asked the vendor if the plant was a stem prop or a mericlone and she looked
at the tag and responded: "They are all seed grown and every one will be
different." You would have to understand what the tag told me about the
group of plants to know why the vendor's response was a complete
contradiction: either she didn't know what she was talking about or the tag
was wrong. So I asked, "So these are not all the clone 'RedWing' but
seedlings?" and her answer was "Oh no, they're all 'RedWing'" and that was
about all I could take. Of course, I bought the plant anyway.


Al, the space aliens are offering to give your brain back if you
don't ever do that again. Stupid and/or uneducated vendors should be
culled in the way nature intended. I'd personally prefer hungry wolves,
but market forces are good too. At some point the professor in me takes
over and I give them a (not infrequently polite) lecture on the errors
of their ways. I'm sure that makes me a (use whatever rude expletive
you choose), but I'm just a wolf in Hawaiian's clothing (Aloha shirt) at
most orchid shows, helping the market forces.

There are always other places to buy things, and in my opinion, we
should try to support the good vendors who know what they are talking
about. It drives me nuts that some otherwise knowledgable growers do
stupid things, like call a single species a 'specie' (I can't express
how much I hate that! - Ok, it is Dana at Hausermanns, give him hell for
me). People who have been growing for decades are allowed a few quirks,
what bothers me is people who decide that they will become vendors after
growing a couple orchids for a year, knowing nothing about orchids and
perhaps a few things about capitalism. Come back in a few years when
you know what you are talking about, and I'll be happy to do business
with you.

Anyway, that is how I screen my vendors... They have to know their
stock, and have at least a rudimentary understanding of how plants are
named. I prefer evidence that they actually grow the plants themselves
for a period of time, rather than just wholesaling budded stock. The
good ones know the breeding behind their plants, even if they didn't
actually make the cross. The best ones know the breeding behind plants
that their competitors are offering... You can learn alot about vendors
you haven't even met (like on the internet) just by applying the rules
of plant naming to their website. I can't trust somebody who can't get
genus and species correct and properly formatted (genus capitalized,
species not, etc.). Now if I've met them in person I may let such
little things slide, but the internet is chock full o' idiots (myself
included, I suspect).

Rob (not a vendor... or a shark, for that matter.)

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

Al wrote:

every collector to learn how to read and write those darn tags. At a show
once I found a Phal species with a tag that read: Phal. cornu-cervi
'RedWing'. There was a whole group of them all labeled the same and so I
asked the vendor if the plant was a stem prop or a mericlone and she looked
at the tag and responded: "They are all seed grown and every one will be
different." You would have to understand what the tag told me about the
group of plants to know why the vendor's response was a complete
contradiction: either she didn't know what she was talking about or the tag
was wrong. So I asked, "So these are not all the clone 'RedWing' but
seedlings?" and her answer was "Oh no, they're all 'RedWing'" and that was
about all I could take. Of course, I bought the plant anyway.


Al, the space aliens are offering to give your brain back if you
don't ever do that again. Stupid and/or uneducated vendors should be
culled in the way nature intended. I'd personally prefer hungry wolves,
but market forces are good too. At some point the professor in me takes
over and I give them a (not infrequently polite) lecture on the errors
of their ways. I'm sure that makes me a (use whatever rude expletive
you choose), but I'm just a wolf in Hawaiian's clothing (Aloha shirt) at
most orchid shows, helping the market forces.

There are always other places to buy things, and in my opinion, we
should try to support the good vendors who know what they are talking
about. It drives me nuts that some otherwise knowledgable growers do
stupid things, like call a single species a 'specie' (I can't express
how much I hate that! - Ok, it is Dana at Hausermanns, give him hell for
me). People who have been growing for decades are allowed a few quirks,
what bothers me is people who decide that they will become vendors after
growing a couple orchids for a year, knowing nothing about orchids and
perhaps a few things about capitalism. Come back in a few years when
you know what you are talking about, and I'll be happy to do business
with you.

Anyway, that is how I screen my vendors... They have to know their
stock, and have at least a rudimentary understanding of how plants are
named. I prefer evidence that they actually grow the plants themselves
for a period of time, rather than just wholesaling budded stock. The
good ones know the breeding behind their plants, even if they didn't
actually make the cross. The best ones know the breeding behind plants
that their competitors are offering... You can learn alot about vendors
you haven't even met (like on the internet) just by applying the rules
of plant naming to their website. I can't trust somebody who can't get
genus and species correct and properly formatted (genus capitalized,
species not, etc.). Now if I've met them in person I may let such
little things slide, but the internet is chock full o' idiots (myself
included, I suspect).

Rob (not a vendor... or a shark, for that matter.)

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit