Well... I probably should know the answer to this. But I don't. I
have a customer who would like to take a hybrid paph (Maudiae type) back
to his father in Argentina (from the US). I know that paph species are
CITES appendix 1, and I wouldn't even dream of letting him try it.
Hybrids probably shouldn't be appendix I (but maybe are). I don't want
to sell him the plant if he is going to get in trouble for it.

So, if he takes a plant in his carry on luggage, what would the legal
requirements be? Does a single hybrid paph require import/export
paperwork, or can it go as a non-regulated houseplant? If so, it should
be packed bare-root, I presume?

Thoughts?

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit
LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list )

He needs CITES and an import/export permit.

That said there have been reports of people going through Miami able to
bring in plants without paperwork, as long as they are in the person's
luggage and there are only a few of them. I've heard 2-3.

Of course, Michael Kovach only had one....

All this is info pre 9-11, and from what I understand inspectors go through
luggage like crazy now.

So.

I don't know how to advise you.

Since newsgroup posts are stored in perpetua, I'll say he needs paperwork
and don't sell it to him.

K Barrett


"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Well... I probably should know the answer to this. But I don't. I
have a customer who would like to take a hybrid paph (Maudiae type) back
to his father in Argentina (from the US). I know that paph species are
CITES appendix 1, and I wouldn't even dream of letting him try it.
Hybrids probably shouldn't be appendix I (but maybe are). I don't want
to sell him the plant if he is going to get in trouble for it.

So, if he takes a plant in his carry on luggage, what would the legal
requirements be? Does a single hybrid paph require import/export
paperwork, or can it go as a non-regulated houseplant? If so, it should
be packed bare-root, I presume?

Thoughts?

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit
LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list )

He needs CITES and an import/export permit.

That said there have been reports of people going through Miami able to
bring in plants without paperwork, as long as they are in the person's
luggage and there are only a few of them. I've heard 2-3.

Of course, Michael Kovach only had one....

All this is info pre 9-11, and from what I understand inspectors go through
luggage like crazy now.

So.

I don't know how to advise you.

Since newsgroup posts are stored in perpetua, I'll say he needs paperwork
and don't sell it to him.

K Barrett


"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Well... I probably should know the answer to this. But I don't. I
have a customer who would like to take a hybrid paph (Maudiae type) back
to his father in Argentina (from the US). I know that paph species are
CITES appendix 1, and I wouldn't even dream of letting him try it.
Hybrids probably shouldn't be appendix I (but maybe are). I don't want
to sell him the plant if he is going to get in trouble for it.

So, if he takes a plant in his carry on luggage, what would the legal
requirements be? Does a single hybrid paph require import/export
paperwork, or can it go as a non-regulated houseplant? If so, it should
be packed bare-root, I presume?

Thoughts?

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit
LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list )

Rob:

Please see:

http://international.fws.gov/pdf/cpc.pdf

Note under "Personal or Household Effects," there are exemptions
for "accompanying the owner and intended for personal use." Also that
"Appendix-I specimens may be exported by a U.S. resident without CITES
documents, provided the foreign country does not require a CITES permit."

Moreover, I seem to recall some wording that knocks orchid species
down a step if they're hybrids: hybrids of Appendix I would then be
treated as Appendix II. However, the CITES website is so poor and the FWS
isn't much better, so I can't provide a citation for this claim as I can
never find what I need at either location.

Bob has this in his paph FAQ, however, at:

www.ladyslipper.com/paphfaq.pdf

On page 24:

"Paphiopedilum and Phragmipedium have been placed on Appendix I
under The Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species
(CITES)... Artificially propagated Paphs and Phrags are considered
Appendix II plants, which can be traded across international boundaries
with appropriate documentation."

While this doesn't say "hybrids," it is implicit with orchids that
artificial hybrids constitute artificial propagation as a function of
their origins and methods of propagation.

Please note- I'm no lawyer, and only a fool would think that on
the basis of my ramblings here.


The email address in the header is bogus. Send no mail there.

-AJHicks
Chandler, AZ

Thanks Aaron. It is apparent to me that even the professionals who
execute the regulations (customs, etc) can't even agree on an
interpretation. This would (to me) seem to indicate that perhaps the
regulations need some simplifying, but I know that this would never
happen...


Thanks

Rob


Aaron Hicks wrote:

Rob:

Please see:

http://international.fws.gov/pdf/cpc.pdf

Note under "Personal or Household Effects," there are exemptions
for "accompanying the owner and intended for personal use." Also that
"Appendix-I specimens may be exported by a U.S. resident without CITES
documents, provided the foreign country does not require a CITES permit."

Moreover, I seem to recall some wording that knocks orchid species
down a step if they're hybrids: hybrids of Appendix I would then be
treated as Appendix II. However, the CITES website is so poor and the FWS
isn't much better, so I can't provide a citation for this claim as I can
never find what I need at either location.

Bob has this in his paph FAQ, however, at:

www.ladyslipper.com/paphfaq.pdf

On page 24:

"Paphiopedilum and Phragmipedium have been placed on Appendix I
under The Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species
(CITES)... Artificially propagated Paphs and Phrags are considered
Appendix II plants, which can be traded across international boundaries
with appropriate documentation."

While this doesn't say "hybrids," it is implicit with orchids that
artificial hybrids constitute artificial propagation as a function of
their origins and methods of propagation.

Please note- I'm no lawyer, and only a fool would think that on
the basis of my ramblings here.


The email address in the header is bogus. Send no mail there.

-AJHicks
Chandler, AZ






--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit
LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list )

So let's say this guy takes the plant through customs and they see it. How
would some luggage inspector know the difference between a complex hybrid
and a species? Chances are that he would be going through an international
airport (probably not Miami). Do all international airports have someone
who can identify plants that well?

Just wondering about this.....I hate it when you make me think!

Good Growing,
Gene






"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Well... I probably should know the answer to this. But I don't. I
have a customer who would like to take a hybrid paph (Maudiae type) back
to his father in Argentina (from the US). I know that paph species are
CITES appendix 1, and I wouldn't even dream of letting him try it.
Hybrids probably shouldn't be appendix I (but maybe are). I don't want
to sell him the plant if he is going to get in trouble for it.

So, if he takes a plant in his carry on luggage, what would the legal
requirements be? Does a single hybrid paph require import/export
paperwork, or can it go as a non-regulated houseplant? If so, it should
be packed bare-root, I presume?

Thoughts?

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit
LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list )

Boy, did you just hit that one [regs need simplifying, but it ain't gonna
happen] on the head! Kenni

"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Thanks Aaron. It is apparent to me that even the professionals who
execute the regulations (customs, etc) can't even agree on an
interpretation. This would (to me) seem to indicate that perhaps the
regulations need some simplifying, but I know that this would never
happen...


Thanks

Rob


Aaron Hicks wrote:

Rob:

Please see:

http://international.fws.gov/pdf/cpc.pdf

Note under "Personal or Household Effects," there are exemptions
for "accompanying the owner and intended for personal use." Also that
"Appendix-I specimens may be exported by a U.S. resident without CITES
documents, provided the foreign country does not require a CITES permit."

Moreover, I seem to recall some wording that knocks orchid species
down a step if they're hybrids: hybrids of Appendix I would then be
treated as Appendix II. However, the CITES website is so poor and the FWS
isn't much better, so I can't provide a citation for this claim as I can
never find what I need at either location.

Bob has this in his paph FAQ, however, at:

www.ladyslipper.com/paphfaq.pdf

On page 24:

"Paphiopedilum and Phragmipedium have been placed on Appendix I
under The Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species
(CITES)... Artificially propagated Paphs and Phrags are considered
Appendix II plants, which can be traded across international boundaries
with appropriate documentation."

While this doesn't say "hybrids," it is implicit with orchids that
artificial hybrids constitute artificial propagation as a function of
their origins and methods of propagation.

Please note- I'm no lawyer, and only a fool would think that on
the basis of my ramblings here.


The email address in the header is bogus. Send no mail there.

-AJHicks
Chandler, AZ






--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit
LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list )

Hi,

Almost all airports in the USA into which international flights arrive
are staffed by APHIS (USDA) officials who, believe it or not, are pretty
damn good at identifying plant species. While I have no idea if this is
true or not in Argentina, it certainly stands to reason that they would
have their own version of PPQ (Plant Protection & Quarantine) in order
to keep unwanted plant species from being introduced into commerce and,
ultimately, into the wild.

Having exported other types of freight to Argentina, I also know that
Customs there can be a complete nightmare. My advice is to make your
buyer aware of the possible risks involved (including the possible risk
of losing the plant), and to have him contact his Embassy for advice
regarding the shipment of his plant. While the Embassy may not have all
the answers, they may be quite helpful. It also doesn't hurt to pack an
extra bottle of wine as a "present" for the Customs official who will be
searching his luggage upon arrival :-)

Rgds,
Scott







In article , says...
Well... I probably should know the answer to this. But I don't. I
have a customer who would like to take a hybrid paph (Maudiae type) back
to his father in Argentina (from the US). I know that paph species are
CITES appendix 1, and I wouldn't even dream of letting him try it.
Hybrids probably shouldn't be appendix I (but maybe are). I don't want
to sell him the plant if he is going to get in trouble for it.

So, if he takes a plant in his carry on luggage, what would the legal
requirements be? Does a single hybrid paph require import/export
paperwork, or can it go as a non-regulated houseplant? If so, it should
be packed bare-root, I presume?

Thoughts?

Rob