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#1
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interesting observation on Honeylocust
I suspect honeylocust comes in male and female individuals. But can a
male tree ever turn into a female tree or vice versa? The observation I recently found was that I had cut an old honeylocust flush to the ground. It was a big tree. And of course suckers followed year after year. Some I undug and transplanted elsewhere. But the tree was thornless when I cut it down. It was about 2 to 3 feet diameter. The surprizing thing to me is that some suckers came up that were thornless but others were thorny. Perhaps thorns are not male and female category. Anyone know what is going on? Archimedes Plutonium www.iw.net/~a_plutonium whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies |
#2
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Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
I suspect honeylocust comes in male and female individuals. But can a male tree ever turn into a female tree or vice versa? The observation I recently found was that I had cut an old honeylocust flush to the ground. It was a big tree. And of course suckers followed year after year. Some I undug and transplanted elsewhere. But the tree was thornless when I cut it down. It was about 2 to 3 feet diameter. The surprizing thing to me is that some suckers came up that were thornless but others were thorny. Perhaps thorns are not male and female category. Anyone know what is going on? Honeylocust, as a member of the genus _Gleditsia_, is usually polygamo-dioecious, which means that trees bear both unisexual and bisexual flowers. So, while trees bear flowers that are mostly of one sex, most will also have bisexual (perfect) flowers. I don't think it is common to have fully male or fully female trees, so if you notice a difference in fruit production from year to year, likely the tree is just adjusting its proportion of unisexual and bisexual flowers. Plants propagated from trunk or root sprouts will be exactly genetically identical to the parent. As for thorniness, it's quite variable from plant to plant. Often you get more thorns on young individuals. AFAIK, thorniness is not related to sex expression. M. Reed. |
#3
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Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:11:46 -0600 Monique Reed wrote:
(snip what I wrote) Honeylocust, as a member of the genus _Gleditsia_, is usually polygamo-dioecious, which means that trees bear both unisexual and bisexual flowers. So, while trees bear flowers that are mostly of one sex, most will also have bisexual (perfect) flowers. I don't think it is common to have fully male or fully female trees, so if you notice a difference in fruit production from year to year, likely the tree is just adjusting its proportion of unisexual and bisexual flowers. Plants propagated from trunk or root sprouts will be exactly genetically identical to the parent. As for thorniness, it's quite variable from plant to plant. Often you get more thorns on young individuals. AFAIK, thorniness is not related to sex expression. M. Reed. Monique, you would not happen to know where most of the USA supply of "locust bean gum" that I see so much of the ingredients in processed food is grown, harvested in the USA? I suppose the demand and supply is of a small demand. I am guessing it is the honeylocust bean that is used. Another question: Oak acorns I believe were used as a substitute for wheat flour to make bread in the old pioneer days. But I wonder if eating oak acorns is unhealthy due to the tannins. Has anyone measured the relative food value of oak acorns to that of wheat? Archimedes Plutonium www.iw.net/~a_plutonium whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies |
#4
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On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:49:48 -0600, Archimedes Plutonium
wrote: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:11:46 -0600 Monique Reed wrote: (snip what I wrote) Honeylocust, as a member of the genus _Gleditsia_, is usually polygamo-dioecious, which means that trees bear both unisexual and bisexual flowers. So, while trees bear flowers that are mostly of one sex, most will also have bisexual (perfect) flowers. I don't think it is common to have fully male or fully female trees, so if you notice a difference in fruit production from year to year, likely the tree is just adjusting its proportion of unisexual and bisexual flowers. Plants propagated from trunk or root sprouts will be exactly genetically identical to the parent. As for thorniness, it's quite variable from plant to plant. Often you get more thorns on young individuals. AFAIK, thorniness is not related to sex expression. M. Reed. Monique, you would not happen to know where most of the USA supply of "locust bean gum" that I see so much of the ingredients in processed food is grown, harvested in the USA? I suppose the demand and supply is of a small demand. I am guessing it is the honeylocust bean that is used. No, commercial locust bean gum comes from carob (Ceratonia siliqua). Honey locust pods are edible, but to my knowledge are not used commercially, as carob is of higher quality and long cultivated for this and other purposes. Another question: Oak acorns I believe were used as a substitute for wheat flour to make bread in the old pioneer days. But I wonder if eating oak acorns is unhealthy due to the tannins. Has anyone measured the relative food value of oak acorns to that of wheat? Lots of people. Pioneers learned to prepare acorns from the Indians, who had lived on acorns for thousands of years. Probably the greatest authority on the subject of acorns as food is Julia Parker; see Ortiz and Parker, "It Will Live Forever: Traditional Yosemite Indian Acorn Preparation" (Heyday Books). Acorns from low-tannin species of oak are more palatable, but all acorns need to be leached to extract tannins. Acorns are rich and nutritious food, even if impressively bland; acorn flour runs about 500 calories/100 grams, largely carbohydrate and (mostly unsaturated) fat but also some protein (incomplete: it's short on tryptophan, a common fault of plant protein sources). -- Chris Green |
#5
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Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:24:44 GMT Christopher Green wrote:
(big snip) No, commercial locust bean gum comes from carob (Ceratonia siliqua). Honey locust pods are edible, but to my knowledge are not used commercially, as carob is of higher quality and long cultivated for this and other purposes. I could have sworn for sure that it was Locust trees that provided the commercial bean gum used for food additive. That would be an embarrassing moment if I turned up at a Farm Mill with a truckload of honeylocust beans to sell into the Commodities Market. Another question: Oak acorns I believe were used as a substitute for wheat flour to make bread in the old pioneer days. But I wonder if eating oak acorns is unhealthy due to the tannins. Has anyone measured the relative food value of oak acorns to that of wheat? Lots of people. Pioneers learned to prepare acorns from the Indians, who had lived on acorns for thousands of years. Probably the greatest authority on the subject of acorns as food is Julia Parker; see Ortiz and Parker, "It Will Live Forever: Traditional Yosemite Indian Acorn Preparation" (Heyday Books). Acorns from low-tannin species of oak are more palatable, but all acorns need to be leached to extract tannins. Acorns are rich and nutritious food, even if impressively bland; acorn flour runs about 500 calories/100 grams, largely carbohydrate and (mostly unsaturated) fat but also some protein (incomplete: it's short on tryptophan, a common fault of plant protein sources). Curious question. Does wheat lack tryptophan? Does honeylocust beans possess tryptophan? In a sense, modern society is based on wheat, potatoes, rice, corn et al. But I wonder if oak acorns and honeylocust can become one of the basis points. Some of the Indians relyed heavily on oak acorns but I wonder if acorns can become what wheat has become. Just read in the news today about an estimate that 10,000 species are nearing extinction due to human overpopulation coupled with global warming. Not only is global warming accelerating but I would then guess that species extinctions are accelerating. One of the species mentioned on the list was "fir trees". I wonder if oak trees due to diseases is on that list. Archimedes Plutonium www.iw.net/~a_plutonium whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies |
#6
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Archimedes Plutonium wrote in message ...
Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:24:44 GMT Christopher Green wrote: (big snip) No, commercial locust bean gum comes from carob (Ceratonia siliqua). Honey locust pods are edible, but to my knowledge are not used commercially, as carob is of higher quality and long cultivated for this and other purposes. I could have sworn for sure that it was Locust trees that provided the commercial bean gum used for food additive. That would be an embarrassing moment if I turned up at a Farm Mill with a truckload of honeylocust beans to sell into the Commodities Market. Locust is also another name for the carob tree. Carob is a tree of ancient domestication, so it goes by several names. Another question: Oak acorns I believe were used as a substitute for wheat flour to make bread in the old pioneer days. But I wonder if eating oak acorns is unhealthy due to the tannins. Has anyone measured the relative food value of oak acorns to that of wheat? Lots of people. Pioneers learned to prepare acorns from the Indians, who had lived on acorns for thousands of years. Probably the greatest authority on the subject of acorns as food is Julia Parker; see Ortiz and Parker, "It Will Live Forever: Traditional Yosemite Indian Acorn Preparation" (Heyday Books). Acorns from low-tannin species of oak are more palatable, but all acorns need to be leached to extract tannins. Acorns are rich and nutritious food, even if impressively bland; acorn flour runs about 500 calories/100 grams, largely carbohydrate and (mostly unsaturated) fat but also some protein (incomplete: it's short on tryptophan, a common fault of plant protein sources). Curious question. Does wheat lack tryptophan? Does honeylocust beans possess tryptophan? Most plant protein sources are lacking in lysine, tryptophan, or both. Wheat is especially lacking in lysine. Mixing plant protein sources, particularly cereal grains and legumes, can compensate for the deficiency. Thus the agricultural tribes of the Southwest and Mexico did very well indeed on corn (maize) and beans, supplemented with meat following a successful hunt (or battle...). Livestock are occasionally allowed to graze honeylocust, which is palatable to them. Because of its high tannin content, standard advice is to limit livestock consumption of honeylocust or carob to no more than 10% of total forage. Carob, to which honeylocust isn't closely enough related to extrapolate, has a very high sugar content (to 72%) and some protein (5% or so). Acorn woodpeckers have an adaptation that allows them to defeat the tannins and increase the protein yield of acorns: they harvest and store acorns, which promptly become colonized by beetle grubs. Then they eat the grubs. I don't think this approach to enhancing the food value of acorns would be marketable. In a sense, modern society is based on wheat, potatoes, rice, corn et al. But I wonder if oak acorns and honeylocust can become one of the basis points. Some of the Indians relyed heavily on oak acorns but I wonder if acorns can become what wheat has become. Not at all likely. The biggest problems would be yield and processing: you can grow vastly more of any of the cereal grains on the same acreage, and none of these need extensive processing to make them nonpoisonous. Then there's the mouth appeal, or lack thereof, of acorns. If you got the tannins extracted properly, so they're not bitter, what you're left with is the quintessence of bland. Oaks are just productive enough to sustain a hunter-gatherer society and just palatable enough to be an acceptable alternative to starvation. They can't be grown or processed economically in large enough quantities to be a staple in a society in which agriculture is established and in which land and labor have much value. Just read in the news today about an estimate that 10,000 species are nearing extinction due to human overpopulation coupled with global warming. Not only is global warming accelerating but I would then guess that species extinctions are accelerating. One of the species mentioned on the list was "fir trees". I wonder if oak trees due to diseases is on that list. Interesting that you should mention fir. Fir bark is also edible and has been served up as an alternative to starvation in famine conditions in various societies. -- Chris Green |
#7
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Archimedes Plutonium wrote in
: I suspect honeylocust comes in male and female individuals. But can a male tree ever turn into a female tree or vice versa? The observation I recently found was that I had cut an old honeylocust flush to the ground. It was a big tree. And of course suckers followed year after year. Some I undug and transplanted elsewhere. But the tree was thornless when I cut it down. It was about 2 to 3 feet diameter. The surprizing thing to me is that some suckers came up that were thornless but others were thorny. Perhaps thorns are not male and female category. Anyone know what is going on? The honey locust varieties that are thornless do not reliably reproduce from seed, and do not take well from cuttings. Nurseries graft named varieties onto seedlings, so suckers from below the graft line will have the characters of the seedling. Your fancy roses, most fruit trees, etc. will do the same. Sean |
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