On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:35:32 CST, Derek Broughton
wrote:

Since I don't believe that you can get stratification in winter in a 15"
deep pond, it makes no difference (to temperature) whether a bubbler is
used or not. The bubbler exists just to keep a hole open, and . The
concept of "hyper chilling" makes no sense to me. Goldfish will survive
water right down to the freezing point (with the odd claim that they
actually survived freezing - but I think there'd be lab experiments to show
that if if really could happen). You can't make a pond get colder than
that without salting it (noticeably more than the prophylactic salting many
use), and a bubbler would actually make it even _less_ likely (try super
cooling water at home - you can do it, but stirring it will make it freeze
immediately).

....stirring make it freeze immediately....

That goes against the principal that moving water doesn't freeze as fast as
still water, doesn't it? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

"~ jan" wrote:

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:35:32 CST, Derek Broughton
wrote:

Since I don't believe that you can get stratification in winter in a 15"
deep pond, it makes no difference (to temperature) whether a bubbler is
used or not. The bubbler exists just to keep a hole open, and . The
concept of "hyper chilling" makes no sense to me. Goldfish will survive
water right down to the freezing point (with the odd claim that they
actually survived freezing - but I think there'd be lab experiments to show
that if if really could happen). You can't make a pond get colder than
that without salting it (noticeably more than the prophylactic salting many
use), and a bubbler would actually make it even _less_ likely (try super
cooling water at home - you can do it, but stirring it will make it freeze
immediately).

....stirring make it freeze immediately....

That goes against the principal that moving water doesn't freeze as fast as
still water, doesn't it? ~ jan

And hot water freezes faster than cold.

Oh, wait, sorry, wrong newsgroup. That's rec.physics.

San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Koi, Goldfish, and RES named Colombo.

~ jan wrote:

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:35:32 CST, Derek Broughton
wrote:


....stirring make it freeze immediately....

That goes against the principal that moving water doesn't freeze as fast
as still water, doesn't it? ~ jan

Still water will likely locally reach freezing point sooner than moving
water, but I was talking about supercooling, which is what "hyperchilling"
sounds like. If you have pure water (the purer the better) in a glass in
the freezer, you can probably get it to a few degrees below freezing - as
soon as you disturb it, or drop in a single grain of salt it will freeze
solid. Another simple example is to put a bottle of beer in a freezer.
You can take it out, see that it's still liquid, but the moment you pop the
cap it will freeze - it starts to crystallize around the released bubbles
of CO2.

Also, note that the common trick of preventing water from freezing in pipes
by leaving a faucet dripping has nothing to do with moving water not
freezing as fast as still water. That just involves bringing water from a
supply system at 10C fast enough that it never has time to freeze.

I just don't buy the idea that a goldfish can be "hyperchilled". Either
that means the water was sub-freezing - which shouldn't be possible in a
pond - or it means that some point above freezing is too cold for them, and
I have ample evidence that they survive well down to 0C (though I have,
from time to time, found little frozen bodies embedded in the ice - they
don't take that well!).
--
derek

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:26:52 CST, Derek Broughton
wrote:

That goes against the principal that moving water doesn't freeze as fast
as still water, doesn't it? ~ jan

Still water will likely locally reach freezing point sooner than moving
water, but I was talking about supercooling, which is what "hyperchilling"
sounds like. If you have pure water (the purer the better) in a glass in
the freezer, you can probably get it to a few degrees below freezing - as
soon as you disturb it, or drop in a single grain of salt it will freeze
solid. Another simple example is to put a bottle of beer in a freezer.
You can take it out, see that it's still liquid, but the moment you pop the
cap it will freeze - it starts to crystallize around the released bubbles
of CO2.

Also, note that the common trick of preventing water from freezing in pipes
by leaving a faucet dripping has nothing to do with moving water not
freezing as fast as still water. That just involves bringing water from a
supply system at 10C fast enough that it never has time to freeze.

I just don't buy the idea that a goldfish can be "hyperchilled". Either
that means the water was sub-freezing - which shouldn't be possible in a
pond - or it means that some point above freezing is too cold for them, and
I have ample evidence that they survive well down to 0C (though I have,
from time to time, found little frozen bodies embedded in the ice - they
don't take that well!).

Check my reasoning.... So the reason slow flow movement in a pond keeps an
area liquid is, 1) because it isn't pure, and 2) it is keeping the temp
mixed? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

~ jan wrote:

Check my reasoning.... So the reason slow flow movement in a pond keeps an
area liquid is, 1) because it isn't pure,

No. If the water is actually below 0C, it's going to freeze. Whether or not
it's moving will make no difference.

and 2) it is keeping the temp mixed?

Pretty much - the water in contact with the ground at the bottom of the pond
is going to be warmest (if it gets cold enough that the frost reaches that
far, it will _still_ be warmest, because it's going to be darn cold at the
surface!), so moving it is essentially speeding up the transfer of heat
from the ground throughout the pond. It's also speeding up the transfer of
heat from the water to the air - but if your pond is mostly frozen, that
heat transfer will be much slower than the transfer from the ground.

--
derek

In the past it seemed the fish would just stop eating and being active. This
year, I had ice on top of the pond a day ago, but today they were wanting to
be fed again!

I know the water temp has to be way below 55, but these guys still seem like
they want food.


--
Gareee
(Gary Tabar Jr.)

"Gareee©" wrote in message
...
In the past it seemed the fish would just stop eating and being active.
This year, I had ice on top of the pond a day ago, but today they were
wanting to be fed again!

I know the water temp has to be way below 55, but these guys still seem
like they want food.
=========================
As long as my fish show interest, I'll be feeding them from now on. The koi
are not interested in food anymore but the GF sure are.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

In article ,
"Gareee©" wrote:

In the past it seemed the fish would just stop eating and being active. This
year, I had ice on top of the pond a day ago, but today they were wanting to
be fed again!

I know the water temp has to be way below 55, but these guys still seem like
they want food.

Same here!, but no ice.

--
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