Question:

I have a 6 foot by 2 foot by 2 foot pond that was formerly a cattle trough.
It has a liner, fountain, and is buried approximately 20 inches in the
ground. I need advice on the best way to help my goldfish and koi survive
the harsh Chicago winters.

Thanks in advance

"AL Z" wrote in message
news:VKKdneizbeOCDTfbnZ2dnUVZ_jWdnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
Question:

I have a 6 foot by 2 foot by 2 foot pond that was formerly a cattle
trough. It has a liner, fountain, and is buried approximately 20 inches in
the ground. I need advice on the best way to help my goldfish and koi
survive the harsh Chicago winters.

Thanks in advance
I really don't think that you could keep the fish in a small shallow tank
like that in your area. Many of the people, that I know of, that live up
in the upper midwest, bring their koi into the house, and keep them in their
isolation tank. That tank is only about 150 gallons, and you will find that
the koi outgrow it very fast. A rule of rec.ponds for pond volume has been
stated 1000 gallons for the first koi and 200 gallons for each additional
koi. Others have different rules. Some of the people that are trying to
raise the big show koi say 1000 gallons per koi, and refuse to think that
less then 500 per koi can be managed. Gold fish on the other hand, need
about 20 gallons per goldfish, so you could have up to about 6 or 7
goldfish. You will need to control the population, as goldfish will
overpopulate.

If the pond were bigger and deeper, then the use of an ice melter, air, or
other methods of keeping a hole in the water would work. The pond needs to
go a foot or more below the frost depth to have some of the ground heat to
maintain a liquid level under the ice. There must be a hole in the ice to
allow gas exchange.

drop in a 300W heater
(http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/...etail/iid/9082)

you will need a bucket filter
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/c...re.html#BUCKET

and an air pump with a couple of air stones. make sure this both high
enough that water will never get into the hose AND that it is covered
up to keep water and snow out.

Then drape the whole thing with plastic, like a hoop house or an A
frame so that there is a couple feet above the water at the highest
point. this will keep in the heat.

Most of use up in the frozen tundra keep out fish out all year but we
do take measures to protect them, keep a hole open, AND something to
extend the season a bit longer in fall, bring the temp up sooner in
spring. my water gets below 50oF only 1 month of the year, the rest
of the time I feed them a couple times a week. Ingrid

On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:03:03 CST, "AL Z" wrote:
I have a 6 foot by 2 foot by 2 foot pond that was formerly a cattle trough.
It has a liner, fountain, and is buried approximately 20 inches in the
ground. I need advice on the best way to help my goldfish and koi survive
the harsh Chicago winters.

I'm thinking you're going to want to bring them indoors.

I don't know what the frost line is in Chicago, but in Minnesota it's
about 4 feet. My pond is about 1700 gallons and it's deepest point is
32 inches.It's built into a hill so half of it is exposed. I get
almost a foot of ice before the snow starts providing some insulation.
I use a 1200 watt trough heater to keep a one-foot tunnel open for the
air exchange. I spend about $100 a year to power it to keep my $0.25
feeders alive. I've had the current batch for 5 years and they're
about 8 inches long.

The heater gets deployed in late October and keeps chugging away until
late April or early May. One year the heater sank, the hole froze
over and everybody died. I tried bringing them inside the next year,
but then my fish season is only June to September and that doesn't
make sense. I suspect they are happier being comatose half the year
rather than being cooped up in an aquarium. After all, the fishing is
pretty good in Minnesota.

With 20 inches and 150 gallons you don't have much room to work with.
I don't think a heater will help. Time to plan for a bigger pond.

dss

On Jul 29, 5:33 pm, dss wrote:
I'm thinking you're going to want to bring them indoors.

I don't know what the frost line is in Chicago, but in Minnesota it's
about 4 feet. My pond is about 1700 gallons and it's deepest point is
32 inches.It's built into a hill so half of it is exposed. I get
almost a foot of ice before the snow starts providing some insulation.
I use a 1200 watt trough heater to keep a one-foot tunnel open for the
air exchange. I spend about $100 a year to power it to keep my $0.25
feeders alive. I've had the current batch for 5 years and they're
about 8 inches long.

The heater gets deployed in late October and keeps chugging away until
late April or early May. One year the heater sank, the hole froze
over and everybody died. I tried bringing them inside the next year,
but then my fish season is only June to September and that doesn't
make sense. I suspect they are happier being comatose half the year
rather than being cooped up in an aquarium. After all, the fishing is
pretty good in Minnesota.

With 20 inches and 150 gallons you don't have much room to work with.
I don't think a heater will help. Time to plan for a bigger pond.

dss

I usuallu just use a bottom filter that jets water upward in winter!
I live in Denver. Was cold enough to kill my zone 5 plants the last
two winters! They say such keeps there from being an insulating
layers of warm water in the bottom of the pond! Would like the Myth
Busters to test out that theory Since warm water would rise! Anyway,
I mix the water all winter! It keeps a hole over the filter jetting
water up even during the coldest spells! Used a heater one year. It
sprung some kind of leak and leaked into the pond! Don't trust them!

On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 04:55:14 CST, chatnoir
wrote:

I usuallu just use a bottom filter that jets water upward in winter!
I live in Denver. Was cold enough to kill my zone 5 plants the last
two winters! They say such keeps there from being an insulating
layers of warm water in the bottom of the pond! Would like the Myth
Busters to test out that theory Since warm water would rise!

http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_water.htm

So would water near freezing temperatures, leaving a layer of water
close to 4C (39F), it being more dense.

Regards,

Hal

On Jul 30, 7:24 am, Hal wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 04:55:14 CST, chatnoir

wrote:
I usuallu just use a bottom filter that jets water upward in winter!
I live in Denver. Was cold enough to kill my zone 5 plants the last
two winters! They say such keeps there from being an insulating
layers of warm water in the bottom of the pond! Would like the Myth
Busters to test out that theory Since warm water would rise!

http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_water.htm

So would water near freezing temperatures, leaving a layer of water
close to 4C (39F), it being more dense.

Regards,

Hal

So, you have actually measured this temperature in the bottom of your
pond in winter? What was its thickness?

On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:24:38 CST, chatnoir
wrote:

http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_water.htm

So would water near freezing temperatures, leaving a layer of water
close to 4C (39F), it being more dense.

Regards,

Hal

So, you have actually measured this temperature in the bottom of your
pond in winter? What was its thickness?

Actually yes!
I don't have a problem in winter so I never tried to measure the
thickness of the layer, but I've spent enough time swimming I know
layers are often found in bodies of water not disturbed by pumps, and
sometime even in oceans where I dived.

However, my pond 82.8F degrees this morning. I have a thermometer
pick up on the bottom with a remote sending device to a receiver on my
desk. The actual thickness of the layer is most likely full depth
today, but if I wanted to know I could go out and raise the sensor and
take readings.

Regards,

Hal

when the ground is not frozen, then the water soaks up ground heat all
winter and jetting thaws top. moving water is harder to freeze than
still water. covering the pond keeps the warm water that wants to
evaporate in the pond and keeps the pond much warmer. if I JUST kept
my pond covered and a little jet going the water would not freeze at
all. Ingrid


On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 04:55:14 CST, chatnoir
They say such keeps there from being an insulating
layers of warm water in the bottom of the pond! Would like the Myth
Busters to test out that theory Since warm water would rise! Anyway,
I mix the water all winter! It keeps a hole over the filter jetting
water up even during the coldest spells! Used a heater one year. It
sprung some kind of leak and leaked into the pond! Don't trust them!

On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:03:03 CST, "AL Z" wrote:

Question:

I have a 6 foot by 2 foot by 2 foot pond that was formerly a cattle trough.
It has a liner, fountain, and is buried approximately 20 inches in the
ground. I need advice on the best way to help my goldfish and koi survive
the harsh Chicago winters.

Thanks in advance

This is a stock tank, I think it calls for a "stock tank heater". ;-) After
all, cows & horses have to have liquid water even in Chicago. Course you
saw the power bill mentioned. So covering it would really help. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

but it is buried in the earth, so rather than a 1500 watt heater, a
300-500 watt heater and plastic over the top is all that is needed.
besides, those stock tank heaters are expensive and dont last very
long. titanium heaters last nearly forever. Ingrid

On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 07:15:14 CST, ~ jan wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:03:03 CST, "AL Z" wrote:

Question:

I have a 6 foot by 2 foot by 2 foot pond that was formerly a cattle trough.
It has a liner, fountain, and is buried approximately 20 inches in the
ground. I need advice on the best way to help my goldfish and koi survive
the harsh Chicago winters.

Thanks in advance

This is a stock tank, I think it calls for a "stock tank heater". ;-) After
all, cows & horses have to have liquid water even in Chicago. Course you
saw the power bill mentioned. So covering it would really help. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 18:08:16 CST, wrote:

but it is buried in the earth, so rather than a 1500 watt heater, a
300-500 watt heater and plastic over the top is all that is needed.
besides, those stock tank heaters are expensive and dont last very
long. titanium heaters last nearly forever. Ingrid

I agree, except on the life of a stock tank heater. Mine, a 1000 watt, has
been working for 13 years now. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

The problem with a trough heater is that it will eventually fail. My
first one lasted five years. It was a 10 inch disk that looked like an
anti-tank mine. At 1200 watts it kept a one foot wide tunnel open to
the air. The depth of the ice depends on how much snow we get in
November. More snow means more insulation and less ice so a foot or so
of foam might work.

After five years the heater became waterlogged and wouldn't float
anymore. Being the inventive fellow I am I propped it up on concrete
blocks. But this didn't allow it to follow the level of the pond and
when it dropped the heater was exposed to the air and burned out. End
of fish.

With temps to -30F I prefer 1200 watts, but you might get by with
less. Your pond is so small that you could buy a couple of 4 by 8
sheets of foam, glue them together, drill a hole (6"?) or holes to
allow air exchange and this would give you a jump start on the
insulation provided by snow. My heater doesn't run that much because
we usually get a couple feet of snow early in the season and that's
great insulation.

Still, the volume of your pond doesn't give you much flexibility on O2
content, so I'd be concerned if the fish are valuable.

My city floats firehose sized pumps in some of the lakes and runs them
all winter to prevent a fish kill.

Good luck. Let us know what you end up doing and how it turns out.

dss