I think experience and design are more important to maintenance than
cost. Especially if the ponder is doing the installation labor. Jim
built our ponds in several stages. He learned a lot from the group
and from the web and from the mistakes he made when he began.

For instance, if he had built the pond along the lines of his first
ideas, we would have lava rock filters with blue ac filter
prefilters. He would have to clean them all the time. As it is, the
slow-flow berm ponds catch the muck and need draining once a year. It
is cheaper to have a slow-flow pond with no prefilter than to change
out ac filters!

Time needed for maintenance is different from time spent on the pond.
Jim is forever looking to see how this or that is growing and he is
always coming up with something or other to change. I call that
puttering rather than maintenance.

Phyllis

"Phyllis and Jim" wrote in message
...
I think experience and design are more important to maintenance than
cost. Especially if the ponder is doing the installation labor. Jim
built our ponds in several stages. He learned a lot from the group
and from the web and from the mistakes he made when he began.

Oh believe me, we learned a lot also. The original pond info we got back in
1996 never mentioned berms caving in like ours did, necessitating a major
fixing of the berms on both ponds. You remember me mentioning that about 2
years back. We had to pull the liners, reshape the sides and make reinforced
concrete berms with rebar going deep into the earth. First we had to make
the forms. Expensive and time consuming. Meanwhile the koi were in smaller
protected kiddy pools that needed constant care and partial water changes.
Many of us made mistakes because no one points out all the problems and
things that can go wrong.

For instance, if he had built the pond along the lines of his first
ideas, we would have lava rock filters with blue ac filter
prefilters. He would have to clean them all the time. As it is, the
slow-flow berm ponds catch the muck and need draining once a year. It
is cheaper to have a slow-flow pond with no prefilter than to change
out ac filters!

And for that you need the space and know-how how to built it. After all
these years I never saw or heard of a "slow-flow through berm pond." I
shudder to think what it would cost to hire someone to add these to both
ponds and in such a way they can be netted.

Time needed for maintenance is different from time spent on the pond.
Jim is forever looking to see how this or that is growing and he is
always coming up with something or other to change. I call that
puttering rather than maintenance.

A lot more information was available when you did your pond than when we put
these in in 1996 and 97. I never dreamed there would be so much maintenance
involved. Then, once the koi started to breed the maintenance increased.
There is no other way to remove fry than do a draindown and net them out. A
dirty smelly all day job as I mentioned before. In fact it usually takes us
an entire weekend or longer. It also means keeping "holding pools" ready for
use and cycling extra filters beforehand. That last time I slipped on the
slimy liner I thought my shoulder was broken. I could hardly use my arm for
days.

If we were wealthy we'd have a local pond service/builder come in and
replace the filters with no-maintenance filters and pumps plus one of those
slow-flow-through-plant-filters you mentioned (one pond already has one but
it runs through a tank). We'd hire them to do the drain downs and partial
water changes. But now with my husband about to retire in a few months,
that just isn't feasible.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

well, besides enjoying my pond , I am a Sushi fanatic (does that make me
a cannibal ? *smile*)....guess that's one way to get rid of the fish.

"Jerseyj" wrote in message
...
well, besides enjoying my pond , I am a Sushi fanatic (does that make me
a cannibal ? *smile*)....guess that's one way to get rid of the fish.

==============================
You eat your koi? :-O
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

May your break from ponds be as restful as your initial ponding seems
to have been.

Phyllis

"Phyllis and Jim" wrote in message
...
May your break from ponds be as restful as your initial ponding seems
to have been.

Phyllis
===========================
Maybe that's what we need. A "break" after all these years. A vacation from
ponding. There were many enjoyable moments..... :-)
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:28:36 CST, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

Many of us made mistakes because no one points out all the problems and
things that can go wrong.

Since every pond, ponder, materials, soil are different, I don't think
there is a book out there that could cover it all. Especially not in the
mid-90's. Even if you had known then what you know now, wouldn't you have
still dug the ponds?

I shudder to think what it would cost to hire someone to add these to both
ponds and in such a way they can be netted.

I don't think Phyllis was even suggesting this. While you're mentioning all
the cons of ponding, a few of us are pointing out the pros, and that it can
be done low maintenance and low cost. After all, you've mentioned you're
ready to pull off the nets, sell the fish, and go the lazy ponder way that
Kathy enjoys. ;-) No one here is trying to sway you not to.

I never dreamed there would be so much maintenance
involved. Then, once the koi started to breed the maintenance increased.
There is no other way to remove fry than do a draindown and net them out. A
dirty smelly all day job as I mentioned before.

And I don't think anyone here is trying to talk you out of retiring from
these chores. They're just stating their experiences. I know I dug my first
pond in 1995, a year earlier than yourself and haven't had a 5th of the
problems you've had. So everyone/pond and experiences thereof, are often
quite different. ~ jan

------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

natural birth control = orfes

wrote:

natural birth control = orfes


Can't get orfes in California

San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Koi, Goldfish, and RES named Colombo.

"Joe" wrote in message
...



wrote:

natural birth control = orfes


Can't get orfes in California

=========================
I haven't seen them here in years. They may be illegal here. I tried rosy
reds but they don't survive for some reason. They disappear. They may be
small enough for the tiny snakes that go through the nets to pick off. But
then these baby predators should be picking off the koi and GF fry as
well..........
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:28:36 CST, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

Many of us made mistakes because no one points out all the problems and
things that can go wrong.

Since every pond, ponder, materials, soil are different, I don't think
there is a book out there that could cover it all. Especially not in the
mid-90's. Even if you had known then what you know now, wouldn't you have
still dug the ponds?

Most likely I would have. But I would have designed them to be more natural
and have never bought fish for them. The fish are the main attraction for
the snakes and fish eating predators. The fish are what's causing most of
the work. And their rate of reproduction is phenomenal. I tried adding
rosy reds to consume some of the eggs and fry, but they don't survive for
some reason.

I shudder to think what it would cost to hire someone to add these to both
ponds and in such a way they can be netted.

I don't think Phyllis was even suggesting this. While you're mentioning
all
the cons of ponding, a few of us are pointing out the pros, and that it
can
be done low maintenance and low cost.

Yes, it can...... depending where you live and what you want to keep in your
pond.

After all, you've mentioned you're
ready to pull off the nets, sell the fish, and go the lazy ponder way that
Kathy enjoys. ;-) No one here is trying to sway you not to.

I think we all concentrate on the pros Jan, and forget that all coins have a
flip side. I'm not crazy about these nets either. They're a real PIA but
the only thing that worked. They're in the way of maintenance and of course
not natural looking or attractive although fine and black.

I never dreamed there would be so much maintenance
involved. Then, once the koi started to breed the maintenance increased.
There is no other way to remove fry than do a draindown and net them out.
A
dirty smelly all day job as I mentioned before.

And I don't think anyone here is trying to talk you out of retiring from
these chores. They're just stating their experiences. I know I dug my
first
pond in 1995, a year earlier than yourself and haven't had a 5th of the
problems you've had. So everyone/pond and experiences thereof, are often
quite different. ~ jan

Jan, the first 150g kitty-pool pond was put in in May or June of 1995, as
per the Tetra booklet that was all I could find locally. I didn't have a PC
back then. The library here had nothing on liner ponds. Ponds were not
that popular or common at the time either. No one had liner ponds or
anything other than farm stock ponds that I knew. I went by those early
books that expounded on the pros and minimized the cons if they mentioned
them at all. Finding any good info was hard.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö