My pond pH is getting really high and I don't know why or what to do
about it.

Here are the vital statistics:
Water coming out of the tap pH 8.3
pH range during the day:
8.8 early this AM
9.3 late afternoon.
KH and GH around 150 ppm
NH3 and nitrite zero, thank goodness
Water temp around 60.

Currently using CaCl2 to keep GH up (water soft) and baking soda for
KH.

I know that pH values vary during the day due to photosynthesis. I've
removed all submerged plants, vacuumed bottom to get up fallen algae.
skim algae off top and manually remove excess string algae, and water
goes through UV light to remove soluble algae.

I recently did a water change of about 33%. What now? Do I keep
doing water changes? If, afterwards, I add baking soda back again to
keep KH up, will I be back where I started?

At what pH level do I have to remove fish due to danger?

Thanks.

________________
Joan G.Wikler
)

9.3 is quite high. You should try to keep it around 8.5, highest.
Baking soda stops dissolving in that range, so that shouldn't be
kicking it up over 9. Have you put any objects in the pond recently?
Any cement blocks or something like that? That will raise your PH
through the roof.

If your PH stays up in the 9s or higher, you'll run into Alkalosis,
which can cause big losses. You'll notice that the fish get
excessively slimy and are gasping at the surface if that happens, and
you won't have much time to get things right, starting with a major
water change.

If it were me, I'd avoid the CACL2 and baking soda at least until you
get this worked out. It will only make the problem harder to diagnose.
The PH is likely to be a much worse problem for your fish than GH/KH
levels.

Dave

I would love to keep it around 8.5 but I don't seem to be able to do
so. I can't figure out where the excess base is coming from. I
haven't added any cement blocks or anything like that. A long time
ago I added some CaCO3 and some dolomite lime, but the pH never seemed
to increase. Suddently this spring it started going through the roof.
This was before I added the CaCl2 or the BS. My GH was very low, and
my kH around 100. I did a major water change, which dropped the kH
down to about 50. At that time, I was still having high pH values in
the late afternoon--around 9.2, But the pH values in the morning was
down around 8.1, so I was getting huge diurnal pH swings. I was
worried about the effect of the wide swings on the fish. I know that
calcium is supposed to precipitate the excess carbonate out and was
hoping that would dampen the afternoon pH rises.. I also know that
excess photosynthesis will raise the PM pH. So that is why I was
doing what I was doing and trying to keep the algae under control. I
can do a water change, but I'm afraid I'll be right back there where I
started unless I let the KH get dangerously low. I am worried about
alkalosis, but I am also afraid of setting them up for a pH crash
overnight or dangerously high pH swings.

Joan

9.3 is quite high. You should try to keep it around 8.5, highest.
Baking soda stops dissolving in that range, so that shouldn't be
kicking it up over 9. Have you put any objects in the pond recently?
Any cement blocks or something like that? That will raise your PH
through the roof.

If your PH stays up in the 9s or higher, you'll run into Alkalosis,
which can cause big losses. You'll notice that the fish get
excessively slimy and are gasping at the surface if that happens, and
you won't have much time to get things right, starting with a major
water change.

If it were me, I'd avoid the CACL2 and baking soda at least until you
get this worked out. It will only make the problem harder to diagnose.
The PH is likely to be a much worse problem for your fish than GH/KH
levels.

Dave

On Sat, 24 May 2008 14:23:58 EDT, Chris Hogg wrote:

Newbie here, requesting information. Sorry I can't help with problem,
but for my education, what are KH and GH? pH, NH3 and nitrites I know
about from chemistry, but I've not come across the other two.

KH = buffering capacity, minimum is around 80. GH is hardness/softness.

Joan, how old is your test and what kind are you using? Strips, drops,
pills?

I had this problem with my lily pond that is surrounded with cement brick
on the edges even though they were treated many times with muratic acid.
About the 3rd year of age of the lily pond I went thru the KHA classes.
With their suggestions this is what I did. I added 4 lbs of baking
soda/1,000 gallons. Then I did daily water changes of 10-15%. There was
enough baking soda to keep the KH up thru many water changes. Seems I only
had to do about 5 and the pH came down to 8.3 and stayed, can't remember
what my KH was, but it was definitely good enough I didn't have to worry
about KH.

Course the one difference in my case is the pH out of the tap here is
around 7.2-7.5. So you may have to do more water changes than I. As long as
the pH is above 8.5 you can add lots of baking soda. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

Joan, how old is your test and what kind are you using? Strips, drops,
pills?

I'm testing pH using the EcoPal pH meter. I bought it a few weeks ago
and calibrated it using their recommended control solution. I'm
testing KH and GH using Aquarium Pharmaceuticals liquid (color) tests.
The KH test is probably about 2 years old. The GH test is a little
older, maybe 3 or 4. I have a new test ordered, since the old one
might be out of date.

I had this problem with my lily pond that is surrounded with cement brick
on the edges even though they were treated many times with muratic acid.
About the 3rd year of age of the lily pond I went thru the KHA classes.
With their suggestions this is what I did. I added 4 lbs of baking
soda/1,000 gallons. Then I did daily water changes of 10-15%. There was
enough baking soda to keep the KH up thru many water changes. Seems I only
had to do about 5 and the pH came down to 8.3 and stayed, can't remember
what my KH was, but it was definitely good enough I didn't have to worry
about KH.

Oh good. Glad to know that. I can't imagine what is driving my pH up
so high. I'll work on the water changes.

Course the one difference in my case is the pH out of the tap here is
around 7.2-7.5. So you may have to do more water changes than I. As long as
the pH is above 8.5 you can add lots of baking soda. ~ jan

Um....did you mean as long as the pH is below 8.5?

Thanks for the response. I'm so glad to know your situation settled
down. My pond is about 3 years old this year too. Maybe it's the
"terrible threes"?

Joan

On Sat, 24 May 2008 19:26:52 EDT, Joan wrote:

Course the one difference in my case is the pH out of the tap here is
around 7.2-7.5. So you may have to do more water changes than I. As long as
the pH is above 8.5 you can add lots of baking soda. ~ jan

Um....did you mean as long as the pH is below 8.5?

No, I meant above. As baking soda will only bring the pH to about 8.3-8.4,
it isn't going to drive it higher if you add a bunch at higher pH levels,
it will just improve the buffering.

Thanks for the response. I'm so glad to know your situation settled
down. My pond is about 3 years old this year too. Maybe it's the
"terrible threes"? Joan

Could be. How are your plants doing? That's how I can tell when my pH is
too high, the plant growth slows way down. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

On Sat, 24 May 2008 14:23:58 EDT, Chris Hogg wrote:

Newbie here, requesting information. Sorry I can't help with problem,
but for my education, what are KH and GH? pH, NH3 and nitrites I know
about from chemistry, but I've not come across the other two.

Here's a good place to catch up.
http://koiclubsandiego.org/library/preface.php
--
Hal Middle Georgia, Zone 8
http://tinyurl.com/2fxzcb

As long as
the pH is above 8.5 you can add lots of baking soda. ~ jan

Um....did you mean as long as the pH is below 8.5?

No, I meant above. As baking soda will only bring the pH to about 8.3-8.4,
it isn't going to drive it higher if you add a bunch at higher pH levels,
it will just improve the buffering.

So...not to be dumb but...do you mean you can't add baking soda when
the pH is below 8,5? Or just that you have to add it slowly so you
don't change the pH too fast?

Thanks for the response. I'm so glad to know your situation settled
down. My pond is about 3 years old this year too. Maybe it's the
"terrible threes"? Joan

Could be. How are your plants doing? That's how I can tell when my pH is
too high, the plant growth slows way down. ~ jan

Plants are doing well. The algae's doing great! :-P What do you
think about those peat granules that they sell for ponds? They're
supposed to tint the water slightly and gradually release humic acids.

Joan

Is the pH weather dependant, when I had what I think was blanketweed
related high pH, the pH would be better on overcast days.
If its a concrete problem the KH should be high and increasing. If its
algae the KH should be constant.
Peter
Joan wrote:
As long as
the pH is above 8.5 you can add lots of baking soda. ~ jan
Um....did you mean as long as the pH is below 8.5?
No, I meant above. As baking soda will only bring the pH to about 8.3-8.4,
it isn't going to drive it higher if you add a bunch at higher pH levels,
it will just improve the buffering.

So...not to be dumb but...do you mean you can't add baking soda when
the pH is below 8,5? Or just that you have to add it slowly so you
don't change the pH too fast?

Thanks for the response. I'm so glad to know your situation settled
down. My pond is about 3 years old this year too. Maybe it's the
"terrible threes"? Joan
Could be. How are your plants doing? That's how I can tell when my pH is
too high, the plant growth slows way down. ~ jan

Plants are doing well. The algae's doing great! :-P What do you
think about those peat granules that they sell for ponds? They're
supposed to tint the water slightly and gradually release humic acids.

Joan

On Sun, 25 May 2008 12:33:00 EDT, Joan wrote:

So...not to be dumb but...do you mean you can't add baking soda when
the pH is below 8,5?

If your pH is 8.2 and your KH is fine, you wouldn't want to add baking soda
that might up your pH to 8.3-8.4. If you need buffering, yes you can add
baking soda, but just to the amount to increase buffering.

Or just that you have to add it slowly so you
don't change the pH too fast?

That too. ;-)

Plants are doing well. The algae's doing great! :-P What do you
think about those peat granules that they sell for ponds? They're
supposed to tint the water slightly and gradually release humic acids.
Joan

I don't know, but tint slightly? I'd be skeptical.

What kind of plants? Do you have any floaters like WHyacinth or WLettuce?
~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

get some muriatic acid, hydrochloric or HCl from the hardware store. pour acid into
water and dilute the acid down 1 part to 100 parts water. put in a gallon milk
container and poke a VERY small hole so that the acid just drips slowly into the pond
where the water flow is strong. you need to get rid of whatever is causing the base
change. HCl will neutralize without adding anything untoward. it isnt organic so it
wont break down.

acid blows CO2 out of the water. (baking soda and vinegar). calcium carbonate is
not that great for increasing hardness... a combo like dolomitic limestone should
work, but did you actually get dolomitic or did you get "slaked lime" which is CaO
and dissolves fast and makes the pH swing high. the other problem is "plaster of
paris pills" which seems to do the same thing, swing pH around.

what kind of aeration do you have?



On Fri, 23 May 2008 11:49:58 EDT, Joan wrote:
I would love to keep it around 8.5 but I don't seem to be able to do
so. I can't figure out where the excess base is coming from. I
haven't added any cement blocks or anything like that. A long time
ago I added some CaCO3 and some dolomite lime, but the pH never seemed
to increase. Suddently this spring it started going through the roof.
This was before I added the CaCl2 or the BS. My GH was very low, and
my kH around 100. I did a major water change, which dropped the kH
down to about 50. At that time, I was still having high pH values in
the late afternoon--around 9.2, But the pH values in the morning was
down around 8.1, so I was getting huge diurnal pH swings. I was
worried about the effect of the wide swings on the fish. I know that
calcium is supposed to precipitate the excess carbonate out and was
hoping that would dampen the afternoon pH rises.. I also know that
excess photosynthesis will raise the PM pH. So that is why I was
doing what I was doing and trying to keep the algae under control. I
can do a water change, but I'm afraid I'll be right back there where I
started unless I let the KH get dangerously low. I am worried about
alkalosis, but I am also afraid of setting them up for a pH crash
overnight or dangerously high pH swings.

Joan

9.3 is quite high. You should try to keep it around 8.5, highest.
Baking soda stops dissolving in that range, so that shouldn't be
kicking it up over 9. Have you put any objects in the pond recently?
Any cement blocks or something like that? That will raise your PH
through the roof.

If your PH stays up in the 9s or higher, you'll run into Alkalosis,
which can cause big losses. You'll notice that the fish get
excessively slimy and are gasping at the surface if that happens, and
you won't have much time to get things right, starting with a major
water change.

If it were me, I'd avoid the CACL2 and baking soda at least until you
get this worked out. It will only make the problem harder to diagnose.
The PH is likely to be a much worse problem for your fish than GH/KH
levels.

Dave

I think the pH gets a little higher on sunny days. There's no
concrete in my pond. I don't know what's driven up my pH overall,
but I think that the big afternoon spikes are due to algae. KH stays
pretty constant.

Joan

On Sun, 25 May 2008 13:40:37 EDT, Peter Breed
wrote:

Is the pH weather dependant, when I had what I think was blanketweed
related high pH, the pH would be better on overcast days.
If its a concrete problem the KH should be high and increasing. If its
algae the KH should be constant.
Peter

I don't know, but tint slightly? I'd be skeptical.

What kind of plants? Do you have any floaters like WHyacinth or WLettuce?
~ jan

I know, I'm scared to try. I think maybe it tints with tannic acid.

Plants: Mostly marginals. Just added water hyacinth yesterday.
Removed all the elodea till the pH thing settles down.

Joan

you have to get rid of the algae. the big problem is going to come when the water is
warm and the sun goes down it will suck ALL THE OXYGEN out of the pond and by morning
your fish will be gasping if not floating. the bigger ones die first. Ingrid

On Mon, 26 May 2008 11:06:00 EDT, Joan wrote:

I think the pH gets a little higher on sunny days. There's no
concrete in my pond. I don't know what's driven up my pH overall,
but I think that the big afternoon spikes are due to algae. KH stays
pretty constant.

get some muriatic acid, hydrochloric or HCl from the hardware store.

[snipped for bandwidth]

Okay, thanks. I had thought that might be a good thing, but I was a
little afraid.

a combo like dolomitic limestone should
work, but did you actually get dolomitic or did you get "slaked lime" which is CaO
and dissolves fast and makes the pH swing high.

It was really dolomitic limestone. A real PIA because I made the
mistake of choosing an agricultural mix (this was last spring) which
filled my pond with *mud* and took me all season to get rid of. Major
cleanup on the bottom, too.

the other problem is "plaster of
paris pills" which seems to do the same thing, swing pH around.

Oh. I'm glad to know that. I had heard that that was a good thing to
use. Glad I stayed away.

what kind of aeration do you have?

Good-sized waterfall.

Joan