Thanks for your help, Lee.

Nedra

"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
BGD (Bacterial Gill Disease) is a, well, bacterial infection. If the fish
become stressed or their health is compromised, they're open to infection.
I
did a lot of reading on it when John's fish broke with it, but I don't
know
where its origination point would be. It may have come in with his new
fish.
It may have just been there. Your fish have been in residence for quite a
few years: I think they'll be OK. But I'll see if I can find an answer for
you.

Lee

"Nedra" wrote in message
arthlink.net...
John and Lee, Is BGD something I need to worry about
with my fish pond full of koi? They have all been in this
pond all their lives and no fish have been added. None are
sick ... but do I need to worry about this awful disease?

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"johnrutz" wrote in message
...


Lee Brouillet wrote:
The only time I had a fish loss (my first year), it was the largest
fish
that died. I was leaving for work, and my two biggest koi were
floating.
I
had an algae outbreak at the time (and other problems that aren't
pertinent
to your problem). Oxygen deprivation will kill the largest to the
smallest,
but you will find them floating in the morning with nothing to give
prior
warning.

There are several "new things" in the koi world that will kill them:
KHV
(Koi Herpes Virus) and SVC (Spring Viremia of Carp). Not to mention
the
bout
with BGD (Bacterial Gill Disease) that John Rutz just went through
that
has
decimated his collection. The fact that your fish died slowly is
indicative
of a disease, not oxygen deprivation. I'm sure you've seen the
mantra
here
about quarantine, and this is why. It's time consuming, but it's
worth
it to
prevent the loss of your current pets.

Taking a big step into nowhere, I would venture to say that the
first
batch
of new fish were infected: they died first. The resident fish were
incubating. You mention that they looked fine externally, but that
their
eyes looked "funny". "Funny" how - bulging or sunken?

Symptoms of SVC can include: bulging eyes, abdominal swelling,
bloody
mucus
from the vent, spider-web or skin hemorraging.

Symptoms of KHV can include: head down swimming, lethargy and
weakness,
sunken eyes, gill lesions, sandpaper skin or a stringy slime coat,
bloody
sores.

Not all of the symptoms need to be present: the above are
"indications".
You
didn't mention checking the gills: their condition will go a long
way
towards diagnosis.

The incubating fish gave it to the new arrivals. To date, I haven't
heard of
goldies contracting the diseases, but I've been concentrating my
learning
curve towards koi, as that's what I have. I don't know if goldies
can
be
passive carriers, though.

Bugs dying of CO2 died from oxygen deprivation; I don't think they
would
poison the fish. Contaminents from the yard were eliminated (you
said
you
don't use poisons). From my understanding, earthworms are pretty
primitive,
and if they were sick or toxic, they would die pretty quickly. NEVER
feed a
dead earthworm to the fish, but live ones are safe (or they'd be
dead!).
Most airborne poisons would have done in your goldies, too.

If your water parameters were in shape, and your pond does not
suffer
from
oxygen deprivation (airstones are NEVER a bad idea!), I'd say you
were
a
victim to one of the above diseases. Please set up a quarantine
tank:
it's
much less painful than losing pets. The days of purchasing fish and
turning
them loose in your pond are gone: the spectres of KHV and SVC are
REAL.
Reports of these diseases used to be "isolated" a year or two ago;
it
is
now
estimated that 50% of the breeders have been exposed. And it's
growing
geometrically.

If there is anything else I can help with, please let me know.

Lee



I'll add a couple of the signs of BGD are laying on the bottom and
upon examination mucus on the gill plates


John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

Nedra wrote:
John and Lee, Is BGD something I need to worry about
with my fish pond full of koi? They have all been in this
pond all their lives and no fish have been added. None are
sick ... but do I need to worry about this awful disease?

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

according to the information lee found it seems to mainly come on with
the addition of new fish (which is what I did )

I havent found anything which says it can be dormant in a pond and start
from there,, so I dont think you should worry unless you add a new fish

I quarantined mine for the 30 days+ looking back I think the new fish
were showing symptoms but I didnt know what I was looking at and missed it



John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

Thanks John. You have relieved my worries!

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"johnrutz" wrote in message
...


Nedra wrote:
John and Lee, Is BGD something I need to worry about
with my fish pond full of koi? They have all been in this
pond all their lives and no fish have been added. None are
sick ... but do I need to worry about this awful disease?

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

according to the information lee found it seems to mainly come on with
the addition of new fish (which is what I did )

I havent found anything which says it can be dormant in a pond and start
from there,, so I dont think you should worry unless you add a new fish

I quarantined mine for the 30 days+ looking back I think the new fish
were showing symptoms but I didnt know what I was looking at and missed it



John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

Everyone,

Thanks for all of your suggestions - and words of sympathy. I have such
respect for the people in this group! I would have responded more quickly,
but it's been a really bad week....

I have had ponds for about 15 years and always have to remind myself that
keeping animals outdoors is a risky thing. I always tell myself not to get
too attached the them for that reason, but that never sticks for long.

Lee: a few things in your description of KHV reminded me of things I
observed, but did not relate: "sunken eyes" is a good description of how
their eyes looked and "head down swimming" was also something I had never
seen before the last two weeks, but did observe in a few of the fish.

Montanan: I am still trying to get in touch with the village about any
mosquito spraying that might have gone on. I need to check with more
neighbors about possible plant spraying. I have disconnected the mosquito
magnet as well.

The two goldfish survivors seem to be doing OK, but they lost those big
brave koi friends, which always seemed to calm them down.

I plan to buy a water testing kit today and change out about 50% of the
water while I clean up the pond.

Does anyone have any ideas on starting over: treating the pond to lower the
likelihood of infection of new fish?

Thanks,

Rich in Chicago

in article , Lee Brouillet at
wrote on 7/25/03 8:57 AM:

The only time I had a fish loss (my first year), it was the largest fish
that died. I was leaving for work, and my two biggest koi were floating. I
had an algae outbreak at the time (and other problems that aren't pertinent
to your problem). Oxygen deprivation will kill the largest to the smallest,
but you will find them floating in the morning with nothing to give prior
warning.

There are several "new things" in the koi world that will kill them: KHV
(Koi Herpes Virus) and SVC (Spring Viremia of Carp). Not to mention the bout
with BGD (Bacterial Gill Disease) that John Rutz just went through that has
decimated his collection. The fact that your fish died slowly is indicative
of a disease, not oxygen deprivation. I'm sure you've seen the mantra here
about quarantine, and this is why. It's time consuming, but it's worth it to
prevent the loss of your current pets.

Taking a big step into nowhere, I would venture to say that the first batch
of new fish were infected: they died first. The resident fish were
incubating. You mention that they looked fine externally, but that their
eyes looked "funny". "Funny" how - bulging or sunken?

Symptoms of SVC can include: bulging eyes, abdominal swelling, bloody mucus
from the vent, spider-web or skin hemorraging.

Symptoms of KHV can include: head down swimming, lethargy and weakness,
sunken eyes, gill lesions, sandpaper skin or a stringy slime coat, bloody
sores.

Not all of the symptoms need to be present: the above are "indications". You
didn't mention checking the gills: their condition will go a long way
towards diagnosis.

The incubating fish gave it to the new arrivals. To date, I haven't heard of
goldies contracting the diseases, but I've been concentrating my learning
curve towards koi, as that's what I have. I don't know if goldies can be
passive carriers, though.

Bugs dying of CO2 died from oxygen deprivation; I don't think they would
poison the fish. Contaminents from the yard were eliminated (you said you
don't use poisons). From my understanding, earthworms are pretty primitive,
and if they were sick or toxic, they would die pretty quickly. NEVER feed a
dead earthworm to the fish, but live ones are safe (or they'd be dead!).
Most airborne poisons would have done in your goldies, too.

If your water parameters were in shape, and your pond does not suffer from
oxygen deprivation (airstones are NEVER a bad idea!), I'd say you were a
victim to one of the above diseases. Please set up a quarantine tank: it's
much less painful than losing pets. The days of purchasing fish and turning
them loose in your pond are gone: the spectres of KHV and SVC are REAL.
Reports of these diseases used to be "isolated" a year or two ago; it is now
estimated that 50% of the breeders have been exposed. And it's growing
geometrically.

If there is anything else I can help with, please let me know.

Lee


"Richard C. Eberhardt" wrote in message
...
Well, all the koi are dead now: the pretty 12" ones I had for six years
and
the 3 new ones added this summer. They seemed to die one at a time, from
largest to smallest animal.

None of the casualties showed any signs of bruises, parasites, fungus,
etc.
They just stopped eating, became listless, eventually had problems with
buoyancy, and died.

The two goldfish which have been in the pond for a long time still seem
fine.

To help analyze this and perhaps to serve as a warning, I will list the
steps which led to this end and recount all of the changes to the
yard/pond
made this year. If anyone can point out something, I would appreciate it.
I have a beautiful empty pond which I would love to restock with small
koi,
but I am a little afraid right now.

Changes in the Fish Community
1) I had 4 12' koi (raised in my ponds for 6 years) and a couple of 4"
goldfish in the big pond together for more than a year now. I had the big
pond built last summer as a home for the big guys.
2) About a month ago, I picked up 5 small koi (part of the deal I got with
my pond). I put them in my old pond with some goldfish for about 10 days.
These fish were not great fish, but they were free. Two died pretty
quickly
and the rest were very jumpy. But they looked OK so I put them in the new
pond.
3) The new koi all died in the new pond over the course of about 10 more
days.
4) Everyone left seemed OK so I added 3 more 5" koi (from a better
dealer -
these ones were not so jumpy and looked very healthy).
5) About a week later, I noticed that the big koi were not eating
normally.
Which is to say that they were not constantly ready to eat. Generally, if
you kept ladling food, they kept eating it.
6) The big koi died first then one died every other day - pretty much
largest fish to smallest fish (but only the koi). No visible parasites,
wounds, fungus, etc. although their eyes looked funny. They became
listless
and hovered rather than swam. They spent a lot of time at the bottom of
the
pond in the the heron shelter I built. At the end, the floated on the
top,
not moving at all (as if paralyzed), just breathing.

Changes in the Yard
1) Added more mulch around the pond (from a different nursery than last
year).
2) While digging in the yard, fed any earthworms I found to the koi (I
don't
use herbicides or pesticides).
3) Added a mosquito magnet about a month ago. This burns propane to
create
CO2. This was about 15 feet from the pond at a lower level than the lip
of
the pond. (Note: this is about 20 feet from the old pond which is full of
goldfish and has not had these problems).
4) I noticed that the pond has a frog visitor.

My Ideas
1) I introduced some strange koi disease with the new fish. It would be
something that does not leave a mark and strikes the largest animals
first.
2) The worms were toxic, leading to a slow death for the koi.
3) The CO2 plume emitted by the mosquito magnet created a CO2 pool over
the
pond, resulting in a low oxygen situation. The fish were gradually
poisoned
by the gas. The larger the respiration system, the faster the succumb.

Any Ideas would be appreciated, especially advice on how to safely start
over.

Thanks,

Rich in Chicago

My apologies: I usually "disappear" on the weekends.

Please read this article: http://tinyurl.com/i9oy

It will go a long way towards explaining what can be done to "cure" fish of
KHV, and to force them to "break" with the disease if they have it. It will
answer your questions.

So far, SVC doesn't have any procedure to assist the fish: they will die,
plain and simple.

As far as sterilizing the pond is concerned, it's complicated and "if-fy" at
best. The three diseases I mentioned are all viral, not bacterial, and
therefore much more difficult to erradicate. Its kinda like a lot of other
things: the best offense is a good defense. Eliminate the problem before you
have one: Quarantine and run the temp up.

I cannot emphasize enough the importance of testing your water. You need to
test for ammonia (if you use a water treatment for chloramines, you need the
2 part (salycilate) test, not the 1 part (Nessler's) test. Actually, from
what I've read, it won't be too long before this warning will not be
necessary: the EPA wants the Nessler test removed from the shelves due to
its mercury-based testing protocol. But I digress: you need tests for
ammonia, nitrIte and a high-range pH test. A test for KH (total alkalinity)
is worth its weight in gold. A test of nitrAtes is good inasmuch as it will
tell you when a new filter kicks in, and is useful in determining the amount
of "ambient fertilizer" is available for plant use (if you have them). A
test kit for salt is also a good thing to have on hand, although if you can
afford it, a salt meter is much more accurate. Don't let them sell you the
hydrometer used in salt water aquariums: they use salt levels of *. (decimal
point), and we use salt levels at (decimal point) .* (BIG difference). If
you're draining your pond anyway, check your water meter before/after
filling for accurate readings for the gallons. If you can't do that, go to
the garden center of Home Depot or Lowe's and buy one of the meters that
attaches to the end of the water hose (about $20). It's *important* to know
EXACTLY how much water you have in your pond when it comes time to medicate
it: L x W x D x 7.8 just doesn't cut it except if you have a shoebox for a
pond (straight sides and flat bottom). Sloped sides, plant shelves, uneven
bottoms all contribute to much less water than you *think* you have. When
you need to medicate the pond, you need to know how much water you really
have, including plumbing and filters: too much or too little medicine and
you have dead fish or undermedicated ones.

I hope this helps. Let me know if there are other questions I can
(hopefully!) answer.

Lee



"Richard C. Eberhardt" wrote in message
...
Everyone,

Thanks for all of your suggestions - and words of sympathy. I have such
respect for the people in this group! I would have responded more
quickly,
but it's been a really bad week....

I have had ponds for about 15 years and always have to remind myself that
keeping animals outdoors is a risky thing. I always tell myself not to
get
too attached the them for that reason, but that never sticks for long.

Lee: a few things in your description of KHV reminded me of things I
observed, but did not relate: "sunken eyes" is a good description of how
their eyes looked and "head down swimming" was also something I had never
seen before the last two weeks, but did observe in a few of the fish.

Montanan: I am still trying to get in touch with the village about any
mosquito spraying that might have gone on. I need to check with more
neighbors about possible plant spraying. I have disconnected the mosquito
magnet as well.

The two goldfish survivors seem to be doing OK, but they lost those big
brave koi friends, which always seemed to calm them down.

I plan to buy a water testing kit today and change out about 50% of the
water while I clean up the pond.

Does anyone have any ideas on starting over: treating the pond to lower
the
likelihood of infection of new fish?

Thanks,

Rich in Chicago

On 28 Jul 2003 08:57:19 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" wrote:

My apologies: I usually "disappear" on the weekends.

Please read this article: http://tinyurl.com/i9oy

It will go a long way towards explaining what can be done to "cure" fish of
KHV, and to force them to "break" with the disease if they have it. It will
answer your questions.

And an excellent article on quarantine is at this website:
http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/...t%20 Articles

~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

Rich,
Sorry about your loss, and I hope you are not beating yourself up too much.
The infection did not necessarily come with your new fish!

When I got hit, twice, the first time was from birds visiting my pond! They
must have been in an infected pond, and then brought it to my pond!

Of course the second time was indeed from the new fish without quarantine!

Hope your start over will be trouble free.

--
_______________________________________
"The difference between 'involvement' and 'commitment' is
like an eggs-and-ham breakfast:
The chicken was 'involved' - the pig was 'committed'."

http://community.webshots.com/user/godwino

"Richard C. Eberhardt" wrote in message
...
Everyone,

Thanks for all of your suggestions - and words of sympathy. I have such
respect for the people in this group! I would have responded more
quickly,
but it's been a really bad week....

I have had ponds for about 15 years and always have to remind myself that
keeping animals outdoors is a risky thing. I always tell myself not to
get
too attached the them for that reason, but that never sticks for long.

Lee: a few things in your description of KHV reminded me of things I
observed, but did not relate: "sunken eyes" is a good description of how
their eyes looked and "head down swimming" was also something I had never
seen before the last two weeks, but did observe in a few of the fish.

Montanan: I am still trying to get in touch with the village about any
mosquito spraying that might have gone on. I need to check with more
neighbors about possible plant spraying. I have disconnected the mosquito
magnet as well.

The two goldfish survivors seem to be doing OK, but they lost those big
brave koi friends, which always seemed to calm them down.

I plan to buy a water testing kit today and change out about 50% of the
water while I clean up the pond.

Does anyone have any ideas on starting over: treating the pond to lower
the
likelihood of infection of new fish?

Thanks,

Rich in Chicago

in article , Lee Brouillet at
wrote on 7/25/03 8:57 AM:

The only time I had a fish loss (my first year), it was the largest fish
that died. I was leaving for work, and my two biggest koi were floating.
I
had an algae outbreak at the time (and other problems that aren't
pertinent
to your problem). Oxygen deprivation will kill the largest to the
smallest,
but you will find them floating in the morning with nothing to give
prior
warning.

There are several "new things" in the koi world that will kill them: KHV
(Koi Herpes Virus) and SVC (Spring Viremia of Carp). Not to mention the
bout
with BGD (Bacterial Gill Disease) that John Rutz just went through that
has
decimated his collection. The fact that your fish died slowly is
indicative
of a disease, not oxygen deprivation. I'm sure you've seen the mantra
here
about quarantine, and this is why. It's time consuming, but it's worth
it to
prevent the loss of your current pets.

Taking a big step into nowhere, I would venture to say that the first
batch
of new fish were infected: they died first. The resident fish were
incubating. You mention that they looked fine externally, but that their
eyes looked "funny". "Funny" how - bulging or sunken?

Symptoms of SVC can include: bulging eyes, abdominal swelling, bloody
mucus
from the vent, spider-web or skin hemorraging.

Symptoms of KHV can include: head down swimming, lethargy and weakness,
sunken eyes, gill lesions, sandpaper skin or a stringy slime coat,
bloody
sores.

Not all of the symptoms need to be present: the above are "indications".
You
didn't mention checking the gills: their condition will go a long way
towards diagnosis.

The incubating fish gave it to the new arrivals. To date, I haven't
heard of
goldies contracting the diseases, but I've been concentrating my
learning
curve towards koi, as that's what I have. I don't know if goldies can be
passive carriers, though.

Bugs dying of CO2 died from oxygen deprivation; I don't think they would
poison the fish. Contaminents from the yard were eliminated (you said
you
don't use poisons). From my understanding, earthworms are pretty
primitive,
and if they were sick or toxic, they would die pretty quickly. NEVER
feed a
dead earthworm to the fish, but live ones are safe (or they'd be dead!).
Most airborne poisons would have done in your goldies, too.

If your water parameters were in shape, and your pond does not suffer
from
oxygen deprivation (airstones are NEVER a bad idea!), I'd say you were a
victim to one of the above diseases. Please set up a quarantine tank:
it's
much less painful than losing pets. The days of purchasing fish and
turning
them loose in your pond are gone: the spectres of KHV and SVC are REAL.
Reports of these diseases used to be "isolated" a year or two ago; it is
now
estimated that 50% of the breeders have been exposed. And it's growing
geometrically.

If there is anything else I can help with, please let me know.

Lee


"Richard C. Eberhardt" wrote in message
...
Well, all the koi are dead now: the pretty 12" ones I had for six years
and
the 3 new ones added this summer. They seemed to die one at a time,
from
largest to smallest animal.

None of the casualties showed any signs of bruises, parasites, fungus,
etc.
They just stopped eating, became listless, eventually had problems with
buoyancy, and died.

The two goldfish which have been in the pond for a long time still seem
fine.

To help analyze this and perhaps to serve as a warning, I will list the
steps which led to this end and recount all of the changes to the
yard/pond
made this year. If anyone can point out something, I would appreciate
it.
I have a beautiful empty pond which I would love to restock with small
koi,
but I am a little afraid right now.

Changes in the Fish Community
1) I had 4 12' koi (raised in my ponds for 6 years) and a couple of 4"
goldfish in the big pond together for more than a year now. I had the
big
pond built last summer as a home for the big guys.
2) About a month ago, I picked up 5 small koi (part of the deal I got
with
my pond). I put them in my old pond with some goldfish for about 10
days.
These fish were not great fish, but they were free. Two died pretty
quickly
and the rest were very jumpy. But they looked OK so I put them in the
new
pond.
3) The new koi all died in the new pond over the course of about 10
more
days.
4) Everyone left seemed OK so I added 3 more 5" koi (from a better
dealer -
these ones were not so jumpy and looked very healthy).
5) About a week later, I noticed that the big koi were not eating
normally.
Which is to say that they were not constantly ready to eat. Generally,
if
you kept ladling food, they kept eating it.
6) The big koi died first then one died every other day - pretty much
largest fish to smallest fish (but only the koi). No visible
parasites,
wounds, fungus, etc. although their eyes looked funny. They became
listless
and hovered rather than swam. They spent a lot of time at the bottom
of
the
pond in the the heron shelter I built. At the end, the floated on the
top,
not moving at all (as if paralyzed), just breathing.

Changes in the Yard
1) Added more mulch around the pond (from a different nursery than last
year).
2) While digging in the yard, fed any earthworms I found to the koi (I
don't
use herbicides or pesticides).
3) Added a mosquito magnet about a month ago. This burns propane to
create
CO2. This was about 15 feet from the pond at a lower level than the
lip
of
the pond. (Note: this is about 20 feet from the old pond which is full
of
goldfish and has not had these problems).
4) I noticed that the pond has a frog visitor.

My Ideas
1) I introduced some strange koi disease with the new fish. It would
be
something that does not leave a mark and strikes the largest animals
first.
2) The worms were toxic, leading to a slow death for the koi.
3) The CO2 plume emitted by the mosquito magnet created a CO2 pool over
the
pond, resulting in a low oxygen situation. The fish were gradually
poisoned
by the gas. The larger the respiration system, the faster the succumb.

Any Ideas would be appreciated, especially advice on how to safely
start
over.

Thanks,

Rich in Chicago

"Richard C. Eberhardt" wrote in message
...
Well, all the koi are dead now: the pretty 12" ones I had for six years
and
the 3 new ones added this summer. They seemed to die one at a time, from
largest to smallest animal.
snip

Without knowing water parameters, pond size, filtration, etc...My first
guess would be a spike that altered water quality. Could the older long term
fish be more sensitive to spikes?

BV.

"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
The only time I had a fish loss (my first year), it was the largest fish
that died. I was leaving for work, and my two biggest koi were floating. I
had an algae outbreak at the time (and other problems that aren't
pertinent
to your problem). Oxygen deprivation will kill the largest to the
smallest,
but you will find them floating in the morning with nothing to give prior
warning.
snip

Interesting...I was given some GF's and one was football sized. After 2
weeks, we found him floating partially eaten. I assumed it was a critter
attack, but now I wonder.

BV.