Well, all the koi are dead now: the pretty 12" ones I had for six years and
the 3 new ones added this summer. They seemed to die one at a time, from
largest to smallest animal.

None of the casualties showed any signs of bruises, parasites, fungus, etc.
They just stopped eating, became listless, eventually had problems with
buoyancy, and died.

The two goldfish which have been in the pond for a long time still seem
fine.

To help analyze this and perhaps to serve as a warning, I will list the
steps which led to this end and recount all of the changes to the yard/pond
made this year. If anyone can point out something, I would appreciate it.
I have a beautiful empty pond which I would love to restock with small koi,
but I am a little afraid right now.

Changes in the Fish Community
1) I had 4 12' koi (raised in my ponds for 6 years) and a couple of 4"
goldfish in the big pond together for more than a year now. I had the big
pond built last summer as a home for the big guys.
2) About a month ago, I picked up 5 small koi (part of the deal I got with
my pond). I put them in my old pond with some goldfish for about 10 days.
These fish were not great fish, but they were free. Two died pretty quickly
and the rest were very jumpy. But they looked OK so I put them in the new
pond.
3) The new koi all died in the new pond over the course of about 10 more
days.
4) Everyone left seemed OK so I added 3 more 5" koi (from a better dealer -
these ones were not so jumpy and looked very healthy).
5) About a week later, I noticed that the big koi were not eating normally.
Which is to say that they were not constantly ready to eat. Generally, if
you kept ladling food, they kept eating it.
6) The big koi died first then one died every other day - pretty much
largest fish to smallest fish (but only the koi). No visible parasites,
wounds, fungus, etc. although their eyes looked funny. They became listless
and hovered rather than swam. They spent a lot of time at the bottom of the
pond in the the heron shelter I built. At the end, the floated on the top,
not moving at all (as if paralyzed), just breathing.

Changes in the Yard
1) Added more mulch around the pond (from a different nursery than last
year).
2) While digging in the yard, fed any earthworms I found to the koi (I don't
use herbicides or pesticides).
3) Added a mosquito magnet about a month ago. This burns propane to create
CO2. This was about 15 feet from the pond at a lower level than the lip of
the pond. (Note: this is about 20 feet from the old pond which is full of
goldfish and has not had these problems).
4) I noticed that the pond has a frog visitor.

My Ideas
1) I introduced some strange koi disease with the new fish. It would be
something that does not leave a mark and strikes the largest animals first.
2) The worms were toxic, leading to a slow death for the koi.
3) The CO2 plume emitted by the mosquito magnet created a CO2 pool over the
pond, resulting in a low oxygen situation. The fish were gradually poisoned
by the gas. The larger the respiration system, the faster the succumb.

Any Ideas would be appreciated, especially advice on how to safely start
over.

Thanks,

Rich in Chicago

Hi Rich,

Have you previously posted your pond size, water test results, filter
information, etc?
This is not my baliwick but will help the others try and solve your problem.

k30a

Rich, that's too bad. Hopefully this will prove to be a learning
experience and all will be well in the future. How big was your pond?
Looks like all was well until you started adding more fish.
Sorry this happened to you.



On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 00:42:42 GMT, "Richard C. Eberhardt"
wrote:

Well, all the koi are dead now: the pretty 12" ones I had for six years and
the 3 new ones added this summer. They seemed to die one at a time, from
largest to smallest animal.

None of the casualties showed any signs of bruises, parasites, fungus, etc.
They just stopped eating, became listless, eventually had problems with
buoyancy, and died.

The two goldfish which have been in the pond for a long time still seem
fine.

To help analyze this and perhaps to serve as a warning, I will list the
steps which led to this end and recount all of the changes to the yard/pond
made this year. If anyone can point out something, I would appreciate it.
I have a beautiful empty pond which I would love to restock with small koi,
but I am a little afraid right now.

Changes in the Fish Community
1) I had 4 12' koi (raised in my ponds for 6 years) and a couple of 4"
goldfish in the big pond together for more than a year now. I had the big
pond built last summer as a home for the big guys.
2) About a month ago, I picked up 5 small koi (part of the deal I got with
my pond). I put them in my old pond with some goldfish for about 10 days.
These fish were not great fish, but they were free. Two died pretty quickly
and the rest were very jumpy. But they looked OK so I put them in the new
pond.
3) The new koi all died in the new pond over the course of about 10 more
days.
4) Everyone left seemed OK so I added 3 more 5" koi (from a better dealer -
these ones were not so jumpy and looked very healthy).
5) About a week later, I noticed that the big koi were not eating normally.
Which is to say that they were not constantly ready to eat. Generally, if
you kept ladling food, they kept eating it.
6) The big koi died first then one died every other day - pretty much
largest fish to smallest fish (but only the koi). No visible parasites,
wounds, fungus, etc. although their eyes looked funny. They became listless
and hovered rather than swam. They spent a lot of time at the bottom of the
pond in the the heron shelter I built. At the end, the floated on the top,
not moving at all (as if paralyzed), just breathing.

Changes in the Yard
1) Added more mulch around the pond (from a different nursery than last
year).
2) While digging in the yard, fed any earthworms I found to the koi (I don't
use herbicides or pesticides).
3) Added a mosquito magnet about a month ago. This burns propane to create
CO2. This was about 15 feet from the pond at a lower level than the lip of
the pond. (Note: this is about 20 feet from the old pond which is full of
goldfish and has not had these problems).
4) I noticed that the pond has a frog visitor.

My Ideas
1) I introduced some strange koi disease with the new fish. It would be
something that does not leave a mark and strikes the largest animals first.
2) The worms were toxic, leading to a slow death for the koi.
3) The CO2 plume emitted by the mosquito magnet created a CO2 pool over the
pond, resulting in a low oxygen situation. The fish were gradually poisoned
by the gas. The larger the respiration system, the faster the succumb.

Any Ideas would be appreciated, especially advice on how to safely start
over.

Thanks,

Rich in Chicago

The first thing I would do if you dont already have one is to go and buy a
good water testing kit. If I ever loose a fish the water specs is the first
thing I check. I dont think the CO2 killed the fish (through O2
depravation)....unless the fish were at the surface gasping before they
died. But I would say that the buoyancy problem you mentioned could
defiantly be a sign bacterial infection.

"Richard C. Eberhardt" wrote in message ...

Well, all the koi are dead now: the pretty 12" ones I had for six
years and
the 3 new ones added this summer. They seemed to die one at a time, from
largest to smallest animal.

3) Added a mosquito magnet about a month ago. This burns propane to create
CO2. This was about 15 feet from the pond at a lower level than the lip of
the pond. (Note: this is about 20 feet from the old pond which is full of
goldfish and has not had these problems).
3) The CO2 plume emitted by the mosquito magnet created a CO2 pool over the
pond, resulting in a low oxygen situation. The fish were gradually poisoned
by the gas. The larger the respiration system, the faster the succumb.

Any Ideas would be appreciated, especially advice on how to safely start
over.


Rich, I believe the fish were poisoned and died real similar to your
thoughts listed above. As a wildlife biologist, i have seen poisoned
streams etc..where the largest critters died first. Almost always due
to poisoning of some kind, pesticides, herbicides, etc..

In your case, the pesticide killing all the bugs prolly coated the
water surface and formed an almost invisible layer locking out oxygen
exchange etc.. Also, with the CO2 plume that heavy, no doubt many
"poisoned" bugs fell into the pond and were fed upon.

Also, herbicides placed on grass and lawns to kill weeds etc. very
common killers of critters, altho usually the smallest critters die
first in this regard.

my 2 c

Montanan

"Richard C. Eberhardt" wrote in message
...
Well, all the koi are dead now: the pretty 12" ones I had for six years
and
the 3 new ones added this summer. They seemed to die one at a time, from
largest to smallest animal.


SNIP

My Ideas
1) I introduced some strange koi disease with the new fish. It would be
something that does not leave a mark and strikes the largest animals
first.

I'd favour this one......I'm still researching & planning the building of my
first pond but I've kept tropical Aquariums for a number of years - first
rule is to always always quarantine new fish & I'd think this would apply
equally as much to a pond.

Additionally I know from talking to the guys at my LFS that there is/has
been a very nasty Koi specific virus around for the last year or two - you
have to be careful where you buy your fish here in the UK at the moment -
suggest you talk to a number of LFS & ask around about it - I can find out
then name of it if you need it.

Sorry to hear of your losses

I.

"Richard C. Eberhardt" wrote in message ...

Well, all the koi are dead now: the pretty 12" ones I had for six
years and
the 3 new ones added this summer. They seemed to die one at a time, from
largest to smallest animal.

3) Added a mosquito magnet about a month ago. This burns propane to create
CO2. This was about 15 feet from the pond at a lower level than the lip of
the pond. (Note: this is about 20 feet from the old pond which is full of
goldfish and has not had these problems).
3) The CO2 plume emitted by the mosquito magnet created a CO2 pool over the
pond, resulting in a low oxygen situation. The fish were gradually poisoned
by the gas. The larger the respiration system, the faster the succumb.

Any Ideas would be appreciated, especially advice on how to safely start
over.


Rich, I believe the fish were poisoned and died real similar to your
thoughts listed above. As a wildlife biologist, i have seen poisoned
streams etc..where the largest critters died first. Almost always due
to poisoning of some kind, pesticides, herbicides, etc..

In your case, the pesticide killing all the bugs prolly coated the
water surface and formed an almost invisible layer locking out oxygen
exchange etc.. Also, with the CO2 plume that heavy, no doubt many
"poisoned" bugs fell into the pond and were fed upon.

Also, herbicides placed on grass and lawns to kill weeds etc. very
common killers of critters, altho usually the smallest critters die
first in this regard.

my 2 c

Montanan

"Richard C. Eberhardt" wrote in message
...
Well, all the koi are dead now: the pretty 12" ones I had for six years
and
the 3 new ones added this summer. They seemed to die one at a time, from
largest to smallest animal.


SNIP

My Ideas
1) I introduced some strange koi disease with the new fish. It would be
something that does not leave a mark and strikes the largest animals
first.

I'd favour this one......I'm still researching & planning the building of my
first pond but I've kept tropical Aquariums for a number of years - first
rule is to always always quarantine new fish & I'd think this would apply
equally as much to a pond.

Additionally I know from talking to the guys at my LFS that there is/has
been a very nasty Koi specific virus around for the last year or two - you
have to be careful where you buy your fish here in the UK at the moment -
suggest you talk to a number of LFS & ask around about it - I can find out
then name of it if you need it.

Sorry to hear of your losses

I.

No advise to add, just my sympathy. I lost my favorite koi 3 years ago.
It's hard.

--
Wendy* in N. California,
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it." Mae West


"Richard C. Eberhardt" wrote in message
...
Well, all the koi are dead now: the pretty 12" ones I had for six years
and
the 3 new ones added this summer. They seemed to die one at a time, from
largest to smallest animal.

None of the casualties showed any signs of bruises, parasites, fungus,
etc.
They just stopped eating, became listless, eventually had problems with
buoyancy, and died.

The two goldfish which have been in the pond for a long time still seem
fine.

To help analyze this and perhaps to serve as a warning, I will list the
steps which led to this end and recount all of the changes to the
yard/pond
made this year. If anyone can point out something, I would appreciate it.
I have a beautiful empty pond which I would love to restock with small
koi,
but I am a little afraid right now.

Changes in the Fish Community
1) I had 4 12' koi (raised in my ponds for 6 years) and a couple of 4"
goldfish in the big pond together for more than a year now. I had the big
pond built last summer as a home for the big guys.
2) About a month ago, I picked up 5 small koi (part of the deal I got with
my pond). I put them in my old pond with some goldfish for about 10 days.
These fish were not great fish, but they were free. Two died pretty
quickly
and the rest were very jumpy. But they looked OK so I put them in the new
pond.
3) The new koi all died in the new pond over the course of about 10 more
days.
4) Everyone left seemed OK so I added 3 more 5" koi (from a better
dealer -
these ones were not so jumpy and looked very healthy).
5) About a week later, I noticed that the big koi were not eating
normally.
Which is to say that they were not constantly ready to eat. Generally, if
you kept ladling food, they kept eating it.
6) The big koi died first then one died every other day - pretty much
largest fish to smallest fish (but only the koi). No visible parasites,
wounds, fungus, etc. although their eyes looked funny. They became
listless
and hovered rather than swam. They spent a lot of time at the bottom of
the
pond in the the heron shelter I built. At the end, the floated on the
top,
not moving at all (as if paralyzed), just breathing.

Changes in the Yard
1) Added more mulch around the pond (from a different nursery than last
year).
2) While digging in the yard, fed any earthworms I found to the koi (I
don't
use herbicides or pesticides).
3) Added a mosquito magnet about a month ago. This burns propane to
create
CO2. This was about 15 feet from the pond at a lower level than the lip
of
the pond. (Note: this is about 20 feet from the old pond which is full of
goldfish and has not had these problems).
4) I noticed that the pond has a frog visitor.

My Ideas
1) I introduced some strange koi disease with the new fish. It would be
something that does not leave a mark and strikes the largest animals
first.
2) The worms were toxic, leading to a slow death for the koi.
3) The CO2 plume emitted by the mosquito magnet created a CO2 pool over
the
pond, resulting in a low oxygen situation. The fish were gradually
poisoned
by the gas. The larger the respiration system, the faster the succumb.

Any Ideas would be appreciated, especially advice on how to safely start
over.

Thanks,

Rich in Chicago

"Richard C. Eberhardt" wrote in message
...

Well, all the koi are dead now: the pretty 12" ones I had for six years
and
the 3 new ones added this summer. They seemed to die one at a time, from

largest to smallest animal.
My Ideas
1) I introduced some strange koi disease with the new fish. It would be
something that does not leave a mark and strikes the largest animals
first.

I am sorry to hear of your disaster. I doubt the mosquito magnet had
anything to do with this. It produces CO2 and pheromone, attracting
mosquitos to the device for trapping. It does not disseminate poisoned
insects. I would favor one of two possible explanations:

1. Your first choice above. You have a long record of successful Koi
raising, and this seems like the most likely source.

2. Even though you do not normally use pesticides, is it possible for your
neighbor's lawn care product to have been washed into your pond? How about
rose dust/spray. Any fruit trees in the area being sprayed? Spray can drift
a fairly long way, particularly under windy conditions. Did your community
spray for mosquitoes in an effort to prevent West Nile? That said, however,
I would expect the smallest to die first of poisoning.

I would buy a couple of new fish, keep them in an aquarium or child's wading
pool for a couple of weeks of quarantine, and if they are healthy after
that, introduce them into the pond. I would also test the water prior to the
introduction. The survival of the goldfish suggests that the pond water is
not grossly bad.

I am so sorry for the loss of your koi. I would scream for
days on end if it were me...
I really think it was the addition of the new koi to your pond.
There are some vicious viruses out there! As you now know.
I have not added koi to my pond for at least 4 years.
I'm not good with medicating or injecting anything -
let alone fish. I'm even worse at Quarantineing so the best
thing for me to do is be satisfied with the fish I have.
This doesn't help you though .... not now. I suppose I would
clean my pond really Good - then order a couple of Koi from
Brett in Texas. He is the only one I know of whose fish I would
trust to be healthy.

Anyone got the link for Brett's fish farm?

Nedra

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Richard C. Eberhardt" wrote in message
...
Well, all the koi are dead now: the pretty 12" ones I had for six years
and
the 3 new ones added this summer. They seemed to die one at a time, from
largest to smallest animal.

None of the casualties showed any signs of bruises, parasites, fungus,
etc.
They just stopped eating, became listless, eventually had problems with
buoyancy, and died.

The two goldfish which have been in the pond for a long time still seem
fine.

To help analyze this and perhaps to serve as a warning, I will list the
steps which led to this end and recount all of the changes to the
yard/pond
made this year. If anyone can point out something, I would appreciate it.
I have a beautiful empty pond which I would love to restock with small
koi,
but I am a little afraid right now.

Changes in the Fish Community
1) I had 4 12' koi (raised in my ponds for 6 years) and a couple of 4"
goldfish in the big pond together for more than a year now. I had the big
pond built last summer as a home for the big guys.
2) About a month ago, I picked up 5 small koi (part of the deal I got with
my pond). I put them in my old pond with some goldfish for about 10 days.
These fish were not great fish, but they were free. Two died pretty
quickly
and the rest were very jumpy. But they looked OK so I put them in the new
pond.
3) The new koi all died in the new pond over the course of about 10 more
days.
4) Everyone left seemed OK so I added 3 more 5" koi (from a better
dealer -
these ones were not so jumpy and looked very healthy).
5) About a week later, I noticed that the big koi were not eating
normally.
Which is to say that they were not constantly ready to eat. Generally, if
you kept ladling food, they kept eating it.
6) The big koi died first then one died every other day - pretty much
largest fish to smallest fish (but only the koi). No visible parasites,
wounds, fungus, etc. although their eyes looked funny. They became
listless
and hovered rather than swam. They spent a lot of time at the bottom of
the
pond in the the heron shelter I built. At the end, the floated on the
top,
not moving at all (as if paralyzed), just breathing.

Changes in the Yard
1) Added more mulch around the pond (from a different nursery than last
year).
2) While digging in the yard, fed any earthworms I found to the koi (I
don't
use herbicides or pesticides).
3) Added a mosquito magnet about a month ago. This burns propane to
create
CO2. This was about 15 feet from the pond at a lower level than the lip
of
the pond. (Note: this is about 20 feet from the old pond which is full of
goldfish and has not had these problems).
4) I noticed that the pond has a frog visitor.

My Ideas
1) I introduced some strange koi disease with the new fish. It would be
something that does not leave a mark and strikes the largest animals
first.
2) The worms were toxic, leading to a slow death for the koi.
3) The CO2 plume emitted by the mosquito magnet created a CO2 pool over
the
pond, resulting in a low oxygen situation. The fish were gradually
poisoned
by the gas. The larger the respiration system, the faster the succumb.

Any Ideas would be appreciated, especially advice on how to safely start
over.

Thanks,

Rich in Chicago

The only time I had a fish loss (my first year), it was the largest fish
that died. I was leaving for work, and my two biggest koi were floating. I
had an algae outbreak at the time (and other problems that aren't pertinent
to your problem). Oxygen deprivation will kill the largest to the smallest,
but you will find them floating in the morning with nothing to give prior
warning.

There are several "new things" in the koi world that will kill them: KHV
(Koi Herpes Virus) and SVC (Spring Viremia of Carp). Not to mention the bout
with BGD (Bacterial Gill Disease) that John Rutz just went through that has
decimated his collection. The fact that your fish died slowly is indicative
of a disease, not oxygen deprivation. I'm sure you've seen the mantra here
about quarantine, and this is why. It's time consuming, but it's worth it to
prevent the loss of your current pets.

Taking a big step into nowhere, I would venture to say that the first batch
of new fish were infected: they died first. The resident fish were
incubating. You mention that they looked fine externally, but that their
eyes looked "funny". "Funny" how - bulging or sunken?

Symptoms of SVC can include: bulging eyes, abdominal swelling, bloody mucus
from the vent, spider-web or skin hemorraging.

Symptoms of KHV can include: head down swimming, lethargy and weakness,
sunken eyes, gill lesions, sandpaper skin or a stringy slime coat, bloody
sores.

Not all of the symptoms need to be present: the above are "indications". You
didn't mention checking the gills: their condition will go a long way
towards diagnosis.

The incubating fish gave it to the new arrivals. To date, I haven't heard of
goldies contracting the diseases, but I've been concentrating my learning
curve towards koi, as that's what I have. I don't know if goldies can be
passive carriers, though.

Bugs dying of CO2 died from oxygen deprivation; I don't think they would
poison the fish. Contaminents from the yard were eliminated (you said you
don't use poisons). From my understanding, earthworms are pretty primitive,
and if they were sick or toxic, they would die pretty quickly. NEVER feed a
dead earthworm to the fish, but live ones are safe (or they'd be dead!).
Most airborne poisons would have done in your goldies, too.

If your water parameters were in shape, and your pond does not suffer from
oxygen deprivation (airstones are NEVER a bad idea!), I'd say you were a
victim to one of the above diseases. Please set up a quarantine tank: it's
much less painful than losing pets. The days of purchasing fish and turning
them loose in your pond are gone: the spectres of KHV and SVC are REAL.
Reports of these diseases used to be "isolated" a year or two ago; it is now
estimated that 50% of the breeders have been exposed. And it's growing
geometrically.

If there is anything else I can help with, please let me know.

Lee


"Richard C. Eberhardt" wrote in message
...
Well, all the koi are dead now: the pretty 12" ones I had for six years
and
the 3 new ones added this summer. They seemed to die one at a time, from
largest to smallest animal.

None of the casualties showed any signs of bruises, parasites, fungus,
etc.
They just stopped eating, became listless, eventually had problems with
buoyancy, and died.

The two goldfish which have been in the pond for a long time still seem
fine.

To help analyze this and perhaps to serve as a warning, I will list the
steps which led to this end and recount all of the changes to the
yard/pond
made this year. If anyone can point out something, I would appreciate it.
I have a beautiful empty pond which I would love to restock with small
koi,
but I am a little afraid right now.

Changes in the Fish Community
1) I had 4 12' koi (raised in my ponds for 6 years) and a couple of 4"
goldfish in the big pond together for more than a year now. I had the big
pond built last summer as a home for the big guys.
2) About a month ago, I picked up 5 small koi (part of the deal I got with
my pond). I put them in my old pond with some goldfish for about 10 days.
These fish were not great fish, but they were free. Two died pretty
quickly
and the rest were very jumpy. But they looked OK so I put them in the new
pond.
3) The new koi all died in the new pond over the course of about 10 more
days.
4) Everyone left seemed OK so I added 3 more 5" koi (from a better
dealer -
these ones were not so jumpy and looked very healthy).
5) About a week later, I noticed that the big koi were not eating
normally.
Which is to say that they were not constantly ready to eat. Generally, if
you kept ladling food, they kept eating it.
6) The big koi died first then one died every other day - pretty much
largest fish to smallest fish (but only the koi). No visible parasites,
wounds, fungus, etc. although their eyes looked funny. They became
listless
and hovered rather than swam. They spent a lot of time at the bottom of
the
pond in the the heron shelter I built. At the end, the floated on the
top,
not moving at all (as if paralyzed), just breathing.

Changes in the Yard
1) Added more mulch around the pond (from a different nursery than last
year).
2) While digging in the yard, fed any earthworms I found to the koi (I
don't
use herbicides or pesticides).
3) Added a mosquito magnet about a month ago. This burns propane to
create
CO2. This was about 15 feet from the pond at a lower level than the lip
of
the pond. (Note: this is about 20 feet from the old pond which is full of
goldfish and has not had these problems).
4) I noticed that the pond has a frog visitor.

My Ideas
1) I introduced some strange koi disease with the new fish. It would be
something that does not leave a mark and strikes the largest animals
first.
2) The worms were toxic, leading to a slow death for the koi.
3) The CO2 plume emitted by the mosquito magnet created a CO2 pool over
the
pond, resulting in a low oxygen situation. The fish were gradually
poisoned
by the gas. The larger the respiration system, the faster the succumb.

Any Ideas would be appreciated, especially advice on how to safely start
over.

Thanks,

Rich in Chicago

Lee Brouillet wrote:
The only time I had a fish loss (my first year), it was the largest fish
that died. I was leaving for work, and my two biggest koi were floating. I
had an algae outbreak at the time (and other problems that aren't pertinent
to your problem). Oxygen deprivation will kill the largest to the smallest,
but you will find them floating in the morning with nothing to give prior
warning.

There are several "new things" in the koi world that will kill them: KHV
(Koi Herpes Virus) and SVC (Spring Viremia of Carp). Not to mention the bout
with BGD (Bacterial Gill Disease) that John Rutz just went through that has
decimated his collection. The fact that your fish died slowly is indicative
of a disease, not oxygen deprivation. I'm sure you've seen the mantra here
about quarantine, and this is why. It's time consuming, but it's worth it to
prevent the loss of your current pets.

Taking a big step into nowhere, I would venture to say that the first batch
of new fish were infected: they died first. The resident fish were
incubating. You mention that they looked fine externally, but that their
eyes looked "funny". "Funny" how - bulging or sunken?

Symptoms of SVC can include: bulging eyes, abdominal swelling, bloody mucus
from the vent, spider-web or skin hemorraging.

Symptoms of KHV can include: head down swimming, lethargy and weakness,
sunken eyes, gill lesions, sandpaper skin or a stringy slime coat, bloody
sores.

Not all of the symptoms need to be present: the above are "indications". You
didn't mention checking the gills: their condition will go a long way
towards diagnosis.

The incubating fish gave it to the new arrivals. To date, I haven't heard of
goldies contracting the diseases, but I've been concentrating my learning
curve towards koi, as that's what I have. I don't know if goldies can be
passive carriers, though.

Bugs dying of CO2 died from oxygen deprivation; I don't think they would
poison the fish. Contaminents from the yard were eliminated (you said you
don't use poisons). From my understanding, earthworms are pretty primitive,
and if they were sick or toxic, they would die pretty quickly. NEVER feed a
dead earthworm to the fish, but live ones are safe (or they'd be dead!).
Most airborne poisons would have done in your goldies, too.

If your water parameters were in shape, and your pond does not suffer from
oxygen deprivation (airstones are NEVER a bad idea!), I'd say you were a
victim to one of the above diseases. Please set up a quarantine tank: it's
much less painful than losing pets. The days of purchasing fish and turning
them loose in your pond are gone: the spectres of KHV and SVC are REAL.
Reports of these diseases used to be "isolated" a year or two ago; it is now
estimated that 50% of the breeders have been exposed. And it's growing
geometrically.

If there is anything else I can help with, please let me know.

Lee



I'll add a couple of the signs of BGD are laying on the bottom and
upon examination mucus on the gill plates


John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

John and Lee, Is BGD something I need to worry about
with my fish pond full of koi? They have all been in this
pond all their lives and no fish have been added. None are
sick ... but do I need to worry about this awful disease?

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"johnrutz" wrote in message
...


Lee Brouillet wrote:
The only time I had a fish loss (my first year), it was the largest fish
that died. I was leaving for work, and my two biggest koi were floating.
I
had an algae outbreak at the time (and other problems that aren't
pertinent
to your problem). Oxygen deprivation will kill the largest to the
smallest,
but you will find them floating in the morning with nothing to give
prior
warning.

There are several "new things" in the koi world that will kill them: KHV
(Koi Herpes Virus) and SVC (Spring Viremia of Carp). Not to mention the
bout
with BGD (Bacterial Gill Disease) that John Rutz just went through that
has
decimated his collection. The fact that your fish died slowly is
indicative
of a disease, not oxygen deprivation. I'm sure you've seen the mantra
here
about quarantine, and this is why. It's time consuming, but it's worth
it to
prevent the loss of your current pets.

Taking a big step into nowhere, I would venture to say that the first
batch
of new fish were infected: they died first. The resident fish were
incubating. You mention that they looked fine externally, but that their
eyes looked "funny". "Funny" how - bulging or sunken?

Symptoms of SVC can include: bulging eyes, abdominal swelling, bloody
mucus
from the vent, spider-web or skin hemorraging.

Symptoms of KHV can include: head down swimming, lethargy and weakness,
sunken eyes, gill lesions, sandpaper skin or a stringy slime coat,
bloody
sores.

Not all of the symptoms need to be present: the above are "indications".
You
didn't mention checking the gills: their condition will go a long way
towards diagnosis.

The incubating fish gave it to the new arrivals. To date, I haven't
heard of
goldies contracting the diseases, but I've been concentrating my
learning
curve towards koi, as that's what I have. I don't know if goldies can be
passive carriers, though.

Bugs dying of CO2 died from oxygen deprivation; I don't think they would
poison the fish. Contaminents from the yard were eliminated (you said
you
don't use poisons). From my understanding, earthworms are pretty
primitive,
and if they were sick or toxic, they would die pretty quickly. NEVER
feed a
dead earthworm to the fish, but live ones are safe (or they'd be dead!).
Most airborne poisons would have done in your goldies, too.

If your water parameters were in shape, and your pond does not suffer
from
oxygen deprivation (airstones are NEVER a bad idea!), I'd say you were a
victim to one of the above diseases. Please set up a quarantine tank:
it's
much less painful than losing pets. The days of purchasing fish and
turning
them loose in your pond are gone: the spectres of KHV and SVC are REAL.
Reports of these diseases used to be "isolated" a year or two ago; it is
now
estimated that 50% of the breeders have been exposed. And it's growing
geometrically.

If there is anything else I can help with, please let me know.

Lee



I'll add a couple of the signs of BGD are laying on the bottom and
upon examination mucus on the gill plates


John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

BGD (Bacterial Gill Disease) is a, well, bacterial infection. If the fish
become stressed or their health is compromised, they're open to infection. I
did a lot of reading on it when John's fish broke with it, but I don't know
where its origination point would be. It may have come in with his new fish.
It may have just been there. Your fish have been in residence for quite a
few years: I think they'll be OK. But I'll see if I can find an answer for
you.

Lee

"Nedra" wrote in message
arthlink.net...
John and Lee, Is BGD something I need to worry about
with my fish pond full of koi? They have all been in this
pond all their lives and no fish have been added. None are
sick ... but do I need to worry about this awful disease?

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"johnrutz" wrote in message
...


Lee Brouillet wrote:
The only time I had a fish loss (my first year), it was the largest
fish
that died. I was leaving for work, and my two biggest koi were
floating.
I
had an algae outbreak at the time (and other problems that aren't
pertinent
to your problem). Oxygen deprivation will kill the largest to the
smallest,
but you will find them floating in the morning with nothing to give
prior
warning.

There are several "new things" in the koi world that will kill them:
KHV
(Koi Herpes Virus) and SVC (Spring Viremia of Carp). Not to mention
the
bout
with BGD (Bacterial Gill Disease) that John Rutz just went through
that
has
decimated his collection. The fact that your fish died slowly is
indicative
of a disease, not oxygen deprivation. I'm sure you've seen the mantra
here
about quarantine, and this is why. It's time consuming, but it's worth
it to
prevent the loss of your current pets.

Taking a big step into nowhere, I would venture to say that the first
batch
of new fish were infected: they died first. The resident fish were
incubating. You mention that they looked fine externally, but that
their
eyes looked "funny". "Funny" how - bulging or sunken?

Symptoms of SVC can include: bulging eyes, abdominal swelling, bloody
mucus
from the vent, spider-web or skin hemorraging.

Symptoms of KHV can include: head down swimming, lethargy and
weakness,
sunken eyes, gill lesions, sandpaper skin or a stringy slime coat,
bloody
sores.

Not all of the symptoms need to be present: the above are
"indications".
You
didn't mention checking the gills: their condition will go a long way
towards diagnosis.

The incubating fish gave it to the new arrivals. To date, I haven't
heard of
goldies contracting the diseases, but I've been concentrating my
learning
curve towards koi, as that's what I have. I don't know if goldies can
be
passive carriers, though.

Bugs dying of CO2 died from oxygen deprivation; I don't think they
would
poison the fish. Contaminents from the yard were eliminated (you said
you
don't use poisons). From my understanding, earthworms are pretty
primitive,
and if they were sick or toxic, they would die pretty quickly. NEVER
feed a
dead earthworm to the fish, but live ones are safe (or they'd be
dead!).
Most airborne poisons would have done in your goldies, too.

If your water parameters were in shape, and your pond does not suffer
from
oxygen deprivation (airstones are NEVER a bad idea!), I'd say you were
a
victim to one of the above diseases. Please set up a quarantine tank:
it's
much less painful than losing pets. The days of purchasing fish and
turning
them loose in your pond are gone: the spectres of KHV and SVC are
REAL.
Reports of these diseases used to be "isolated" a year or two ago; it
is
now
estimated that 50% of the breeders have been exposed. And it's growing
geometrically.

If there is anything else I can help with, please let me know.

Lee



I'll add a couple of the signs of BGD are laying on the bottom and
upon examination mucus on the gill plates


John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com