Exactly right BV.

There is NOTHING natural about a pond of a few thousand gallons or less run
by pumps and filters, especially with more than 1 fish/1000 gallons.... I'm
sure mother nature gives her fish more than 1000 gallons each!

I think you're very lucky Mike, and I hope it doesn't come back to bite you
in the butt like it did me last year. I was a causal water tester & water
changer. Then I hit critcal mass and even though I corrected the problems
and never had water quality totally out of whack, I've sure suffered my
losses.

That's the one thing that really surprised me, even once you correct the
Water Quality and/or over crowding problem, you can still have health
problems and/or fish losses. ~ jan

I think you are right with one caveat...I pond in the same manner, build it
and let it take care of itself, but when I built, I over built my filter. I
think if you have a large body of water, properly filtered, it is much more
forgiving then an overstocked, smaller pond.

BV.

wrote in message ...
Eyeball it..LOL Nothing scientific about it. I have never checked water
PH
etc in over 10 years. It is an outdoor pond . Its conditions are
dependent
on how much rain or lack of rain we get. If we get plenty of rain ..that
in
itself changes the water in the pond. If it is a dry spell in the Summer
I
might do a 1/3 water change every other week. I am not going to drive
myself nuts trying to keep the water conditions at a perfect level. My 10
year old Koi are proof that you don't have to go overboard and make allot
of
work for yourself with keeping a healthy pond. It is much better to have
fish that are adaptable to varying conditions, outdoor koi and goldfish
are
those types of creatures. Very adaptable. IMHO and experience. MIKE


(Do you know where your water quality is?)

Yes. The smell of sex is potent. Smaller fish spawning one at a time don't
really make much of a scent, but when all of the fish decide to spawn at the
same time, you don't even have to go near the pond to know what they have
been doing.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html
wrote in message ...
I can always tell when my koi are spawning because of a pronounced "fishy"
smell coming from the water. I have walked up to my pond and caught a
wiff
of that "smell" and sure enough I have seen the fish spawning. Anyone
ever
notice that??? Mike
"Lee B." wrote in message
...
RTB gave a pretty good synopsis of the situation.

I pretty much have the "standard" of koi keeping: too many fish in too
few
gallons. I'm working on that. When I started this hobby, no one told me
that
once you get past killing them with ignorance, they GROW. and BREED. One
good spawning session can *trash* your water quality for days. In a lake
or
river (their "natural" environment) there is a constant source of fresh
water, with new nutrients washing in and bad stuff washing out. In
captivity, they are kept in what is tantamount to a cess pool - and it's
up
to us, their "captors" to treat them humanely, which includes washing
out
the bad and reintroducing the new. There are "ideals" that should be
strived
for; there are "compromises" that can work. A dog *can* live at the end
of
a
chain, tied to a tree and thrown scraps, but that's not exactly "life".
My
fish are pets - with all that word conjures up; they are my
responsibility,
and I *will* see that they are properly tended to to the extent of my
ability. Does that make them "spoiled"? Maybe - but it keeps them
healthy,
too.

Lee

wrote in message .
...
Yes...they do vary *wildly* but koi are very adaptable fish. They can
adapt
to almost any environment. Lets say you adapt you koi to a certain
water
quality..that you feel they do best in. PH ,water hardness, a
pristine
level...then they become accustomed to that water quality. So every
time
it
rains, or you do a water change aren't they more sensitive to disease
and
stress because they are "spoiled", used to one specific water
quality???
I'm not arguing your point...just curious?? thanks Mike
"Lee B." wrote in message
...
One of the things that I've learned on my journey to proper koi
keeping
is
that conditions vary *wildly* from place to place within the U.S.,
let
alone
the rest of the world. Your recommendation - which obviously works
well
for
you in your part of the world - would be condemning my fish (in MY
part
of
the world) to certain death in very short order. Kick back, relax
and
thank
your deity of choice for living in such a fortunate location.

Lee

wrote in message
...
Eyeball it..LOL Nothing scientific about it. I have never
checked
water
PH
etc in over 10 years. It is an outdoor pond . Its conditions are
dependent
on how much rain or lack of rain we get. If we get plenty of rain
..that
in
itself changes the water in the pond. If it is a dry spell in the
Summer
I
might do a 1/3 water change every other week. I am not going to
drive
myself nuts trying to keep the water conditions at a perfect
level.
My
10
year old Koi are proof that you don't have to go overboard and
make
allot
of
work for yourself with keeping a healthy pond. It is much better
to
have
fish that are adaptable to varying conditions, outdoor koi and
goldfish
are
those types of creatures. Very adaptable. IMHO and experience.
MIKE

Once the immune system is compromised by the stress of overcrowding, or poor
water quality, it takes a long time for the immune system to get back up to
strength, and the fish will continue to break with ulcers or worse. It is
very tiring to get over a breakout.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html
"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
s.com...
Exactly right BV.

There is NOTHING natural about a pond of a few thousand gallons or less
run
by pumps and filters, especially with more than 1 fish/1000 gallons....
I'm
sure mother nature gives her fish more than 1000 gallons each!

I think you're very lucky Mike, and I hope it doesn't come back to bite
you
in the butt like it did me last year. I was a causal water tester & water
changer. Then I hit critcal mass and even though I corrected the problems
and never had water quality totally out of whack, I've sure suffered my
losses.

That's the one thing that really surprised me, even once you correct the
Water Quality and/or over crowding problem, you can still have health
problems and/or fish losses. ~ jan

I think you are right with one caveat...I pond in the same manner, build
it
and let it take care of itself, but when I built, I over built my filter.
I
think if you have a large body of water, properly filtered, it is much
more
forgiving then an overstocked, smaller pond.

BV.

wrote in message
...
Eyeball it..LOL Nothing scientific about it. I have never checked
water
PH
etc in over 10 years. It is an outdoor pond . Its conditions are
dependent
on how much rain or lack of rain we get. If we get plenty of rain
...that
in
itself changes the water in the pond. If it is a dry spell in the
Summer
I
might do a 1/3 water change every other week. I am not going to drive
myself nuts trying to keep the water conditions at a perfect level. My
10
year old Koi are proof that you don't have to go overboard and make
allot
of
work for yourself with keeping a healthy pond. It is much better to
have
fish that are adaptable to varying conditions, outdoor koi and goldfish
are
those types of creatures. Very adaptable. IMHO and experience. MIKE


(Do you know where your water quality is?)

That's how we find bream beds in Alabama. g
Mark B.

wrote:
I can always tell when my koi are spawning because of a pronounced "fishy"
smell coming from the water. I have walked up to my pond and caught a wiff
of that "smell" and sure enough I have seen the fish spawning. Anyone ever
notice that??? Mike
"Lee B." wrote in message
...

RTB gave a pretty good synopsis of the situation.

I pretty much have the "standard" of koi keeping: too many fish in too

few

gallons. I'm working on that. When I started this hobby, no one told me

that

once you get past killing them with ignorance, they GROW. and BREED. One
good spawning session can *trash* your water quality for days. In a lake

or

river (their "natural" environment) there is a constant source of fresh
water, with new nutrients washing in and bad stuff washing out. In
captivity, they are kept in what is tantamount to a cess pool - and it's

up

to us, their "captors" to treat them humanely, which includes washing out
the bad and reintroducing the new. There are "ideals" that should be

strived

for; there are "compromises" that can work. A dog *can* live at the end of

a

chain, tied to a tree and thrown scraps, but that's not exactly "life".

My

fish are pets - with all that word conjures up; they are my

responsibility,

and I *will* see that they are properly tended to to the extent of my
ability. Does that make them "spoiled"? Maybe - but it keeps them healthy,
too.

Lee

wrote in message ...

Yes...they do vary *wildly* but koi are very adaptable fish. They can

adapt

to almost any environment. Lets say you adapt you koi to a certain

water

quality..that you feel they do best in. PH ,water hardness, a pristine
level...then they become accustomed to that water quality. So every time

it

rains, or you do a water change aren't they more sensitive to disease

and

stress because they are "spoiled", used to one specific water quality???
I'm not arguing your point...just curious?? thanks Mike
"Lee B." wrote in message
.. .

One of the things that I've learned on my journey to proper koi

keeping

is

that conditions vary *wildly* from place to place within the U.S., let

alone

the rest of the world. Your recommendation - which obviously works

well

for

you in your part of the world - would be condemning my fish (in MY

part

of

the world) to certain death in very short order. Kick back, relax and

thank

your deity of choice for living in such a fortunate location.

Lee

wrote in message

...

Eyeball it..LOL Nothing scientific about it. I have never checked

water

PH

etc in over 10 years. It is an outdoor pond . Its conditions are

dependent

on how much rain or lack of rain we get. If we get plenty of rain

..that

in

itself changes the water in the pond. If it is a dry spell in the

Summer

I

might do a 1/3 water change every other week. I am not going to

drive

myself nuts trying to keep the water conditions at a perfect level.

My

10

year old Koi are proof that you don't have to go overboard and make

allot

of

work for yourself with keeping a healthy pond. It is much better to

have

fish that are adaptable to varying conditions, outdoor koi and

goldfish

are

those types of creatures. Very adaptable. IMHO and experience. MIKE

Yes...We do that around here also. {:O) Mike
"Mark Bannister" wrote in message
...
That's how we find bream beds in Alabama. g
Mark B.

wrote:
I can always tell when my koi are spawning because of a pronounced
"fishy"
smell coming from the water. I have walked up to my pond and caught a
wiff
of that "smell" and sure enough I have seen the fish spawning. Anyone
ever
notice that??? Mike
"Lee B." wrote in message
...

RTB gave a pretty good synopsis of the situation.

I pretty much have the "standard" of koi keeping: too many fish in too

few

gallons. I'm working on that. When I started this hobby, no one told me

that

once you get past killing them with ignorance, they GROW. and BREED. One
good spawning session can *trash* your water quality for days. In a lake

or

river (their "natural" environment) there is a constant source of fresh
water, with new nutrients washing in and bad stuff washing out. In
captivity, they are kept in what is tantamount to a cess pool - and it's

up

to us, their "captors" to treat them humanely, which includes washing
out
the bad and reintroducing the new. There are "ideals" that should be

strived

for; there are "compromises" that can work. A dog *can* live at the end
of

a

chain, tied to a tree and thrown scraps, but that's not exactly "life".

My

fish are pets - with all that word conjures up; they are my

responsibility,

and I *will* see that they are properly tended to to the extent of my
ability. Does that make them "spoiled"? Maybe - but it keeps them
healthy,
too.

Lee

wrote in message
...

Yes...they do vary *wildly* but koi are very adaptable fish. They can

adapt

to almost any environment. Lets say you adapt you koi to a certain

water

quality..that you feel they do best in. PH ,water hardness, a pristine
level...then they become accustomed to that water quality. So every
time

it

rains, or you do a water change aren't they more sensitive to disease

and

stress because they are "spoiled", used to one specific water
quality???
I'm not arguing your point...just curious?? thanks Mike
"Lee B." wrote in message
.. .

One of the things that I've learned on my journey to proper koi

keeping

is

that conditions vary *wildly* from place to place within the U.S., let

alone

the rest of the world. Your recommendation - which obviously works

well

for

you in your part of the world - would be condemning my fish (in MY

part

of

the world) to certain death in very short order. Kick back, relax and

thank

your deity of choice for living in such a fortunate location.

Lee

wrote in message

...

Eyeball it..LOL Nothing scientific about it. I have never checked

water

PH

etc in over 10 years. It is an outdoor pond . Its conditions are

dependent

on how much rain or lack of rain we get. If we get plenty of rain

..that

in

itself changes the water in the pond. If it is a dry spell in the

Summer

I

might do a 1/3 water change every other week. I am not going to

drive

myself nuts trying to keep the water conditions at a perfect level.

My

10

year old Koi are proof that you don't have to go overboard and make

allot

of

work for yourself with keeping a healthy pond. It is much better to

have

fish that are adaptable to varying conditions, outdoor koi and

goldfish

are

those types of creatures. Very adaptable. IMHO and experience. MIKE

I have a filter that is very large for the pond size. I don't over feed.
Usually what the will eat in a few minutes and only every other day.
Sometimes I let them go for a week and they eat the algae. I've been
keeping fish since 1970 so have plenty of experience. Commercially bred
rare Killifish (was involved in a breeding project to help save a species of
endangered desert pupfish)& Betas back in the early 70's & 80's. Then a
sundry other types of fish. In other words I know what I am doing and also
know about all the rip-offs and unnecessary gadgets that are sold for
aquarium lovers. I believe in rigid water changes(unless we have allot of
rain). What works for me may not work for other people or visa versa.
Other the years it all becomes intuition..like anything else. LOL MIKE
"Mark Bannister" wrote in message
...
That's how we find bream beds in Alabama. g
Mark B.

wrote:
I can always tell when my koi are spawning because of a pronounced
"fishy"
smell coming from the water. I have walked up to my pond and caught a
wiff
of that "smell" and sure enough I have seen the fish spawning. Anyone
ever
notice that??? Mike
"Lee B." wrote in message
...

RTB gave a pretty good synopsis of the situation.

I pretty much have the "standard" of koi keeping: too many fish in too

few

gallons. I'm working on that. When I started this hobby, no one told me

that

once you get past killing them with ignorance, they GROW. and BREED. One
good spawning session can *trash* your water quality for days. In a lake

or

river (their "natural" environment) there is a constant source of fresh
water, with new nutrients washing in and bad stuff washing out. In
captivity, they are kept in what is tantamount to a cess pool - and it's

up

to us, their "captors" to treat them humanely, which includes washing
out
the bad and reintroducing the new. There are "ideals" that should be

strived

for; there are "compromises" that can work. A dog *can* live at the end
of

a

chain, tied to a tree and thrown scraps, but that's not exactly "life".

My

fish are pets - with all that word conjures up; they are my

responsibility,

and I *will* see that they are properly tended to to the extent of my
ability. Does that make them "spoiled"? Maybe - but it keeps them
healthy,
too.

Lee

wrote in message
...

Yes...they do vary *wildly* but koi are very adaptable fish. They can

adapt

to almost any environment. Lets say you adapt you koi to a certain

water

quality..that you feel they do best in. PH ,water hardness, a pristine
level...then they become accustomed to that water quality. So every
time

it

rains, or you do a water change aren't they more sensitive to disease

and

stress because they are "spoiled", used to one specific water
quality???
I'm not arguing your point...just curious?? thanks Mike
"Lee B." wrote in message
.. .

One of the things that I've learned on my journey to proper koi

keeping

is

that conditions vary *wildly* from place to place within the U.S., let

alone

the rest of the world. Your recommendation - which obviously works

well

for

you in your part of the world - would be condemning my fish (in MY

part

of

the world) to certain death in very short order. Kick back, relax and

thank

your deity of choice for living in such a fortunate location.

Lee

wrote in message

...

Eyeball it..LOL Nothing scientific about it. I have never checked

water

PH

etc in over 10 years. It is an outdoor pond . Its conditions are

dependent

on how much rain or lack of rain we get. If we get plenty of rain

..that

in

itself changes the water in the pond. If it is a dry spell in the

Summer

I

might do a 1/3 water change every other week. I am not going to

drive

myself nuts trying to keep the water conditions at a perfect level.

My

10

year old Koi are proof that you don't have to go overboard and make

allot

of

work for yourself with keeping a healthy pond. It is much better to

have

fish that are adaptable to varying conditions, outdoor koi and

goldfish

are

those types of creatures. Very adaptable. IMHO and experience. MIKE