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#16
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aeration
Bill,
this site has pictures for a standard TT design http://koi-uk.co.uk/trickle_tower.htm Adapt it to your 5 gallons bucket. Gas exchange happens at the interface of water and air. The more rocks the water trickle down on, the better the gas exchange would be. This means that the rocks in a TT should only be coated with water, not being submersed. The more surface area the rocks have, the better the gas exchange would be. This is why high surface area bio balls and lava rocks are used in a TT. Set the TT far away somewhere. Hide it if you prefer that way. Run a hose from the spigot at the bottom of the TT to the pond, feed into it either above or below the water. Since your 200 gph pump is weak and has no prefilter, you need to design a prefilter to cope with constant maintenance from pump clogging. Someone recently mentioned clamping the pump between 2 water plant baskets as a prefilter. I used only 1. My 600 gallons pond is in SoCal. It's being aerated by a 180 gph pump feeding a 5 gallons bucket TT. It had no problems during 2 days heat wave last time. Newbie Bill wrote: I have tried to read up a little on your trickle tower but perhaps your suggestions will answer quicker. First of all - "natural'. If I am understanding the idea - how do you get a bucket of rocks, sticking up out of your pond to look natural? I have my babbling brook effect pretty much in the middle of the 'deep' end with the thought it will distribute a little better. If the trickle filter is 'hidden' on the side will the aeration dispurse as evenly? or is that a real consideration. I am obviously missing something as well - newbie remember. The few things that I read sounded like a trickle tower is essentially a bio filter. It makes sense if the water is getting oxygen and then immediately falling on the rocks these bio bugs would be well aerated as compared to other methods - but does this actually create more oxygen available to the pond. Lastly? I have tried the "gravel in the milk crate prefilter idea" and even that I found very difficult to pull from the pond. Wouldnt this or any suggestion of filling a 5 pound bucket with pea gravel be very heavy to put in and out of the pond? Thanks for you help! Bill Brister |
#17
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aeration
actually, the smaller the air bubbles coming out of the air stone the larger the over
all surface to volume ratio. which is why airstones can put so much more air into water that just disturbing the surface. now if those bubbles break the surface and rise into the air there is exchange both on the inside and outside of that film of water. an airstone in the water moves a water column up to the top and it flows outwards creating a moving column of water that brings water from the bottom up to the top or vertically. this is much better circulation than a venturi that moves water only horizontally across the surface. pumps should not be put on the bottom of ponds. too much chance of something going wrong and the pond being drained. Ingrid Actually, the air water interface is at least as important, if not more important. The larger the surface area of the air/water interface, the greater the exchange of gases. While an airstone can pump air through the water, it does so in a limited way, since it is only making contact with a small area of water at a time and only influences the immediate area around the airstone. By inducing a current across the surface of the water with a pump located at the bottom of the pond, you will induce more gas exchange because of the greater surface area involved. It also helps in preventing zonation from froming in the water column, since you are pumping the water from the bottom and streaming it across the surface, which in turn, allows oxygenated water to move towards the bottom of the pond. The ripples going across the surface of the pond also looks nice. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
#18
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aeration
the greatest risk to fish for low oxygen is
1. pond water is hot, less oxygen dissolves in hot water 2. the pond is full of green algae (well maybe green plants too) 3. big fish (big fish suffer first) 4. poor aeration if you absolutely, positively want to make damn sure there is sufficient oxygen get an aquatic ecosystem whitewater regenerative blower ($179) or their swee****er (around $379) and a foot long air stone for every 1000 gallons. Ingrid ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
#19
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aeration
my foot long airstone is right under the waterfall, I have it hanging length ways
(horizontal) so it foams the water as it spills over from the veggie filter. actually I could put the air stone into the veggie filter too. my water lilies are 2-3' away and not disturbed at all. the area where I sit and watch my fish is glass smooth... well except when the buggers see me they go nuts splashing me for food. there is tremendous efficiency in airstones .. Ingrid Sean Dinh wrote: I hate to see any water feature with a venturi or an airstone. They're so unnatural. The parts I hate the most about them are that they disturb the water surface and create extreme light ray distortion, making viewing the content of the body of water highly distractive. There is little efficiency in oxygenating the water through airstone. The venturi adds little more to that. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
#20
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aeration
trickle towers are extremely good for people with less than ideal water, especially
those with high CO2, iron or hydrogen sulfide in their well water. Ingrid EROSPAM (Ka30P) wrote: Just for fun I entered trickle tower into google images and found 58 images listed. http://images.google.com/images?q=tr...1&hl=en&btnG=G oogle+Search I don't have one but they were all the rage on the water gardening magazine forum a couple of years ago. kathy :-) A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/"Once upon a pond/A ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
#21
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aeration
wrote in message ... actually, the smaller the air bubbles coming out of the air stone the larger the over all surface to volume ratio. which is why airstones can put so much more air into water that just disturbing the surface. now if those bubbles break the surface and rise into the air there is exchange both on the inside and outside of that film of water. an airstone in the water moves a water column up to the top and it flows outwards creating a moving column of water that brings water from the bottom up to the top or vertically. this is much better circulation than a venturi that moves water only horizontally across the surface. In a pond, as opposed to an aquarium, in order to get an equivalent water flow and gas exchange from an airstone would require vastly more air than most people are willing to spend the money on, in my opinion. And the water movement into the column disipates over a fairly short distance. oxygenating fresh water is simpler, and less critical than it is with salt water, especially with goldfish, since they can practically live in sewage. Larger fish like koi are a different story. But the whole issue is probably moot anyway, since if the fish aren't suffering, there is really no point in going to the added expense and trouble. I can see a situation in which you have too much bioload in the pond then you would need to add air, but to me the best solution is to simply reduce the bioload. Fish gasping for air because of too little oxygen in the water is a sure sign of a pond that simply has too much growth. The only time I use an airstone is in the dead of winter to keep the water moving, since I don't want to damage my pump by having it freeze up on me. I do use a floating de-icer, but that doesn't guarantee that the water in the filter won't freeze. pumps should not be put on the bottom of ponds. too much chance of something going wrong and the pond being drained. Ingrid I agree that you should never place the pump directly on the bottom of the pond unprotected. However, if the piping is installed properly, and you add an adequate pre-filter to the pump intake (one that can be easily cleaned), I see no reason not to put a pump on the bottom. I don't do it simply because my filtration system is designed differently. Personally, I use the suction method in my filtration system instead of positive pressure for several reasons. First, I have a 5 gallon pre-filter in the bottom of the pond, to which is attached to the intake of the main filter. The main filter consists of an old jacuzzi swimming pool filter housing (about 40 gallons capacity) that I have adapted for use in the pond. The filter is submersed in the pond out of sight beneath my waterfall. The intake line attaches to a 90degree elbow, which is attached to a threaded coupling that goes into the bottom of the filter tank. Attached to the coupling on the inside of the tank is a stainless steel basket line strainer that catches any debris that happens to get past the prefilter (which usually is very little). Surrounding the strainer is about 50 lbs of quartz aquarium gravel, which fills the tank about half way to the top. Above the gravel is a very course mesh polymer pad to keep the gravel from getting sucked up into the pump. The pump sits about two inches above this pad. The pump is attached to the top plate via fittings, into which the outlet is attached. The electrical cable also goes through the top plate via a rubber electrical grommet. The top of the filter sits about three inches below the top of the water in the pond, so the pump intake itself is submerged into about the top 15 inches of water. The effect is just to suck or pull the water through the system. The only water going through the pump is filtered water. It is at the end instead of at the beginning of the filtration process. An added benfit is that it can never pump all of the water out of the pond. I always know when the pre-filter needs cleaning or the water level has dropped for some reason, because the pump will raise pitch due to the water level being drawn down to the level of the pump intake (inside the filter housing), causing a slight cavitation. Since I check it every day, there is very little risk of the pump burning out due to extended caviation and/or overheating. And the pump was actually designed to run practially dry. When I get a chance, I will give you a link to some photos of the filtration system. Oh, and because I use a very efficient pre-filter, I almost never have to backwash the main filter, which allows the bacteria to flourish undisturbed. I do, about once every six months, open the filter and swish the gravel around to get rid of any potential clumping, and then pump the gunk out into a bucket. But I haven't had to do it yet this year. I still have full water flow. One day, when I decide to spend the money, which will probably be whenever the pump fails, this is the pump that is on my "some day" wish list: http://www.flotecpump.com/ Actually, the air water interface is at least as important, if not more important. The larger the surface area of the air/water interface, the greater the exchange of gases. While an airstone can pump air through the water, it does so in a limited way, since it is only making contact with a small area of water at a time and only influences the immediate area around the airstone. By inducing a current across the surface of the water with a pump located at the bottom of the pond, you will induce more gas exchange because of the greater surface area involved. It also helps in preventing zonation from froming in the water column, since you are pumping the water from the bottom and streaming it across the surface, which in turn, allows oxygenated water to move towards the bottom of the pond. The ripples going across the surface of the pond also looks nice. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
#22
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aeration
I really liked the strawberry pot with the lava stone in it. I'm going to
have to figure out how to impliment that. I worry though if it will make the water hotter... I have my pump in a 5 gallon bucket that is filled with lava rock. I clean it about once a year and have had no trouble with it. Basically you can tell if it needs cleaned if the rate of water flow slows. "Sean Dinh" wrote in message ... Bill, this site has pictures for a standard TT design http://koi-uk.co.uk/trickle_tower.htm Adapt it to your 5 gallons bucket. Gas exchange happens at the interface of water and air. The more rocks the water trickle down on, the better the gas exchange would be. This means that the rocks in a TT should only be coated with water, not being submersed. The more surface area the rocks have, the better the gas exchange would be. This is why high surface area bio balls and lava rocks are used in a TT. Set the TT far away somewhere. Hide it if you prefer that way. Run a hose from the spigot at the bottom of the TT to the pond, feed into it either above or below the water. Since your 200 gph pump is weak and has no prefilter, you need to design a prefilter to cope with constant maintenance from pump clogging. Someone recently mentioned clamping the pump between 2 water plant baskets as a prefilter. I used only 1. My 600 gallons pond is in SoCal. It's being aerated by a 180 gph pump feeding a 5 gallons bucket TT. It had no problems during 2 days heat wave last time. Newbie Bill wrote: I have tried to read up a little on your trickle tower but perhaps your suggestions will answer quicker. First of all - "natural'. If I am understanding the idea - how do you get a bucket of rocks, sticking up out of your pond to look natural? I have my babbling brook effect pretty much in the middle of the 'deep' end with the thought it will distribute a little better. If the trickle filter is 'hidden' on the side will the aeration dispurse as evenly? or is that a real consideration. I am obviously missing something as well - newbie remember. The few things that I read sounded like a trickle tower is essentially a bio filter. It makes sense if the water is getting oxygen and then immediately falling on the rocks these bio bugs would be well aerated as compared to other methods - but does this actually create more oxygen available to the pond. Lastly? I have tried the "gravel in the milk crate prefilter idea" and even that I found very difficult to pull from the pond. Wouldnt this or any suggestion of filling a 5 pound bucket with pea gravel be very heavy to put in and out of the pond? Thanks for you help! Bill Brister |
#23
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aeration
I find GF more touchy about water quality and aeration than koi. Ingrid
" George" wrote: oxygenating fresh water is simpler, and less critical than it is with salt water, especially with goldfish, since they can practically live in sewage. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
#24
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aeration
wrote in message ... I find GF more touchy about water quality and aeration than koi. Ingrid Really? I don't understand why. Maybe I am mistaken, but aren't they natural air gulpers. It has always been my understanding that goldfish can tolerate less than ideal conditions, while koi cannot. " George" wrote: oxygenating fresh water is simpler, and less critical than it is with salt water, especially with goldfish, since they can practically live in sewage. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
#25
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aeration
" George" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... I find GF more touchy about water quality and aeration than koi. Ingrid Really? I don't understand why. Maybe I am mistaken, but aren't they natural air gulpers. It has always been my understanding that goldfish can tolerate less than ideal conditions, while koi cannot. My mother was baby sitting her neighbor's goldfish for a week last year. The neighbor just told them to feed 'em once a day. We showed up to the house, and their kitchen had a distinctive diaper odor. We thought nothing of it, because our nephew had been there, and we figured the garbage can was to blame. I took it out. The smell persisted. At one point I went over to fish bowl to say hello, and the smell from the gallon or so of water nearly knocked me off my feet. I've smelled toilets in bars that were cleaner then this. I had no dechlor, and didn't know of a pet shop, so we set some water out all night, and did partial water changes over two days. By the end of the weekend, the fish was no longer gulping, and the odor was gone. I can't speak for all goldies, but this guy was surviving in absolute filth. BV. |
#26
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aeration
no.. those are bettas can gulp air. the idea comes from the goldfish bowl and the
carnival GF. most all die, but the occasional one survives horrible conditions. fancy GF dont survive long at all. it is always the commons that make it. Ingrid " George" wrote: Really? I don't understand why. Maybe I am mistaken, but aren't they natural air gulpers. It has always been my understanding that goldfish can tolerate less than ideal conditions, while koi cannot. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
#27
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aeration
wrote in message ... no.. those are bettas can gulp air. the idea comes from the goldfish bowl and the carnival GF. most all die, but the occasional one survives horrible conditions. fancy GF dont survive long at all. it is always the commons that make it. Ingrid " George" wrote: Really? I don't understand why. Maybe I am mistaken, but aren't they natural air gulpers. It has always been my understanding that goldfish can tolerate less than ideal conditions, while koi cannot. Well, apparently you are right. I did some research and found this article: http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art3503.asp Excuse my ignorance. Chalk it up to many years of experience raising tropical and salt water fish, and virtually none with cold water species (except for the last year or so). Everyone who has goldfish should read that artcicle. You live and learn, right? |
#28
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aeration
the only part she got wrong was em being cold water fish. they arent. their
metabolism peaks at 75-78oF. Ingrid " George" wrote: wrote in message ... no.. those are bettas can gulp air. the idea comes from the goldfish bowl and the carnival GF. most all die, but the occasional one survives horrible conditions. fancy GF dont survive long at all. it is always the commons that make it. Ingrid " George" wrote: Really? I don't understand why. Maybe I am mistaken, but aren't they natural air gulpers. It has always been my understanding that goldfish can tolerate less than ideal conditions, while koi cannot. Well, apparently you are right. I did some research and found this article: http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art3503.asp Excuse my ignorance. Chalk it up to many years of experience raising tropical and salt water fish, and virtually none with cold water species (except for the last year or so). Everyone who has goldfish should read that artcicle. You live and learn, right? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
#29
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aeration
wrote in message ... the only part she got wrong was em being cold water fish. they arent. their metabolism peaks at 75-78oF. Ingrid I thought something was wrong with that, but I wanted to hear it from somebody else first. " George" wrote: wrote in message ... no.. those are bettas can gulp air. the idea comes from the goldfish bowl and the carnival GF. most all die, but the occasional one survives horrible conditions. fancy GF dont survive long at all. it is always the commons that make it. Ingrid " George" wrote: Really? I don't understand why. Maybe I am mistaken, but aren't they natural air gulpers. It has always been my understanding that goldfish can tolerate less than ideal conditions, while koi cannot. Well, apparently you are right. I did some research and found this article: http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art3503.asp Excuse my ignorance. Chalk it up to many years of experience raising tropical and salt water fish, and virtually none with cold water species (except for the last year or so). Everyone who has goldfish should read that artcicle. You live and learn, right? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
#30
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aeration
thanks for the info grubber
On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 12:33:27 GMT, "Grubber" wrote: "Newbie Bill" wrote in message om... I have a small 200 gph pump (very low power usage) submerged in my pond for additional aeration - just as added 'insurance'. The output is below the water so the water is just 'bubbling' like a natural spring might. I do not want it splashing for several reasons. I have been told it is the breaking of the surface which helps to oxidize the water. Questions: 1) Is this actually doing me some good. 2)Aesthetics aside would an airstone attached be significantly better. Thanxx Bill Brister - Austin, Texas Try making a venturi out of pvc. This will give you the circulation benefit of the pump with more aeration than an airstone. You can also make it for a couple of bucks, so it's cheap to try. Basically, your pump output goes into a piece of horizontal 1/2" pvc a couple of feet long. Cut the pvc in half and add a T with the opening pointing straight up. Get another piece of pvc long enough to fit in the T and stick a couple inches out of the water. Cut one end at a 45 degree angle and shave the pvc so it will fit past the stop in the T. It needs to get down into the T and get into the flow coming from the pump, with the open angle away from the pump. The water flow sucks air in from the upright pvc and bubbles out of the lower pipe. Here's a possibly better explanation, with a different method. With a small pump, I'd stick with 1/2" pvc and shaving the pvc may be easier than finding tubing that will fit inside the 1/2" pvc. http://spaghoops.com/pond/venturi.htm I'm also in Austin btw. My fish love playing in the bubbles, although I've got a 1600 gph pump on the venturi which gives them a pretty good current to play in. |
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