Did you mean algicide?

Yes. blush

I'm not sure. The math is too hard for this time of day, but intuitively it
seems to me that if your pH is low enough to protect the fish from ammonia

Very often the thing that has happened to newbies, that have had a pond for
awhile and have escaped anything serious, suffer a filter crash, because
they haven't been monitoring or maintaining their ponds correctly. This
drops the pH (as Ingrid mentioned the organic load, and the drop in
buffering) and the ammonia builds up, but isn't toxic due to the low pH.
You change 50% of the water, the old ammonia & new off the critters, is now
toxic as the filter is still not working. This has happened often enough
now that thru the KHA program we are not to suggest a water change till we
know what's going on with the water. The KHA program is much like the
Master Gardener program, you can't just shoot from the hip, as people can
come back and sue. Obviously there is protection in usenet, as they would
have to track you down, but still not responsible. So....

you couldn't worsen the ammonia toxicity.

Yes, you could. I've had it happen.

However, if you're using municipal source water, these days, you almost guarantee that
every water change adds ammonia.

And thus, if they have Amquell or equivalent added to the water prior to
the change, then make the change. At least we won't kill or stress the
remaining critters.

We still have to figure out why there is a problem and people aren't going
to get away without having test kits, unless they belong to a club and have
a KHA they can drop water samples off with. Best friend is okay too, but
KHA's (in my local club's case) test kits are paid for by the club. ~ jan



~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

OK.. I am really thinking about replacing all the water in an aquarium, and I see the
point you are making about a pond. there are dangers even when ponds spring a leak
and people rush to refill them often with ice cold water, for example. but of course
people should have test kits of all kinds before they get their first fish.

I would say that someone using irrigation canal water contaminated with who knows
what is not going to be helped by squirting a bit of ammo lock in the pond either.
Ingrid

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
I'm sorry, but I just have to disagree with this one point. Since we have
no idea if the PWP (Person With Problem) even has decent water to exchange
with. Locally we have people take it straight from the irrigation canal
with no idea that the controllers add strong algae periodically. Plus, and
I restate, if there is ammonia, can make things worst with a water exchange
of higher pH. At a bare minimum people should have an ammonia tester.


On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:00:43 GMT, wrote:
just like there is no downside to doing water changes.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

OK.. I am really thinking about replacing all the water in an aquarium, and I see the
point you are making about a pond. there are dangers even when ponds spring a leak
and people rush to refill them often with ice cold water, for example. but of course
people should have test kits of all kinds before they get their first fish.

I would say that someone using irrigation canal water contaminated with who knows
what is not going to be helped by squirting a bit of ammo lock in the pond either.
Ingrid

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
I'm sorry, but I just have to disagree with this one point. Since we have
no idea if the PWP (Person With Problem) even has decent water to exchange
with. Locally we have people take it straight from the irrigation canal
with no idea that the controllers add strong algae periodically. Plus, and
I restate, if there is ammonia, can make things worst with a water exchange
of higher pH. At a bare minimum people should have an ammonia tester.


On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:00:43 GMT, wrote:
just like there is no downside to doing water changes.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

"the increase in toxicity while the rise in pH from 7.0 to 9.0 is responsible for
90%." a pond with reasonable buffering in the tap water (people who arent using
softened water) will not rise over pH 8. the "new" water will replenish the buffer
if it was low for some reason.

so the answer for fish seriously in trouble is to replace 100% of the water, that is,
drain the pond and move the fish to fresh water. Ingrid


~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
Very often the thing that has happened to newbies, that have had a pond for
awhile and have escaped anything serious, suffer a filter crash, because
they haven't been monitoring or maintaining their ponds correctly. This
drops the pH (as Ingrid mentioned the organic load, and the drop in
buffering) and the ammonia builds up, but isn't toxic due to the low pH.
You change 50% of the water, the old ammonia & new off the critters, is now
toxic as the filter is still not working.

However, if you're using municipal source water, these days, you almost guarantee that
every water change adds ammonia.

And thus, if they have Amquell or equivalent added to the water prior to
the change, then make the change. At least we won't kill or stress the
remaining critters.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

"the increase in toxicity while the rise in pH from 7.0 to 9.0 is responsible for
90%." a pond with reasonable buffering in the tap water (people who arent using
softened water) will not rise over pH 8. the "new" water will replenish the buffer
if it was low for some reason.

so the answer for fish seriously in trouble is to replace 100% of the water, that is,
drain the pond and move the fish to fresh water. Ingrid


~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
Very often the thing that has happened to newbies, that have had a pond for
awhile and have escaped anything serious, suffer a filter crash, because
they haven't been monitoring or maintaining their ponds correctly. This
drops the pH (as Ingrid mentioned the organic load, and the drop in
buffering) and the ammonia builds up, but isn't toxic due to the low pH.
You change 50% of the water, the old ammonia & new off the critters, is now
toxic as the filter is still not working.

However, if you're using municipal source water, these days, you almost guarantee that
every water change adds ammonia.

And thus, if they have Amquell or equivalent added to the water prior to
the change, then make the change. At least we won't kill or stress the
remaining critters.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote in message
...
OK.. I am really thinking about replacing all the water in an aquarium,
and I see the
point you are making about a pond. there are dangers even when ponds
spring a leak
and people rush to refill them often with ice cold water, for example. but
of course
people should have test kits of all kinds before they get their first
fish.

I would say that someone using irrigation canal water contaminated with
who knows
what is not going to be helped by squirting a bit of ammo lock in the pond
either.
snip

I agree. I don't know what "irrigation canal water" means, but it sounds
scary. Sounds to me like it could be riddled with run off? Fertilizer?


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

wrote in message
...
OK.. I am really thinking about replacing all the water in an aquarium,
and I see the
point you are making about a pond. there are dangers even when ponds
spring a leak
and people rush to refill them often with ice cold water, for example. but
of course
people should have test kits of all kinds before they get their first
fish.

I would say that someone using irrigation canal water contaminated with
who knows
what is not going to be helped by squirting a bit of ammo lock in the pond
either.
snip

I agree. I don't know what "irrigation canal water" means, but it sounds
scary. Sounds to me like it could be riddled with run off? Fertilizer?


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

wrote in message
...
"the increase in toxicity while the rise in pH from 7.0 to 9.0 is
responsible for
90%." a pond with reasonable buffering in the tap water (people who arent
using
softened water) will not rise over pH 8. the "new" water will replenish
the buffer
if it was low for some reason.

so the answer for fish seriously in trouble is to replace 100% of the
water, that is,
drain the pond and move the fish to fresh water. Ingrid

Uh don't you mean...

Move the fish to fresh water and THEN drain the pond.




--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

wrote in message
...
"the increase in toxicity while the rise in pH from 7.0 to 9.0 is
responsible for
90%." a pond with reasonable buffering in the tap water (people who arent
using
softened water) will not rise over pH 8. the "new" water will replenish
the buffer
if it was low for some reason.

so the answer for fish seriously in trouble is to replace 100% of the
water, that is,
drain the pond and move the fish to fresh water. Ingrid

Uh don't you mean...

Move the fish to fresh water and THEN drain the pond.




--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
OK.. I am really thinking about replacing all the water in an aquarium,
and I see the
point you are making about a pond. there are dangers even when ponds
spring a leak
and people rush to refill them often with ice cold water, for example.
but
of course
people should have test kits of all kinds before they get their first
fish.

I would say that someone using irrigation canal water contaminated with
who knows
what is not going to be helped by squirting a bit of ammo lock in the
pond
either.
snip

I agree. I don't know what "irrigation canal water" means, but it sounds
scary. Sounds to me like it could be riddled with run off? Fertilizer?
================================
Not just fertilizers, this water surely contains fungicides and assorted
pesticides if it was used on crops.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"By the time you make ends meet they move the ends."
Pricelesswa
http://www.pricelessware.org
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I agree. I don't know what "irrigation canal water" means, but it sounds
scary. Sounds to me like it could be riddled with run off? Fertilizer? BV

The point was missed. The point being, we don't know what their exchange
water is, not that ammo-lock would fix canal water, that is full of run-off
(especially from this river) besides possible added algaecide. That was my
point. ~ jan ;o)


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

I agree. I don't know what "irrigation canal water" means, but it sounds
scary. Sounds to me like it could be riddled with run off? Fertilizer? BV

The point was missed. The point being, we don't know what their exchange
water is, not that ammo-lock would fix canal water, that is full of run-off
(especially from this river) besides possible added algaecide. That was my
point. ~ jan ;o)


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
I agree. I don't know what "irrigation canal water" means, but it sounds
scary. Sounds to me like it could be riddled with run off? Fertilizer? BV

The point was missed. The point being, we don't know what their exchange
water is, not that ammo-lock would fix canal water, that is full of
run-off
(especially from this river) besides possible added algaecide. That was my
point. ~ jan ;o)


I getcha...much like it is not a matter of how a swallow grips a coconut,
but a matter of weight ratios.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
I agree. I don't know what "irrigation canal water" means, but it sounds
scary. Sounds to me like it could be riddled with run off? Fertilizer? BV

The point was missed. The point being, we don't know what their exchange
water is, not that ammo-lock would fix canal water, that is full of
run-off
(especially from this river) besides possible added algaecide. That was my
point. ~ jan ;o)


I getcha...much like it is not a matter of how a swallow grips a coconut,
but a matter of weight ratios.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:20:26 -0500, "Benign Vanilla" wrote:

I getcha...much like it is not a matter of how a swallow grips a coconut,
but a matter of weight ratios.

"Aaah, riiight, uh huh...." walking away scratching head wondering, what do
coconuts & swallows have to do with pond and water, and why would a swallow
want to grip a coconut? But hey, if it makes sense to BV it's okay by me.
;o) ~ jan
~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~