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#31
28-12-2004, 02:33 PM
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wrote in message ... salt levels in tap water do not exceed 0.1% (at least I havent heard of it.. mostly they are in the 0.06% range). For people with sick fish waiting around to get the proper test kits is not what I consider prudent. as long as the gills are OK the salt can be run up to 0.3% for a couple days, so a mere 1 teaspoon of salt per 5 gallons is really not going to drive the salt level excessively high. from 3 can be done safely without getting the water parameters, adding a bit of salt is safe without a test kits as long as the gills are healthy red. Ingrid EMERGENCY 1. check the water parameters: pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrates 2. do the fish physical 3. change some or all of the water 4. from the water parameters and physical decide on a course of action 5. if there is nothing specific, do the tub to tub method This is a perfect example of the dangers of salt. Two posts, similar instructions, but way different numbers, and NEITHER post suggests checking the current salinity before adding more salt. Suppose this fish is dieing from the salinity being high? My point is that recommending the usage of an additive for a pond or tank is dangerous without first measuring the level of that additive in the water. Suppose the OP is a newb, and was told to add a teaspoon of salt to his tank everyday to help reduce a build up of nuetrinos in is active carbon filter media? At this point, his fish are dieing because they are living in a concentration of salt that would kill even the strongest potato chip. Then they come on here and say my fish looks sick, what should I do? Several people respond ADD SALT!!! I am not saying salt has NO place, but like any additive, it needs to be tempered, and I see very little tempering of salt. -- BV Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb I'll be leaning on the bus stop post. |
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#32
28-12-2004, 02:33 PM
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wrote in message ... salt levels in tap water do not exceed 0.1% (at least I havent heard of it.. mostly they are in the 0.06% range). For people with sick fish waiting around to get the proper test kits is not what I consider prudent. as long as the gills are OK the salt can be run up to 0.3% for a couple days, so a mere 1 teaspoon of salt per 5 gallons is really not going to drive the salt level excessively high. from 3 can be done safely without getting the water parameters, adding a bit of salt is safe without a test kits as long as the gills are healthy red. Ingrid EMERGENCY 1. check the water parameters: pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrates 2. do the fish physical 3. change some or all of the water 4. from the water parameters and physical decide on a course of action 5. if there is nothing specific, do the tub to tub method This is a perfect example of the dangers of salt. Two posts, similar instructions, but way different numbers, and NEITHER post suggests checking the current salinity before adding more salt. Suppose this fish is dieing from the salinity being high? My point is that recommending the usage of an additive for a pond or tank is dangerous without first measuring the level of that additive in the water. Suppose the OP is a newb, and was told to add a teaspoon of salt to his tank everyday to help reduce a build up of nuetrinos in is active carbon filter media? At this point, his fish are dieing because they are living in a concentration of salt that would kill even the strongest potato chip. Then they come on here and say my fish looks sick, what should I do? Several people respond ADD SALT!!! I am not saying salt has NO place, but like any additive, it needs to be tempered, and I see very little tempering of salt. -- BV Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb I'll be leaning on the bus stop post. |
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#33
28-12-2004, 04:37 PM
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http://www.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/pH-Ammonia.htm
"Ammonia is toxic to aquatic life and toxicity is affected by pond pH. Ammonia-nitrogen (NH3-N) has a more toxic form at high pH and a less toxic form at low pH, un-ionized ammonia (NH3) and ionized ammonia (NH4+), respectively. In addition, ammonia toxicity increases as temperature rises." A low pH doesnt make ammonia non-toxic, it makes it less toxic. And toxicity is increased as the pH approaches pH 9.0. http://www.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/LimingPondsAquaculture.htm here is graph comparing the pH shift of hard vs soft water (high vs low alkalinity). In sufficiently hard water the pH does not approach pH 9.0. pH crash (down) is usually brought on by really raunchy decaying organic material in gravel or some really serious toxins and is not going to be "fixed" with ammo lock. I cant imagine this happening in a pond unless there was no buffer system OR, the water is soft and acidic to start with. With acidic soft water dolomitic limestone is needed to provide an adequate and stable alkalinity/hardness. In the case of sudden pH crash people generally use some baking soda to bring the pH up out of kill range, add aeration until they can fix the problem (move the fish out and clean the pond and/or change the water and/or add more limestone to stabilize the hardness). when there are no test kits the only thing to do when fish are obviously in trouble is large water changes, or move the fish to fresh water. test kits may not show what the problem is anyway but waiting until the kits can be obtained may be fatal. Yes, ammo lock etc works, but I cannot imagine people having that quantity of stuff (and costly too) on hand to treat large ponds. People with soft water need to have a stash of dolomitic limestone (and dechlor if city water) on hand to treat the water during big water changes. Ingrid ~ jan JJsPond.us wrote: Perhaps, but in a pH crash, the filter quits working and the ammonia is non-toxic in the lower pH. If the water is changed with a higher pH, without treating the ammonia it turns it toxic. A large water can be very stressful. IMO, better to treat the ammonia, do a 20% change, check buffering adding baking soda if needed and add salt if nitrites are present. Prior to ALL that. Check all parameters and report, weigh all options expressed on usenet. ;o) ~ jan ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
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#35
28-12-2004, 05:00 PM
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there are some "additives" cannot hurt unless done way to excess. when fish are in
trouble and people dont have the "kits", adding a bit of salt, some dolomitic limestone (if the water is soft) or aeration cannot hurt. just like there is no downside to doing water changes. Anybody with really high salts is going to know it. an extra teaspoon per 5 gallons is not going to be significant. people with chronic problems with their fish are advised to have a complete kit including salt test kit. it is rare people have a problem with too high salt, the only ones I have heard about are those in specific places in the US who have water softeners AND the Na levels are off scale. Very rare. OK.. maybe somebody building a pond on the Utah salt flats. I only recommend moderate salt use 0.1% or less, I do not even recommend 0.3% for "treatment" which I think is high and excessive and difficult to get out of the pond fast if the fish are reacting badly. I dont know what a build up of neutrinos is as it applies to ponds. INgrid "Benign Vanilla" wrote: My point is that recommending the usage of an additive for a pond or tank is dangerous without first measuring the level of that additive in the water. Suppose the OP is a newb, and was told to add a teaspoon of salt to his tank everyday to help reduce a build up of nuetrinos in is active carbon filter media? At this point, his fish are dieing because they are living in a concentration of salt that would kill even the strongest potato chip. Then they come on here and say my fish looks sick, what should I do? Several people respond ADD SALT!!! I am not saying salt has NO place, but like any additive, it needs to be tempered, and I see very little tempering of salt. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
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#36
28-12-2004, 05:08 PM
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wrote in message ... http://www.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/pH-Ammonia.htm "Ammonia is toxic to aquatic life and toxicity is affected by pond pH. Ammonia-nitrogen (NH3-N) has a more toxic form at high pH and a less toxic form at low pH, un-ionized ammonia (NH3) and ionized ammonia (NH4+), respectively. In addition, ammonia toxicity increases as temperature rises." A low pH doesnt make ammonia non-toxic, it makes it less toxic. And toxicity is increased as the pH approaches pH 9.0. http://www.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/LimingPondsAquaculture.htm here is graph comparing the pH shift of hard vs soft water (high vs low alkalinity). In sufficiently hard water the pH does not approach pH 9.0. Great links, thanks. Very informative. I've added them to the directory on IHMP, http://ihmp.net/@/r. pH crash (down) is usually brought on by really raunchy decaying organic material in gravel or some really serious toxins and is not going to be "fixed" with ammo lock. I cant imagine this happening in a pond unless there was no buffer system OR, the water is soft and acidic to start with. With acidic soft water dolomitic limestone is needed to provide an adequate and stable alkalinity/hardness. In the case of sudden pH crash people generally use some baking soda to bring the pH up out of kill range, add aeration until they can fix the problem (move the fish out and clean the pond and/or change the water and/or add more limestone to stabilize the hardness). when there are no test kits the only thing to do when fish are obviously in trouble is large water changes, or move the fish to fresh water. test kits may not show what the problem is anyway but waiting until the kits can be obtained may be fatal. Yes, ammo lock etc works, but I cannot imagine people having that quantity of stuff (and costly too) on hand to treat large ponds. People with soft water need to have a stash of dolomitic limestone (and dechlor if city water) on hand to treat the water during big water changes. Ingrid snip I buy ammo-lock by the gallon every year. I have a leak in the stream of my pond, and therefore and forced to do water changes.  So I dechlor often.IMHO, every ponder, should keep enough dechlor on hand to do a 50% water change in the case of a disaster. I've had such a disaster and was happy to have it on hand. A few examples of such products: Kordon Amquel, http://ihmp.net/@/u Kordon Amquel, http://ihmp.net/@/vu Pond Amquel, http://ihmp.net/@/us -- BV Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb I'll be leaning on the bus stop post. |
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#37
28-12-2004, 05:14 PM
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wrote in message ... there are some "additives" cannot hurt unless done way to excess. Salt being one of them. when fish are in trouble and people dont have the "kits", adding a bit of salt, some dolomitic limestone (if the water is soft) or aeration cannot hurt. just like there is no downside to doing water changes. Water changes without proper dechlor can be very dangerous. So again my point is made. Recommending any sort of treatment without proper supporting information is dangerous. Telling a newb to do a 50% water change without mentioning dechlor is as dangerous as saying add some salt. Anybody with really high salts is going to know it. I think that is a bad assumption, especially when it is common to see posts like, "My fish look funny, so I added some salt. Will this help?" an extra teaspoon per 5 gallons is not going to be significant. It's not the amount I am concerned with, but the wholesale recommendation to add it without fore knowledge of conditions. people with chronic problems with their fish are advised to have a complete kit including salt test kit. I think that is good advice for all pond owners, whether the people have chronic problems or not. it is rare people have a problem with too high salt, the only ones I have heard about are those in specific places in the US who have water softeners AND the Na levels are off scale. Very rare. OK.. maybe somebody building a pond on the Utah salt flats. I only recommend moderate salt use 0.1% or less, I do not even recommend 0.3% for "treatment" which I think is high and excessive and difficult to get out of the pond fast if the fish are reacting badly. I dont know what a build up of neutrinos is as it applies to ponds. snip A bit of humor, that's all. -- BV Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb I'll be leaning on the bus stop post. |
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#38
28-12-2004, 05:14 PM
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wrote in message ... there are some "additives" cannot hurt unless done way to excess. Salt being one of them. when fish are in trouble and people dont have the "kits", adding a bit of salt, some dolomitic limestone (if the water is soft) or aeration cannot hurt. just like there is no downside to doing water changes. Water changes without proper dechlor can be very dangerous. So again my point is made. Recommending any sort of treatment without proper supporting information is dangerous. Telling a newb to do a 50% water change without mentioning dechlor is as dangerous as saying add some salt. Anybody with really high salts is going to know it. I think that is a bad assumption, especially when it is common to see posts like, "My fish look funny, so I added some salt. Will this help?" an extra teaspoon per 5 gallons is not going to be significant. It's not the amount I am concerned with, but the wholesale recommendation to add it without fore knowledge of conditions. people with chronic problems with their fish are advised to have a complete kit including salt test kit. I think that is good advice for all pond owners, whether the people have chronic problems or not. it is rare people have a problem with too high salt, the only ones I have heard about are those in specific places in the US who have water softeners AND the Na levels are off scale. Very rare. OK.. maybe somebody building a pond on the Utah salt flats. I only recommend moderate salt use 0.1% or less, I do not even recommend 0.3% for "treatment" which I think is high and excessive and difficult to get out of the pond fast if the fish are reacting badly. I dont know what a build up of neutrinos is as it applies to ponds. snip A bit of humor, that's all. -- BV Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb I'll be leaning on the bus stop post. |
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#39
28-12-2004, 10:24 PM
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sodium thiosulfate. 5 lbs 12.99 enough to do thousands of gallons.
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/.../5688/cid/1598 "Benign Vanilla" wrote: I buy ammo-lock by the gallon every year. I have a leak in the stream of my pond, and therefore and forced to do water changes. So I dechlor often.IMHO, every ponder, should keep enough dechlor on hand to do a 50% water change in the case of a disaster. I've had such a disaster and was happy to have it on hand. A few examples of such products: Kordon Amquel, http://ihmp.net/@/u Kordon Amquel, http://ihmp.net/@/vu Pond Amquel, http://ihmp.net/@/us ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
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#40
28-12-2004, 10:24 PM
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sodium thiosulfate. 5 lbs 12.99 enough to do thousands of gallons.
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/.../5688/cid/1598 "Benign Vanilla" wrote: I buy ammo-lock by the gallon every year. I have a leak in the stream of my pond, and therefore and forced to do water changes. So I dechlor often.IMHO, every ponder, should keep enough dechlor on hand to do a 50% water change in the case of a disaster. I've had such a disaster and was happy to have it on hand. A few examples of such products: Kordon Amquel, http://ihmp.net/@/u Kordon Amquel, http://ihmp.net/@/vu Pond Amquel, http://ihmp.net/@/us ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
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#41
28-12-2004, 10:54 PM
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On or about Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:33:30 -0500, "Benign Vanilla"
wrote something like: Suppose the OP is a newb, and was told to add a teaspoon of salt to his tank everyday to help reduce a build up of nuetrinos in is active carbon filter media? "Everyone knows" that neutrinos only live in the sun. Even "neubies." So if yours are building up, turn off the lights. Isn't that the "carbon cycle?" -- Crashj |
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#42
29-12-2004, 03:25 AM
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#43
29-12-2004, 03:57 AM
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wrote in message ... sodium thiosulfate. 5 lbs 12.99 enough to do thousands of gallons. http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/.../5688/cid/1598 snip SWEET!!! -- BV Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb I'll be leaning on the bus stop post. |
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#44
29-12-2004, 01:51 PM
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~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
I'm sorry, but I just have to disagree with this one point. Since we have no idea if the PWP (Person With Problem) even has decent water to exchange with. Locally we have people take it straight from the irrigation canal with no idea that the controllers add strong algae periodically. Did you mean algicide? Anything's possible in this wacky world, but why anyone would add algae is beyond me (a massive "algae-scrubber" filter, perhaps?) Plus, and I restate, if there is ammonia, can make things worst with a water exchange of higher pH. At a bare minimum people should have an ammonia tester. I'm not sure. The math is too hard for this time of day, but intuitively it seems to me that if your pH is low enough to protect the fish from ammonia (and as Ingrid points out, it doesn't eliminate the toxicity only lower it) if you did a 50% water change with even pH 9 water (assuming ammonia free - this is _not_ necessarily a valid assumption, especially if you're using chloramined water), you couldn't worsen the ammonia toxicity. However, if you're using municipal source water, these days, you almost guarantee that every water change adds ammonia. -- derek |
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#45
29-12-2004, 01:57 PM
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Crashj wrote:
On or about Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:33:30 -0500, "Benign Vanilla" wrote something like: Suppose the OP is a newb, and was told to add a teaspoon of salt to his tank everyday to help reduce a build up of nuetrinos in is active carbon filter media? "Everyone knows" that neutrinos only live in the sun. Even "neubies." So if yours are building up, turn off the lights. Isn't that the "carbon cycle?" Piffle! Neutrinos live it deep dark holes, that's why they're hunting them in an old nickel mine in Sudbury, Ontario. When they build up, _they_ turn on the lights. -- derek |
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